Leisure Battery choice and usage on holiday.

[Brambles]

wading through treacle - how right you are.

[Derek Uzzell]

StuartO - 2014-12-07 10:44 AM

 

Derek, have you read this:

 

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

 

I appreciate it's merely another opinion, but I found it fairly cinvincing.

 

I have read the A &N Caravan Services piece in the past (the company has been mentioned quite a few times on this forum over the last couple of years) and I’ve also read the engine/leisure battery-related advice in your own blog.

 

If one goes to a supermarket with the intention of buying a kilo of eating apples and there are two lots of apples on the supermarket’s shelves, with one marked “eating apples” and the other marked “cooking apples”, it seems to me that it would be perverse to choose the latter over the former.

 

That’s the situation here. Solomongrundy mentioned two batteries - Banner’s “Energy Bull” (£100) and Varta’s “Silver Dynamic” (£85). The former is marketed specifically for deep-cycle ‘leisure’ applications (which it’s plain from this thread’s title is what was wanted) while the latter is marketed specifically for engine-starting. The choice seems simple enough - ignoring the price difference, the Energy Bull battery must be judged the ‘right’ battery for Solomongrundy’s requirements, whereas the Silver Dynamic battery must be considered the ‘wrong’ battery.

 

I’m also going to suggest that, if one sought advice from Banner about whether an Energy Bull or Starting Bull battery would be the correct battery for deep-cycle ‘leisure’usage in a motorhome, they’d recommend the former and advise against the latter.

 

Although Varta’s ranges do not include a direct equivalent to Energy Bull specification-wise, if one asked Varta whether Silver Dynamic (non-AGM) batteries or Professional Dual Purpose (which are at least marketed as having an improved deep-cycling capability) would be the appropriate choice for motorhome ‘leisure’usage, I’m confident that Varta would recommend the latter.

 

At the October NEC Show I had a long conversation with Banner and C-Tek representatives about motorhome ‘leisure’ batteries, particularly the AGM type. I can’t say I learned anything earth-shattering from the discussion, but it supported Charles Sterling’s pragmatic views that, if one wants genuine deep-cycling performance, you need to opt for batteries specifically designed for deep-cycling.

[Guest JudgeMental]

when you specify an additional battery from my german agent they remove the existing and replace with a new matched pair...is this really necessary.

[Tracker]

One of the aspects from the A&N article that nobody has passed an alternative view on is the use of high current

devices such as motor movers and microwaves either direct or via an inverter and I can quite see their point that starter batteries, particularly those designed for stop/start technology, might be better suited to high drain leisure applications than conventional allegedly deep discharge leisure batteries which it seems to me no more appreciate being deeply discharged than their starter designated but closely related cousins?

 

Which also make me wonder whether to a large degree theoretical battery design is all smoke and mirrors to cover the cost of development and manufacture and is better designed to make the unwary part with more of their cash than they need to for most practical battery use purposes?

 

 

[Tracker]

JudgeMental - 2014-12-07 2:23 PM

 

when you specify an additional battery from my german agent they remove the existing and replace with a new matched pair...is this really necessary.

 

I wonder what they do with the existing batteries they remove, and how they ascertain that the two new ones are actually 'matched' in capability other than just by being of the same type and size as there can be as much variation in allegedly identical batteries as there is between different brands!

 

[lennyhb]

Although a lot of people poo poo Gel batteries as being expensive and unnecessary they have a lot going for them. A good Gel battery like the Exide often last well over 6 years, Stuart's ones are still going at 9 years old. Then can accept 80% discharge on a regular basis, the only downside is they take twice as long to fully charge.

If you plan on keeping a van few years they could work out to be the cheaper option.

[StuartO]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-12-07 2:09 PM

 

........ if one wants genuine deep-cycling performance, you need to opt for batteries specifically designed for deep-cycling.

 

One of the points made in the A&N article was that many MH electrical systems (such as the Electroblok fitted by Hymer) prevent you from deep cycling (by shutting off the batteries if they reach 10.5 volts) which would prevent true deep cycle batteries being properly exploited.

 

I think you might be taking the distinction between starter and leisure battery types (as labelled) too litterally Derek; the Bosch S5 really does sound like a radically new type of battery, well suited to a leisure battery role in a MH.

[kevina]

StuartO - 2014-12-07 7:28 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2014-12-07 2:09 PM

 

........ if one wants genuine deep-cycling performance, you need to opt for batteries specifically designed for deep-cycling.

 

One of the points made in the A&N article was that many MH electrical systems (such as the Electroblok fitted by Hymer) prevent you from deep cycling (by shutting off the batteries if they reach 10.5 volts) which would prevent true deep cycle batteries being properly exploited.

 

I think you might be taking the distinction between starter and leisure battery types (as labelled) too litterally Derek; the Bosch S5 really does sound like a radically new type of battery, well suited to a leisure battery role in a MH.

 

I don't understand their 10.5v figure, I have Victron gel batteries and at 80% dod they will be at a little under 12v. I'm not taking them anywhere near 10.5v even under load.

[Brambles]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-12-06 9:18 AM

 

I believe most long-term forum members would agree that this forum’s resident guru regarding batteries is “Brambles”.

 

He provides valuable (and expert) guidance on leisure-battery selection in his posting of 28 November 2013 2:31 AM of this 2013 discussion

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Leisure-batteries-a-waste-of-money-/33263/31/

 

 

Thanks Derek for the compliment.

I have deliberately not added much to this thread as really most of what I would say is indeed in the link posted by Derek and my previous ramblings.

On subject of high current drain by motor movers or microwaves there is not much concern as a quality deep cycle battery is more than capable. What is not so capable are cheap budget starter type leisure batteries. However there is a lot of merit in the grid designs of Varta batteries and alloys used which makes them outlast similar batteries from others.

 

One thing is for certain, resellers cannot be trusted to produce reliable specifications, only the manufactures supplying to commercial or industrial markets produce accurate data and when their marketing gurus get hold of it they love to change it to make it all sound very nice and rosy.

I am off to watch the Jungle....

[Brambles]

Quote from A and N site.

"Some Motorhomes are fitted with Intelligent Power distribution units which prevent any power being taken from the battery when it drops below 10.5v - 11v. Where these units are fitted, a Deep Discharge battery will not be allowed to Deep Discharge to the very low volts for which they are designed. If you have a German, Italian, French or Dutch built Motorhome with sophisticated Electronic Battery control, an expensive Deep Cycle/Deep Discharge battery is a very poor investment."

 

No 12 volt lead acid battery is designed to go below 10.5 volts. What is witten is just nonsense.

 

As to 3000 watt invertors, anyone using 3 Kw load on a single 100 Ah battery is fool hardy anyway and users will probbaly have two or more batteries in parallel halving the current drain on each battery.

 

There are a lot of good points rasied by A and N but also a lot of misinformation as well.

[Retread24800]

 I think I've said this elsewhere but I quite like the attitude shown by Stirlings on the Boating channel  Which battery is best 

'A Varta starter battery and Banner leisure battery user,

[Guest JudgeMental]

Tracker - 2014-12-07 3:11 PM

 

JudgeMental - 2014-12-07 2:23 PM

 

when you specify an additional battery from my german agent they remove the existing and replace with a new matched pair...is this really necessary.

 

I wonder what they do with the existing batteries they remove, and how they ascertain that the two new ones are actually 'matched' in capability other than just by being of the same type and size as there can be as much variation in allegedly identical batteries as there is between different brands!

 

Put them in stock along with the LHD headlights.....

[Derek Uzzell]

JudgeMental - 2014-12-07 2:23 PM

 

when you specify an additional battery from my german agent they remove the existing and replace with a new matched pair...is this really necessary.

 

If one specified an additional leisure battery when buying a secondhand motorhome (even a vehicle as new as your Possl was), it might be considered good sense to remove the original battery and fit instead a pair of brand-new identical batteries. This would remove any doubt about how the original battery had been treated in the past.

 

I've mentioned several times previously Exide’s recommendations on connecting ‘new’ batteries to ‘old’ batteries. The advice includes a good deal of latitude regarding Ah-capacity differences and warns that an extra battery should not be added if the original battery is more than one year old.

 

As will be very plain from this thread, there are differing views where ‘leisure’ batteries are concerned and it’s more straightforward to offer simplified advice about adding extra batteries (basically, the batteries should be the same make, type, age and capacity) than to complicate matters.

 

Clive Mott-Gotobed’s website includes the following section

 

http://www.motts.org/second%20leisiure%20battery.htm

 

and his advice in the first paragraph follows received wisdom.

 

I can’t see any obvious benefit in replacing the original battery from a new motorhome that’s ‘factory fresh’, but it might be sensible to do so on, say, the 2013 RHD Globecars you mentioned on another thread if one wished to fit an additional leisure battery. This is simply because the original battery will now have some age even though the vehicle itself may have had very little use.

 

I’d question that what your German agent does will always be “necessary”, but it’s definitely not bad policy.

[freegoo]

 

Just to add my 2p's worth... to various bits posted in this thread.

 

Taking a battery down to 10.5V is deep cycling a battery... in fact it is deep cycling it heavily if done so on a regular basis.

 

Varta/Bosch Silver Dynamic batteries are starter batteries unless you opt for the specific dual purpose or deep cycle varieties (the AGM (Start/Stop) ones are considered suitable for cyclic use). If you use the normal silver dynamic batteries and they fail within the warranty period and take it back to where you bought them from and said I have used this as a deep cycle or auxiliary battery they would not be covered under a warranty as they are being used for a purpose they are not designed for.

Indeed the plate construction might give you better corrosion resistance and possibly higher cranking due to its design but it is still not designed for deep cycle use, hence why a dual purpose/deep cycle range is also available from these manufacturers

 

All lead acid batteries have the ability to vent gases, this includes wet lead acid, AGM and even GEL. Some will vent hardly any gas during its life time, some will vent a lot depending on construction and charging. Some will have built in filters into the lids to help contain any dangerous/explosive gases and some won't. Some will have valves of sorts built into the lids that release gas only if the pressure in the battery goes above a predetermined amount. But because of this all lead acid battery manufacturers say you should never install a battery in a completely sealed box.

 

 

[StuartO]

freegoo - 2014-12-19 4:56 PM

 

...Varta/Bosch Silver Dynamic batteries are starter batteries.......the plate construction might give you better corrosion resistance and possibly higher cranking due to its design but it is still not designed for deep cycle use...

 

As I understand it they are designed for use in cars which automatically stop the engine and restart it when the vehicle stops, eg at traffic lights. They are therefore designed to cope with much more frequent substantial discharge/recharges than an ordinary starter battery and it is this cycling potential (which might be called not-so-deep cycling) which makes them suitable as MH leisure batteries, because MHs don't actually deep cycle anyway - their control mechanisms limit the battery to a relatively shallow discharge (compared with a true deep cycle discharge) by shutting things down before that can happen.

 

So if you want a battery which will cope well with daily not-so-deep cycling, as in a MH, a starter battery designed for stop/start engines appears to fit the bill and the extra capabilities of gel battery or a true deep-cycle traction battery are wasted on this application. At least that's the theory.

 

And if you were returning a Bosch S5 or Varta Silver battery under warranty, would you really say "oh by the way I have been abusing this battery by deep discharging it" when your MH system will not allow you to do that?

[Sophie2]

"So if you want a battery which will cope well with daily not-so-deep cycling, as in a MH, a starter battery designed for stop/start engines appears to fit the bill ....."

 

Which is presumably why our Hobby was fitted with such a battery for "leisure" (Exide AGM) at manufacture, a fact which at first puzzled me. Now I understand.

[Guest pelmetman]

lennyhb - 2014-12-07 5:36 PM

 

Although a lot of people poo poo Gel batteries as being expensive and unnecessary they have a lot going for them. A good Gel battery like the Exide often last well over 6 years, Stuart's ones are still going at 9 years old. Then can accept 80% discharge on a regular basis, the only downside is they take twice as long to fully charge.

If you plan on keeping a van few years they could work out to be the cheaper option.

 

Now you tell me *-) ............. :D

[StuartO]

Sophie2 - 2014-12-19 6:52 PM

 

"So if you want a battery which will cope well with daily not-so-deep cycling, as in a MH, a starter battery designed for stop/start engines appears to fit the bill ....."

 

Which is presumably why our Hobby was fitted with such a battery for "leisure" (Exide AGM) at manufacture, a fact which at first puzzled me. Now I understand.

 

My 2006 Hymer came with Exide gel batteries too and it wouldn't surprise me if Hymer and Hobby are still fitting them to new vehicles. Exides are good batteries and my Exides are still going well nine years later.

 

But it still makes sense to take a fresh look when something new comes along and from what I've read, Bosch S5/Varta Silver offer a worthwhile new approach. That's why I'm thinking of giving them a go. If other people prefer to stick to Exide gels as the know safe (but expensive) bet rather than risk something different, that's fine by me.

[lennyhb]

Hymer now fit Banner 95 A/H Agm batteries.

[rupert123]

StuartO - 2014-12-19 8:39 PM

 

Sophie2 - 2014-12-19 6:52 PM

 

"So if you want a battery which will cope well with daily not-so-deep cycling, as in a MH, a starter battery designed for stop/start engines appears to fit the bill ....."

 

Which is presumably why our Hobby was fitted with such a battery for "leisure" (Exide AGM) at manufacture, a fact which at first puzzled me. Now I understand.

 

My 2006 Hymer came with Exide gel batteries too and it wouldn't surprise me if Hymer and Hobby are still fitting them to new vehicles. Exides are good batteries and my Exides are still going well nine years later.

 

But it still makes sense to take a fresh look when something new comes along and from what I've read, Bosch S5/Varta Silver offer a worthwhile new approach. That's why I'm thinking of giving them a go. If other people prefer to stick to Exide gels as the know safe (but expensive) bet rather than risk something different, that's fine by me.

The Varta is brilliant, my 100ah one does the job better than any battery I have had. We never stay off hookup for more than about three days but my single battery copes with this fine, no need for second battery, solar panels etc. For £85 a five year warranty, unless you are daft enough to tell supplier you are not using as intended of course, it works and is totally sealed.

[lennyhb]

rupert123 - 2014-12-19 10:13 PM

 

, it works and is totally sealed.

 

Just to be pedantic Henry, there is no such thing as a totally sealed lead acid battery all lead acid battery including Gel & AGM battery have a vent. They are semi sealed and have a vent that will release over a certain pressure, otherwise under fault condition the battery could explode.

[freegoo]

 

I agree if something new comes along it is worth a look... and also if the battery you have is over engineered for what you use it for... why not get a cheaper one which will do the job..

 

 

The varta silver dynamic batteries are not for start stop.... only their AGM and EFB batteries are at which point other "good" wet deep cycle batteries become the cheaper buy like exide, banner

 

 

I just try and get the right product for the right job.... maybe I am a sucker for what the manufacturers say although I am sure the better reputation brands try and do the right thing themselves... but it gives me peace of mind...

[rupert123]

lennyhb - 2014-12-20 9:27 AM

 

rupert123 - 2014-12-19 10:13 PM

 

, it works and is totally sealed.

 

Just to be pedantic Henry, there is no such thing as a totally sealed lead acid battery all lead acid battery including Gel & AGM battery have a vent. They are semi sealed and have a vent that will release over a certain pressure, otherwise under fault condition the battery could explode.

I know that and pedantic is right Lennie, you said it. However you know full well what I mean, for all practical purpose they are sealed, you can turn them upside down and they can be sent through the post with no leaks.

[Brambles]

Just to clarify. Flooded batteries cannot be turned upside down. unlike Gel and AGM.

 

[Retread24800]

I wonder if I shall worry about the battery leaking the next time I hang inverted in my seat belt.

N.B Is the virulence of an argument directly proportional to the price paid for the product?