New Ducato X-290 charging issues

[aandncaravan]

We have been watching Alternator outputs on vehicles for a while, not just for Smart charging, but primarily to see if any were being rolled out with 14.7v AGM battery optimisation, as being claimed by some Dealers.

Not seen any Fiats, Peugeots or Mercs with anything other than fixed 14.4v output.

 

We have seen a Transit with an active Intelligent Alternator, generally a multi pin Alternator with extra control terminals for the ECU, which was a conversion by a small company possibly on a base vehicle bought as a van, not as a potential PVC?.

Not seen any other Transit Motorhomes with anything other than fixed 14.4v output, so assume that when the base vehicle is ordered for Motorhome conversion the Ford factory reprogram the ECU?

 

When I first heard that the Euro 6 Fiats were going to have intelligent charging, I thought there might be significant issues, but now not so sure since the VW emissions scandal?

 

Bear in mind the following is not a description of a specific Vehicle manufacturers implementation, but a generalisation in the way Smart charging is now being used in Cars.

 

At Start-up, if the battery voltage is low, some Alternators have an Electrical 'soft start', to reduce the shock on the drive belt. Others have a mechanical Clutch for this function.

The Starter battery is deliberately kept at a 'low' state of charge, typically about 80% - 90% by the ECU reducing power to the Alternator Coils.

 

When the Driver decelerates, by lifting his foot off the Accelerator, the ECU triggers the Alternator to go to max charge. This places a load on the engine helping to slow the vehicle and charging the battery 'for free'. Once the accelerator is depressed, the ECU deactivates the Alternator until the next deceleration or if the battery voltage drops below a certain level.

 

The battery will be kept at a lower than normal level, so that the recuperative energy system is effective. However, it will revert to 'normal' charging if major demands are made of the Alternator.

 

In a Motorhome that has this Smart technology, the Fridge will generally be on 12v, taking up to 12amps, also the Habitation batteries, if they need charge will be trying to draw power from the Starter battery. This should result in the ECU 'seeing' a lower than ideal voltage at the Starter battery and so pretty much put out a 'normal' charge most of the time it is required?

It may not be the ideal but it might not be too far off from what happens now? So I am not sure we need to worry yet.

 

What might be an issue is if the Fridge is a low current compressor version?

 

 

Some systems, but not all, additionally boost the battery charge voltage as high as 16v when the battery is cold. Currently this is generally done via monitoring the engine temperature. If the engine is cold the Battery will also be.

By the time the battery is getting a bit too hot for the 17v, the engine will have warmed up and the ECU drops the voltage to a lower level. This may be back down to 14.4v, to 13.5 or lower volts. Some systems will drop from say 17v but stay at a higher than the usual 14.4v if the battery is low.

This generally depends on the battery technology as High Silver content batteries, such as that specified for the old Ford Mondeo, will tolerate a significant time at 15v, but AGM won't.

 

The Fords generally switch to a fuel saving 13'ish volt level when the battery is fully charged.

 

 

Exactly what Fiat adopt and how it is deactivated (assuming it can be) for Motorhomes is any ones guess currently.

 

 

My own feeling at the moment is that the system might be a 'gimmick' for the vehicle manufacturers to get into lower emissions figures when being ratified. That is, the Alternator system is only actually 'idle' under very limited conditions where all power consuming devices are switched off, no headlights, no heated rear window/windscreen, no Heater blower, etc.

If you start the emissions test with a full battery and almost zero load, the Alternator might be isolated for the entire test?

In the real World there will normally be a Stereo, blower, Wipers, etc maybe keeping the Alternator 'locked' into operation?

 

 

However, if the worst comes to the worst it should not be too hard to place a resistance into the voltage sensing feed to the ECU to 'fool it' into thinking the voltage is 4 points lower than it actually is? Or maybe run this voltage sensing wire from the habitation batteries, not the Starter battery?

 

 

 

 

 

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[euroserv]

Since this thread re-surfaced, i have done some checks and can confirm that the Euro 6 X290 Ducato still does not have 'smart' alternators.

They have introduced an optional heavy duty unit at 200A which replaces the previous optional 180A but that is all.

 

On the matter of Euro6c mentioned above; there will be various further developments by manufacturers beyond the mandatory Euro6 but none of these are required by law until such time as the specifications are released for Euro7; and that is a few years away. At this time Fiat are the only manufacturer that is not offering SCR (Ad-Blue) on commercial vehicles at all. The only variants where it is available are for passenger transport applications. This is very unlikely to change. I was surprised to find that SCR is not even available as an option for commercial vehicles for those that want it.

[lennyhb]

In the process of ordering a new Hymer with X290 Euro 6 engine have been warned by my Belgium dealer & Hymer that may need to fit a B to B, no one appeares to be certian yet what the situation is with the Euro 6 engines.

[Derek Uzzell]

My comment about Ducato going to an AdBlue system at the end of 2017 was based on a 3-page article “Understanding Euro 6” in the August/September issue of “Camping-Car Magazine”.

 

The article describes the two sorts of system (AdBlue or NOx Trap) being used on the Euro 6 base-vehicles on which most European motorhomes are constructed and - in the section “What will happen tomorrow?” - the following statement is made “Fiat has already announced that, at the end of 2017, its Ducato will convert to Adblue.” There’s no crystal-ball gazing: this is stated as a fact.

 

The article contains a lot of advice from a technical guru who writes for “Automobile Magazine” and his explanation for Ducato having to convert to an AdBlue system is not that the Euro 6 emission levels will alter at end-2017, but that the Euro 6.c standard includes a much more stringent acceleration-related test that Ducato won’t be able to meet using its present NOx-Trap system. He adds that even Euro 6 cars that currently don’t use AdBlue will need to convert to AdBlue to meet the Euro 6.c norm.

 

Fiat were extremely tight-lipped about what would happen with Ducato powerplants when the Euro 6 standard came in but, despite there being considerable on-line scepticism that the 3.0litre motor would be dropped, ‘unofficial’ information that became available in 2014 about the present 2.0litre and 2.3litre line-up proved to be completley accurate. As some Ducato Euro 6 variants already use AdBlue it’s reasonable to assume that switching the complete Ducato range to AdBlue would be straightforward. Time will tell...

 

Regarding ’smart’ alternators, if the reference to the Pilote ‘black box’ I mentioned earlier is correct, then it’s likely to involve Ducatos as that’s what Pilote normally builds motorhomes on. The editorial comment in the French motorhome magazine seemed to support the idea that ’smart’ alternators would be fitted to Euro 6 motorhome base-vehicles (resulting in potential leisure-battery charging limitations) and observed that the motorhome manufacturers were keeping pretty quiet about this.

[aandncaravan]

Been in touch with our Hymer technical contact in Germany and he confirms that the Hymers now going out on a Mercedes Euro 6 chassis do have an ECU controlled alternator. But the Fiat's don't and won't till next year.

 

However, just putting an electrical load on the battery, like turning on headlights, locks the Alternator into non ECU control, so a fixed 14.4v output. So there is not a major issue.

 

He says this advice of putting on the headlights is that given out to Caravan owners towing with a car equipped with 'energy recovery braking systems' where the Alternator might be 'off' for much of the normal time.

 

 

However, Hymer will also be fitting a Buttner Voltage booster to these Mercs ( the Black box as mentioned above?) which will take any input voltage between 10.5v and 22v and give out a steady 14.2v - 14.8v.

He thinks, the output voltage will depend on the 'battery technology switch' setting, such as Gel, Wet or AGM. So for the first time ever, Hymers will hopefully be properly equipped for the AGM batteries they have been fitting as standard for 2 years.

 

By the end of this year Schaudt, who already have the 15 amp WA1208 battery to battery charger, will bring out a 50amp unit for the Elektroblock EBL units. This will be backward compatible with non Euro 6 installations.

 

 

Before the Fiat chassis gets euro 6 next year, the new Schaudt EBL's will have this voltage smoothing/boosting built in. That is battery to battery charging with dynamic voltage control.

 

The existing Schaudt WA1208 voltage booster is a 'proper' Battery to battery charger but without the Battery damaging voltages/currents of some other units. It currently only supports Wet batteries and a 15amp limit, but multiple units can be used together.

 

Interestingly, the Hymer man believes, that the Fiat euro 6 motorhome chassis from 2017 will get the 180amp Alternator as standard with the 200amp one mentioned by Nick becoming the 'option'.

 

 

Does anyone have a good relationship with a technician at Sargent to find out their plans for Euro 6 and Caravan electronics when towed by 'Euro 6' cars?

 

 

Suggest this thread is retitled or started afresh with the content put in a more readable form? I don't mean everyone else's, I mean mine!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Hymer techie has just emailed more info on how the Black box is installed/works.

It basically goes between the Starter battery lead and the Schaudt Elektroblock EBL.

 

Hymer already fit chunky leads for charging so these are adequate without the need to upgrade or run directly between the batteries like other B2B units.

 

This makes it very easy to fit with seamless working with the EBL, apparently?

Maybe a good retro B2B option for 2015 and 2016 Hymers with AGM batteries?

 

 

So to come back to the original Post on fitting a B2B charger :

 

Chuns, maybe this is your best option of fitting a Hymer approved B2B without major restructuring of the wiring and working with the existing Schaudt boxes?

 

 

 

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[kevina]

The Buttner "Voltage booster" (Germans use the phrase "Ladebooster" for b2b chargers) is the same as the Votronic b2b charger that I have in my Rapido but with a different case. I've seen the Buttner versions installed in Frankia and N&B motorhomes at shows in the past.

 

The manual has installation diagrams for use with Electroblocs and several other motorhome charging configurations, but this was pre smart alternators.

 

Kev

[aandncaravan]

Kevina, the Votronic VCC 1212-25/45 units do seem to be exactly as you say, taking an input of 11v - 16v and creating a steady 14v - 14.7v dependent on the battery type Gel/wet/AGM.

 

Even if the Alternator is 'inactive', the Votronic would take the power it needs from the Starter battery to run the Fridge and charge the habitation battery.

It seems to have a safety mechanism built in that if the Starter battery is at 12.7v for more than 30 secs, it temporarily shuts down until the Starter battery voltage rises again.

At around 300€ not an unduly expensive option?

 

There is also wiring details showing it sitting between the Starter battery connections and the EBL exactly as the Hymer Tech said. Otherwise the power distribution unit and wiring is unchanged.

 

I would guess that this method would work for most Motorhomes regardless of the Power unit controller whether it be Arsilicii or Calira as the basic functionality doesn't change, just a good stable Alternator 'smoothed' input to the Power unit? Only proviso would be that the Wiring to the Starter battery is adequate for about 50amps

 

The Sargent units tendency to have multiple 'Split relays' outside the main box might mean installation is better between the Starter battery and the relays?

So long as it isn't wired like the Stirling B2B norm of direct Battery to Battery, bypassing the Power Controller mains Charger box. Only proviso would be that the Wiring to the Starter battery is adequate for about 50amps?.

 

I think this pretty much confirms that whatever Fiat rollout in 2017, there is a solution for almost all Motorhome builders.

 

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

aandncaravan - 2016-09-21 11:01 AM

 

...Before the Fiat chassis gets euro 6 next year, the new Schaudt EBL's will have this voltage smoothing/boosting built in. That is battery to battery charging with dynamic voltage control...

 

...Interestingly, the Hymer man believes, that the Fiat euro 6 motorhome chassis from 2017 will get the 180amp Alternator as standard with the 200amp one mentioned by Nick becoming the 'option'.

 

 

A couple of week ago I visited the ‘foire expo' at Saint-Brieuc in Brittany.

 

This show is held annually in early-September and has a large open-air area dedicated to the sale of new motorhomes and caravans. As one might anticipate the majority of the motorhomes being exhibited there were Ducato X290-based and a high proportion of these were 2017 ‘model year’ and fitted with Fiat’s latest 2.3litre Euro 6 powerplants.

 

As long as the original cab is retained it should be straightforward to distinguish between a Euro 5 Ducato X290 and a Euro 6 version. My 2015 model-year Euro 5 Ducato X290-based Rapido has a simple silver 'badge’ on its right-front wing below the mirror and (in my motorhome’s case) this two-part identifier has “150” on the upper part and “Multijet” on the lower part. The badge fitted to the cab of Euro 6 Ducato X290-based motorhomes is more ‘artistic’. I can’t find a specific photo off-hand, but the additional complexity of the latest badge should be apparent from the attached photo of a Rapido 604FF. The badge includes some red lettering and says “multijet 2” rather than just “multijet”.

 

There’s no doubt (as Nick has said) that a 200A alternator is optionally available for Euro 6 Ducatos as it’s shown as an option in Rapido’s most recent technical brochure.

 

Besides motorhomes based on Ducato Euro 6 platforms, at the Saint-Brieuc show there were quite a few vehicles based on Euro 6 Ford Transit and Citroen Jumper (Citroen Relay in the UK) chassis.

 

Evidently some of Adria’s 2017 model-year motorhomes will be Citroen Jumper-based, which should make these popular in France as that’s where the 2.0litre Euro 6 powerplants fitted to Boxers and Jumpers/Relays are manufactured (at Tremery in the Moselle departement). This motor is a variant of the unit that’s been used for some time in large Citroen/Peugeot cars (eg. Citroen C4 Picasso, Citroen DS 5, Peugeot 508). It’s said to be exceptionally quiet and torquey and (apparently) has a 220A alternator as standard.

 

It’s (perhaps!) interesting to note that all the Euro 6 powerplants fitted to Ducatos, Boxers, Jumpers/Relays and Transits have timing belts.

[aandncaravan]

The Techie guy in Germany we talk to has good English language skills, but I do sometimes have difficulty understanding him, as he probably does me?.

Maybe when he was talking about 2017, he meant 2017 'models' and I assumed he meant Year?

Either way he was confident Hymer had it covered?

 

I always thought that while Timing Chains were generally superior life (so long as you ignore the Vauxhall 2.2 Diesel and the early 2000 Nissan Micras, etc) they were noisier and absorbed slightly more power?

I wonder if the belts will require tighter tolerances re-stretch to maintain the Euro 6 emissions, so maybe have shorter change intervals than we have become used to? Then again Cam Belt technology is very advance these days?

 

 

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

In a recent French motorhome magazine a 2-page article discussing the 2.0litre “BlueHDI” powerplant fitted to Euro 6 Citroen Jumper/Relay and Peugeot Boxer vehicles quotes 150,000km or 10 years as the change-interval for the timing-belt.

 

 

[Walter]

Euro 6 Ducato charging issues - response

 

I agree that there are charging issues with modern vehicles, which incl. my 2018 Jayco Ducato campervan. Every vehicle manufacturer has heaps of microprocessors in their vehicles and can update software (firmware) any time as a running change.

 

Analysing performance is time consuming and measuring within a multi system setting brought forth some unexpected results. This video made me think:

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I was independently given the advise to install a miniboost (BMPRO).

[aandncaravan]

Walter then you were badly advised.

First no Fiat Euro 6 engine we have seen, even a new 2 month old model uses Brake energy recuperation.

The Ford Transits that had intelligent Alternators have the 'intelligence' disabled for Motorhomes.

 

As for the Sterling video on youtube you link to, it's laughable. No scrap that, it's exactly what everybody should watch as it vindicates everything we have ever said about B2B's

 

Mr Sterling should know that a battery will only draw the current it needs, about 20 amps per 100Ah battery in ideal conditions from a 180a Alternator. But he repeatedly states that 'a 150amp alternator' will try and put 150a into the batteries!!!

Imagine the fireworks if that were true.

 

He also states that the full power of the Alternator gets restricted by poor cabling. He intimates that if the cabling was any good it would pass the FULL power of the Alternator to the batteries. He finally admits (unitntentionally) that B2B's are superfluous, all you need do is update the wiring to get the full Alternator charge. Alleluia,

 

One other thing that is interesting from the video is that he now talks about more than 14.4v being bad for a wet battery, yet the Sterling B2B's reputation were built on fast charging at 14.8v.

Something we have always said was bad for a battery.

 

And people buy Sterling B2B's from this man???

 

 

Secondly, the $300 Miniboost you say was recommended is also a waste of time as it's output is a mere 8 - 18amps, no good at all for the average motorhome that can pass 45 amps with a decent cabling/split charge setup.

 

Anyone who wants decent Alternator charging need only look at updating the wiring.

For a £20 outlay you can transform most UK motorhomes, see the bottom of this page : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

 

 

It is the fat cabling that all B2B instruction manuals dictate you fit that makes the big difference, not the B2B itself.

 

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[arthur49]

Really interesting Allan thank you. We're changing vans at present (Renault Master base) and I'm wondering whether it will be a smart alternator or not.

So, if it is a smart alternator, your recommended beefed up wiring and big split charge relay will work just as well as on my current van? (You may recall I did what you recommended on current van (not 'smart') and get 14.34v at leisure batteries, engine at tickover, fridge off).

Second question. Out of interest I looked at the installation instructions for Sterling's B2B for smart alternators. The wiring recommended for 30A version is nowhere near 'fat'. ie up to 8m from starter battery to B2B, 6mm2 cable is OK! (I used 25mm2 in current van to leisure batteries over distance approx 3.5m)

[aandncaravan]

arthur49 - 2018-11-08 5:23 PM

 

Really interesting Allan thank you. We're changing vans at present (Renault Master base) and I'm wondering whether it will be a smart alternator or not.

So, if it is a smart alternator, your recommended beefed up wiring and big split charge relay will work just as well as on my current van? (You may recall I did what you recommended on current van (not 'smart') and get 14.34v at leisure batteries, engine at tickover, fridge off).

Second question. Out of interest I looked at the installation instructions for Sterling's B2B for smart alternators. The wiring recommended for 30A version is nowhere near 'fat'. ie up to 8m from starter battery to B2B, 6mm2 cable is OK! (I used 25mm2 in current van to leisure batteries over distance approx 3.5m)

 

 

Arthur, I think the Renault Master has a Smart Alternator, but don't know if it includes Brake Energy Recuperation?

 

Yes beefed up wiring will work on ANY vehicle and improve the Alternator charging of the habitation batteries, without the need for a Smart or B2B battery charger.

However you have to defeat the 'intelligence' of the Alternator by putting a load on the charging system.

The 'smart' Alternator only comes into play if it thinks the batteries are idle, if the batteries are being worked it doesn't drop down 12.5v.

So just having the Air con on, headlights, wipers, etc stops the Alternator becoming idle and de-activates the Alternators 'shut down' characteristics.

 

Much of the time when driving a Euro6 motorhome with Smart Alternator, it won't drop down to 'idle' mode because there is usually a load of some sort on the Alternator (exactly like two habitation batteries trying to draw a healthy charge?).

Something the B2B sellers don't tell you.

 

However, that isn't always ideal so in that instance a Smart Alternator charger, like the Schaudt WA12145 is a good idea (available from Brown hills).

 

 

We say on the web page that a secondary 6mm/50a cable makes a big difference, but recommend 10mm.

The Schaudt WA12145 instructions suggest 10mm to 16mm.

 

These units will take any input voltage from about 10v and turn it into 14.4v at the expense of current, but the greater the voltage drop the more current that is lost. You can't boost the voltage for free, so the better the cabling the more efficient it will be.

 

How can an 8 metre run at 6mm deliver the ideal solution?

I think I would trust the biggest motorhome battery charger manufactures in the world, Schaudt over Mr Sterling.

If Schaudt say a total of 10mm - 16mm then that is what I would use.

 

 

You fit the Wa12145 into the existing cable run from the Starter battery to the Sargent Power controller charger, not battery to battery.

Locate it as close to the Sargent unit as possible.

If you can get it right next to the power controller then the output cables will be very short and can be exactly what was there before, but beef up the input cables from the Starter battery, or even run all the way back to the Alternator.

If the existing cable is 6mm then add a second 6mm to 10mm.

 

You then just need to give it a D+ feed from the Sargent, or existing Split charge relay.

 

 

Suggest you get one of those Cigarette Lighter socket Volt meters, so you can monitor the Starter battery voltage as you drive before you do anything.

 

 

Instructions/Wiring diagram for a WA12125 at the bottom of this page : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-to-battery-chargers.php

 

 

It will probably have an AGM Starter battery under the Floor and these typically, according to the automobile forums have a 2 - 3 year life, so don't expect it to last as long as you are used to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[arthur49]

Thank you Allan :-D :-D