Yet another battery question

[lennyhb]

After digesting this thread it looks like Gel is still king for serious off grid use.

[StuartO]

Brambles - 2014-12-22 8:03 PM

 

Your 65% of capacity put another way is called 45% dod. .....

 

Or even 35% dod? It took me ages to work out that the Exide diagram was counting dod fom the bottom, as it were.

 

Anyone know where there's an equivalent graph for the Bosch S5?

[Brambles]

StuartO - 2014-12-23 10:36 AM

 

Brambles - 2014-12-22 8:03 PM

 

Your 65% of capacity put another way is called 45% dod. .....

 

Or even 35% dod? It took me ages to work out that the Exide diagram was counting dod fom the bottom, as it were.

 

Anyone know where there's an equivalent graph for the Bosch S5?

 

Just testing your were on the ball!!! ( OOPS! apologies for my error.)

Yep! the charts can be confusing. You always have to look closely to see what they mean.

 

[freegoo]

The only thing I have ever found on Varta/Bosch is the below

 

http://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/products/leisure/professional-dual-purpose/

 

showing the dual purpose LFD/LFS range at

 

"Long lasting – up to twice the cyclic stability of conventional flooded batteries (up to 200 cycles @ 50% DOD)"

 

Does that mean the normal range of Varta is 100cycles @ 50% or that a normal car battery would be 100cycles and the normal Varta would possible give more at around 150cycles @ 50%

 

 

(?)

[StuartO]

I've been researching Bosch technical information and although I haven't found an equivalent to the Exide graph yet, I have found reference to the S5 "powerframe technology" liquid batteries delivering 30% more cycles (i.e. a total of 130%) compared to ordinary liquid batteries and S6 AGM batteries delivering 300% cycles, compared with liquid batteries.

 

If we read across the techinal information from Exide and Bosch, both good makes, S5 improves on ordinary liquid batteries in rapid charge and cycle life but only to 130% in terms of cycles (i.e.service life) as a leisure battery, which isn't wonderful.

 

AGM charges faster than gel but although much better than liquid types in terms of cycles (three times as many) they are not quite as durable as gel batteries, which deliver four or more times as many cycles.

 

I have to compare prices yet, but assuming they are in proportion, it's looking like the best overall bet for replacement leisure batteries for me, because I discharge only down to 65% capacity (35% dod) with an Electoblok and Solar Panel Charger, as often on EHU as not, might be good quality AGM batteries, rather than the gel type I have at the moment or the S5 I was considering.

 

My solar panels recharge completely each day during summer, so it probably doesn't really matter whether I'm on EHU or not except in winter. My solar panels recharge completely each day with gel batteries anyway, so the more rapid charging of AGMs and liquids counts for little.

 

It's cost per cycle of service life which seems to dominate the evaluation for me. AGMs give three quarters of the cycle life of gels and three times as much as liquids, although maybe only twice as much as S5s. There is a small weight penalty with AGMs, which are heavier per ampere hour of capacity than gel batteries but I don't think that's critical.

 

So maybe I should be going for Bosch S6 AGMs rather than replacement Exide G80 gels or Bosch S5 powerframe liquids, as leisure batteries, depending on price. The length of guarantee probably won;t matter because in my MH, with the same pattern of use, the batteries will outlive their guarantee period anyway. A Bosch S5 would be perfectly OK as a starter battery for the MH, had I not recently replaced it with a Fulmen in France, and its five year guarantee is comforting.

 

The same arguments won't necessarily apply to other motorhomers because the pattern of use of your MH makes a big difference. If you anticiapte discharging below 35% dod regularly the extra durability of gels will probably count for more. If you are mostly on EHU so your evening load is taken by the EHU so that your battery discharges very little, then S5s would probably have an adeqaute service life and be cheaper.

 

Time to research prices.

[Derek Uzzell]

The following leisure-vehicle manufacturers currently fit Banner batteries (either “Energy Bul” or "Running Bull AGM”) as original equipment (OE)

 

Airstream

Auto-Trail

Chausson

Dethleffs

East Neuk

Hymer

LMC

Murvi

Pilote

Rapido

Vantage

Wildax

 

As far as I’m aware no motorhome manufacturer currently fits Bosch or Varta batteries as OE for ’leisure’ usage. It’s possible that some still fit Exide gel-type (Carthago, Hobby?) as OE but manufacturers that have traditionally chosen gel batteries (eg. Hymer) have now generally switched to AGM.

 

What I’m going to suggest is that, rather than fixate on Bosch/Varta products as potential replacements for your aged Exides, you ought to be looking at other makes of battery as well. As plenty of reputable leisure-vehicle manufacturers have chosen the Banner brand, and Banner batteries have performed well in independent testing (and no manufacturer has apparently chosen Bosch/Varta ‘leisure’ batteries as OE), logically Banner should be at the very top of your list of possible replacements.

[Brambles]

Agree with Derek re Banner.

Another in this league is the Exide ET650 (90Ah) and have found at £131. It has a cycle life of around 500 and is similar to the old obsolete Varta offerings and like the Banner is a proper semi traction..

http://www.exide.com/Media/files/Downloads/TransEuro/ML/EXIDE_ML_Leaflet_Marine_EN.pdf

 

The Exide is more expensive but will have lower water comsumption and self discharge. As you have solar panels self discharge is not an issue, but water consumption may be.

 

The advantage of the Banner Energy Bull and Exide ETseries is you can top up the electrolyte with water. Most of the others and certainly AGM and Gel are sealed against maintenance. Mind you does not stop me with wet flooded if there is a single piece cap assembly which can be prized off. (It is the only reason I am still running my original starter battery ( 2003) and been topped up a few times. Mind you it is on it's last legs. Strained a bit starting today after sitting for 2 weeks.

 

 

[Sophie2]

Our Hobby has a Exide EK900 "Micro Hybrid" AGM which isn't featured at all in the Exide pdf file shown above. Any idea where it would fit in with those-is that "hybrid" a synonym for "Dual" ??

 

The "EK" series doesn't feature in the link provided by Brambles either!

[StuartO]

This subject really is a complex field and I suspect everyone who is contributing to this thread is also learning from it. Thanks for the tip not to ignore Banner, which I won't. I have looked at the Banner website and they are clearly big players but I'm still using the Exide and Bosch ranges as my study sample for now because I'm still trying to understand the fundamentals. Once I've chosen a type of battery I'll broaden my search to other manufacturers.

 

It's not an easy journey of discovery because although some manaufacturers recognise motorhomes as a specific market, they don't design a battery specifically for motorhomes, merely recommend which of their range is the best fit. And the variables in personal use of motorhomes are clearly a big factor, so there probably isn't really one right answer - or at least it's not looking that way at the moment.

 

Having done the Christmas shopping, I can sit by the fire and research this subject to get at least the main factors in my head and perhaps develop an algorhythm for motorhome battery choice. Thanks for the resources and tips which are emerging on this thread, it's very helpful stuff. MY brain is hurting a bit already but let's persist, I think we are getting somewhere useful.

[rupert123]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-12-23 2:02 PM

 

The following leisure-vehicle manufacturers currently fit Banner batteries (either “Energy Bul” or "Running Bull AGM”) as original equipment (OE)

 

Airstream

Auto-Trail

Chausson

Dethleffs

East Neuk

Hymer

LMC

Murvi

Pilote

Rapido

Vantage

Wildax

 

As far as I’m aware no motorhome manufacturer currently fits Bosch or Varta batteries as OE for ’leisure’ usage. It’s possible that some still fit Exide gel-type (Carthago, Hobby?) as OE but manufacturers that have traditionally chosen gel batteries (eg. Hymer) have now generally switched to AGM.

 

What I’m going to suggest is that, rather than fixate on Bosch/Varta products as potential replacements for your aged Exides, you ought to be looking at other makes of battery as well. As plenty of reputable leisure-vehicle manufacturers have chosen the Banner brand, and Banner batteries have performed well in independent testing (and no manufacturer has apparently chosen Bosch/Varta ‘leisure’ batteries as OE), logically Banner should be at the very top of your list of possible replacements.

My answer to this is 'so what', the reason for this will be a very simple one, they got the best deal from Banner to supply.

[StuartO]

They almost certainly will be getting a special price because of the volume they buy, but it doesn't automatically follow that they would buy purely on price and fit the wrong sort of battery, surely?

[lennyhb]

rupert123 - 2014-12-23 4:37 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2014-12-23 2:02 PM

 

The following leisure-vehicle manufacturers currently fit Banner batteries (either “Energy Bul” or "Running Bull AGM”) as original equipment (OE)

 

Airstream

Auto-Trail

Chausson

Dethleffs

East Neuk

Hymer

LMC

Murvi

Pilote

Rapido

Vantage

Wildax

 

As far as I’m aware no motorhome manufacturer currently fits Bosch or Varta batteries as OE for ’leisure’ usage. It’s possible that some still fit Exide gel-type (Carthago, Hobby?) as OE but manufacturers that have traditionally chosen gel batteries (eg. Hymer) have now generally switched to AGM.

 

What I’m going to suggest is that, rather than fixate on Bosch/Varta products as potential replacements for your aged Exides, you ought to be looking at other makes of battery as well. As plenty of reputable leisure-vehicle manufacturers have chosen the Banner brand, and Banner batteries have performed well in independent testing (and no manufacturer has apparently chosen Bosch/Varta ‘leisure’ batteries as OE), logically Banner should be at the very top of your list of possible replacements.

My answer to this is 'so what', the reason for this will be a very simple one, they got the best deal from Banner to supply.

 

Please show us the facts to support that.

 

If it was down to cost they would be fitting wet flooded batteries, most of the German manufacturers have until recently been fitting Exide Gel's probably the most expensive battery they could fit regardless of any deals. Most have now changed to the Banner AGM and they are not cheap either.

[rupert123]

lennyhb - 2014-12-23 5:07 PM

 

rupert123 - 2014-12-23 4:37 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2014-12-23 2:02 PM

 

The following leisure-vehicle manufacturers currently fit Banner batteries (either “Energy Bul” or "Running Bull AGM”) as original equipment (OE)

 

Airstream

Auto-Trail

Chausson

Dethleffs

East Neuk

Hymer

LMC

Murvi

Pilote

Rapido

Vantage

Wildax

 

As far as I’m aware no motorhome manufacturer currently fits Bosch or Varta batteries as OE for ’leisure’ usage. It’s possible that some still fit Exide gel-type (Carthago, Hobby?) as OE but manufacturers that have traditionally chosen gel batteries (eg. Hymer) have now generally switched to AGM.

 

What I’m going to suggest is that, rather than fixate on Bosch/Varta products as potential replacements for your aged Exides, you ought to be looking at other makes of battery as well. As plenty of reputable leisure-vehicle manufacturers have chosen the Banner brand, and Banner batteries have performed well in independent testing (and no manufacturer has apparently chosen Bosch/Varta ‘leisure’ batteries as OE), logically Banner should be at the very top of your list of possible replacements.

My answer to this is 'so what', the reason for this will be a very simple one, they got the best deal from Banner to supply.

 

Please show us the facts to support that.

 

If it was down to cost they would be fitting wet flooded batteries, most of the German manufacturers have until recently been fitting Exide Gel's probably the most expensive battery they could fit regardless of any deals. Most have now changed to the Banner AGM and they are not cheap either.

Lennie it is the way business works. The maker, of any product, will lay down the specs for that product and its various parts, in this case the battery for the van. The buying department will be given the specs required, they will then go and find a product that meets these for the best price. This may not be the cheapest product of its type on the market but as long as it meets the specs asked for, which will of course vary depending on the place the van fits in the market. You are making assumption's based on the retail prices, these have no relation to the market price for something bought in bulk. Surely this is a very basic business fact that everyone knows, or maybe not. It is very naïve to put up the argument Derek has, it does not work that way.

[rupert123]

StuartO - 2014-12-23 5:07 PM

 

They almost certainly will be getting a special price because of the volume they buy, but it doesn't automatically follow that they would buy purely on price and fit the wrong sort of battery, surely?

No you are correct they would not buy the wrong battery, see my answer to Lennie.

[Derek Uzzell]

rupert123 - 2014-12-23 9:43 PM

 

...It is very naïve to put up the argument Derek has, it does not work that way.

 

All I was saying is that

 

a) To the best of my knowledge no motorhome manufacturer currently fits Bosch or Varta batteries (of any type) as OE leisure batteries. If anyone knows otherwise, I’m happy to be corrected.

 

b) Plenty of motorhome manufacturers currently fit Banner batteries (either deep-cycle “Energy Bull” or AGM “Running Bull”). This is undeniable.

 

if StuartO wishes to compare batteries that might replace his present Exides, it would thus be logical for him to consider Banner products and not restrict his choice to Bosch/Varta.

 

It should be clear from my earlier posting that it was addressed to StuartO. What you do or think does not concern me.

[rupert123]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-12-24 9:36 AM

 

rupert123 - 2014-12-23 9:43 PM

 

...It is very naïve to put up the argument Derek has, it does not work that way.

 

All I was saying is that

 

a) To the best of my knowledge no motorhome manufacturer currently fits Bosch or Varta batteries (of any type) as OE leisure batteries. If anyone knows otherwise, I’m happy to be corrected.

 

b) Plenty of motorhome manufacturers currently fit Banner batteries (either deep-cycle “Energy Bull” or AGM “Running Bull”). This is undeniable.

 

if StuartO wishes to compare batteries that might replace his present Exides, it would thus be logical for him to consider Banner products and not restict his choice to Bosch/Varta.

 

It should be clear from my earlier posting that it was addressed to StuartO. What you do or think does not concern me.

This is a public forum, if you wish to direct a reply to a specific member without comment from others there is a clear means to do it. Nice bit of editing of your original post though makes it look a little less naïve.

[Derek Uzzell]

I don’t care if other people comment on my postings or not. I’m merely pointing out that I’m not interested in your opinions.

[lennyhb]

At the end of the day it comes down to type of use & price you are prepared to pay.

 

In Stuart's case he is a light user often uses sites & EHU so worth trying the Bosch/Varta and they will probably serve him well.

 

In my case I rely heavenly on my batteries rarely ever use sites never use EHU, if and when my AGM's die I would be very tempted to replace them with Gel's.

 

Thanks once again to Jon for all his help, with his help my knowledge of batteries keeps increasing.

 

Merry Christmas all.

 

Off now to try out my batteries for 4 nights, no sun so will be a good test.

[rupert123]

Derek Uzzell - 2014-12-24 9:58 AM

 

I don’t care if other people comment on my postings or not. I’m merely pointing out that I’m not interested in your opinions.

Fine by me but you will continue to get them. As least I have an opinion and my postings are usually based on personal experience or knowledge not by trawling the internet for answers and then believing everything I read.

[Derek Uzzell]

Sophie2 - 2014-12-23 3:53 PM

 

Our Hobby has a Exide EK900 "Micro Hybrid" AGM which isn't featured at all in the Exide pdf file shown above. Any idea where it would fit in with those-is that "hybrid" a synonym for "Dual" ??

 

The "EK" series doesn't feature in the link provided by Brambles either!

 

Details of Exide’s “Micro Hybrid” batteries can be found by clicking on the relevant entry here

 

http://www.exide.com/gb/en/product-solutions/transportation/our-brands-transportation.aspx

 

You’ll note that the “Micro Hybrid’ AGM batteries are oriented towards Start/Stop vehicle applications and that Exide markets alternatives (gel, AGM or wet-acid type) for caravan and motorhome applications.

 

(That’s just an observation - I’m not suggesting that your Hobby’s battery is in any way ‘wrong’.)

 

A description of your particular battery can be viewed here

 

http://www.autopointcarparts.co.uk/index.php/exide-ek900-019-agm-battery-1.html

 

The equivalent Banner battery would be a “Running Bull AGM” 59201.

 

The equivalent Varta battery would be a “Silver Dynamic AGM" 595 901 085.

 

The equivalent Bosch battery would be an “S6" 013

[freegoo]

Hi Derek,

 

I wonder whether the AGM battery in a manufacturers leisure/deep cycle range would be the same as the full specification start stop AGM.

 

Hence the usage of the Banner AGM in Motorhomes, and the fitting of the Exide EK900 AGM in Sophies Hobby

 

[rupert123]

lennyhb - 2014-12-24 10:04 AM

 

At the end of the day it comes down to type of use & price you are prepared to pay.

 

In Stuart's case he is a light user often uses sites & EHU so worth trying the Bosch/Varta and they will probably serve him well.

 

In my case I rely heavenly on my batteries rarely ever use sites never use EHU, if and when my AGM's die I would be very tempted to replace them with Gel's.

 

Thanks once again to Jon for all his help, with his help my knowledge of batteries keeps increasing.

 

Merry Christmas all.

 

Off now to try out my batteries for 4 nights, no sun so will be a good test.

Fair enough, although I still reckon a pair of Varta's will work just as well given the way the charging system works on a lot of modern motorhomes. However am not really sure of my ground here having no practical experience of gell batteries in a motorhome, although have dealt with them when I working for BP, and you are probably right not to take the chance. I simply object to Derek and his pompous attitude to any who dares to disagree with him, especially as most of his answers seemed to be cribbed from trawling the internet and then spouting this on here. Sometimes it is helpful but often misleading and ill informed. Anyway have a good trip, we are off skiing in January so home with Family at Christmas.

[lennyhb]

Blimey I'm agreeing with you again Henry, most of my postings are based on personal experience as well.

 

On our own this Christmas, youngest daughter moved to Bangkok in July and other daughter has gone to visit her. I invited ourself's to brother inlaw's, camping on his 3/4 acre in Kent.

[Sophie2]

Thanks "freego" and Derek for your replies and interesting links. Surprised to see the Stop-Start AGM's have been around for ten years! I've no issues with the Exide batteries so far but will probably know more after our longish term trip in March/April

 

PS- yes I can see that you're presumably referring to the "Exide Dual" suggested for Motorhomes as opposed to our "Micro hybrid"

 

I'll have to put my trust in Hobby for the moment until they've had a more comprehensive trial ! :-)

[Brabander]

Before I retired I used to be involved in the manufacture of equipment which incorporated batteries to start the diesel engines integral with our products.

As we were an OEM (original equipment manufacturer) and bcause of our purchasing volumes our battery costs had no real relationship to the prices paid for the same batteries in garage forecourts or at car parts dealers.

We determined the specifications for the batteries for the various models, defining key criteria such as CCA, AH capacity, cycle life, dimensions, terminals etc and the purchasing department than negotiated the best price.

As we fitted the batteries with the original manufacturers labels we naturally gave preference to a well known brand name. This meant that the cheapest supplier did not necessarily get the contract.

The manufacturer pitched his price on the basis that a buyer of our equipment might preferably replace the batteries originally supplied by us with the same model.

 

I therefore agree that if motorhome manufacturers replaced the Exide batteries with Banner ones that they first of all believed that the Banner batteries were "fit for purpose" and in addition acceptable to the motorhome buying public.

 

Ironically, in my company, we originally also purchased UK made Exide batteries but the company moved their manufacturing plant to Indonesia and we then changed to lower cost Italian made batteries.

The reality is that Exide is no longer the force it once was.

In any case automotive battery technology has advanced as many cars now use mild hybrid battery charging systems which increases the demand placed on automotive batteries.

In addition more and more equipment in vehicles is now electrically powered which further imposes constant loads on the battery.

Modern automotive batteries are therefore no longer just used to start the engine, they are expected to do a lot more!

I n fact their load cycle has converged with those of motorhomes!