Steve928 Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-02-21 9:28 AM Instances of injector-related major problems with the Ford-made 2.2litre powerplant used in Transits, earlier Ducato X250s, Peugeot Boxers, etc. have been reported in the past. It seems to be ‘common knowledge’ in France, I think it's common knowledge everywhere really. Pre 2010 (when the piston crown thickness was increased) the 2198cc Ford PUMA engine had notoriously weak pistons which were fine when everything was in regulation, but sufferred piston crown burn-through should an injector go out of spec. Normally 4 small holes were burnt through the crown followed by the motor dieselling itself to destruction. All Transit, Land Rover and Boxer/Relay forums in most countries have a multi-page long running thread devoted to it. Here's a 174 page thread on a German motorhome forum for example: http://www.wohnmobilforum.de/w-t70226.html?hilit=ford It's one of those design errors that the manufacturers got away with and for which mostly the end user has to pick up the tab. And sorry to the OP but I have no info on recon engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 www.enginesolutions.co.uk www.exchange-engines.co.uk www.thanetenginecenter.co.uk www.remanufactured-engines.co.uk www.ivorsearle.co.uk www.reconditioned-engines.co.uk www.idealengines.co.uk You can also Google.........Peugeot Remanufactured Engines The first on this list have a Boxer engine in but they would nead your Reg. No. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 nowtelse2do - 2015-02-22 7:56 PM www.enginesolutions.co.uk www.exchange-engines.co.uk www.thanetenginecenter.co.uk www.remanufactured-engines.co.uk www.ivorsearle.co.uk www.reconditioned-engines.co.uk www.idealengines.co.uk You can also Google.........Peugeot Remanufactured Engines The first on this list have a Boxer engine in but they would nead your Reg. No. Dave Four of the seven websites are for cowboy firms with very questionable records, two are out and out crooked. So far only Vege and Ivor Serle seem good. The reason I asked the question is that I'm aware that reconditioned can mean just given a nice clean and made presentable, and many web based firms offer these, I have been doing my research but the suppliers of these engines are many and use lots of tactics to lure you in. I want testimony from users or properly rebuilt exchange units, either short or full. I am surprised that no one seems to have direct experience of these, as has been mentioned it was common many years ago to buy guaranteed gold seal units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Perhaps because modern engines are generally a lot more reliable and longer lasting than in years gone by there is much less demand for independent rebuilders of engines these days? Without volume to keep the skilled engineers and expensive precision machinery fully employed it would be hard to make a profit and when you add in the much closer tolerances of modern engines and the advanced materials sometimes used? I can quite understand why the traditional engine rebuilder with a sound reputation to uphold may well be a thing of the past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 My apologies to gocro who is ‘still waiting for someone that has actually fitted a re-manufactured unit ( with a costs, please )rather than a refurbished one.’ But it might help if we can establish what happened, and at least its bringing the thread back to the top. Steve928 - 2015-02-22 6:34 PM I think it's common knowledge everywhere really. Pre 2010 (when the piston crown thickness was increased) the 2198cc Ford PUMA engine had notoriously weak pistons which were fine when everything was in regulation, but sufferred piston crown burn-through should an injector go out of spec. Normally 4 small holes were burnt through the crown followed by the motor dieselling itself to destruction. All Transit, Land Rover and Boxer/Relay forums in most countries have a multi-page long running thread devoted to it. Here's a 174 page thread on a German motorhome forum for example: http://www.wohnmobilforum.de/w-t70226.html?hilit=ford It's one of those design errors that the manufacturers got away with and for which mostly the end user has to pick up the tab. And sorry to the OP but I have no info on recon engines. Interesting thanks, but unfortunately I can't read German. I have heard of seal failure in the turbo, where engine oil gets into the intake air, acts as fuel, and the engine over speeds to destruction. But I can't see how that happens through holes in a piston crown. gocro says 'suddenly the engine revs went through the roof and ran wild for about a minute then died' - I can't see how enough engine oil would get through a hole in one piston to do that, especially since the piston will have also lost compression and power. So why does the engine revs suddenly go through the roof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 gocro - 2015-02-22 9:53 PM as has been mentioned it was common many years ago to buy guaranteed gold seal units. It seems to me the market has split into specialists and cowboys, the 37 year old V6 Essex engine I'm having fitted in my works van has a couple of potential companies available to rebuild it...... http://www.burtonpower.com http://www.essexengines.com Naturally none of that helps you with your modern engine :-| ..............If I were you I'd pm Nick Euroserv and ask where he gets his replacement engines from ;-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 Peter James - 2015-02-23 7:30 AM My apologies to gocro who is ‘still waiting for someone that has actually fitted a re-manufactured unit ( with a costs, please )rather than a refurbished one.’ But it might help if we can establish what happened, and at least its bringing the thread back to the top. Steve928 - 2015-02-22 6:34 PM I think it's common knowledge everywhere really. Pre 2010 (when the piston crown thickness was increased) the 2198cc Ford PUMA engine had notoriously weak pistons which were fine when everything was in regulation, but sufferred piston crown burn-through should an injector go out of spec. Normally 4 small holes were burnt through the crown followed by the motor dieselling itself to destruction. All Transit, Land Rover and Boxer/Relay forums in most countries have a multi-page long running thread devoted to it. Here's a 174 page thread on a German motorhome forum for example: http://www.wohnmobilforum.de/w-t70226.html?hilit=ford It's one of those design errors that the manufacturers got away with and for which mostly the end user has to pick up the tab. And sorry to the OP but I have no info on recon engines. Interesting thanks, but unfortunately I can't read German. I have heard of seal failure in the turbo, where engine oil gets into the intake air, acts as fuel, and the engine over speeds to destruction. But I can't see how that happens through holes in a piston crown. gocro says 'suddenly the engine revs went through the roof and ran wild for about a minute then died' - I can't see how enough engine oil would get through a hole in one piston to do that, especially since the piston will have also lost compression and power. So why does the engine revs suddenly go through the roof? The diagnose of a holed piston was made by French Peugeot main dealer, at a cost of E98. Until the van returns home and we get the head off it cannot be established. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 Just re-discovered this post from last year from Geoff Cole http://tinyurl.com/psreou2 His breakdown is identical to my own, his result was £6.500 to fix. Looks like no rebuilt engine for CR05GOR a second hand unit with turbo will be sourced in all likelihood. Now finger twiddling for the next 8 to 12 days till he's dumped back onto my drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Your concerns over who to use are well founded IMO, last engine I got rebuilt by a so called specialist company lasted 3 years >:-( I've used JPDT in Flitwck for some jobs and they've been good, but not sure if they are still interested in these engines, maybe worth a call. Apart from any recommendation Nick might make, and I think I'd wait till then, there is a lad from Aberdeen who gives advise on another forum and works (or did last time I heard) for an engine rebulders, I could ask him if you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Hello all, My experience of the PSA/Ford engine is quite limited and I will refrain from giving any specific advice for this situation but I should explain the following..... If you agree to have your engine repaired by a dealer or other workshop you can ask for an estimate but besides the obvious gaskets and labour that will be required for a strip down and re-build there are far too many variables to predict what the final cost will be so you have to ask yourself whether you feel lucky or indeed, whether you trust the workshop concerned to do everything that needs to be done and nothing that does not. In either case this is a bit of a blank cheque exercise. If you send away your engine for re-manufacturing (either by exchange or your actual unit) you will have a price agreed up-front. This price will be based on the re-manufacturer's experience of the 'worst case scenario' where they have to replace pretty much everything. Make no mistake; If a part is found to be within tolerance and functional at that time; it will not be replaced but their price includes provision for if it had to be. At least though, if you accept this price; it will not increase but you will still have someone else removing and fitting the engine and there will be transportation costs too. I have found on many occasions that a factory recon engine can cost a similar amount to a 3rd party re-manufactured unit but not all engine offers from manufacturers are alike! Their definition of a complete engine may differ from yours! Check carefully what you will be getting! The warranties for these units are quite limited unless a dealer fits them; so your labour costs will undoubtedly be higher. While there are undoubtedly other reputable re-manufacturer's out there; I have used and completely trust Ivor Searle and Wege. Neither is cheap but peace of mind never is. I implore you not to rule out second hand engines; perhaps not in the case of the PSA/Ford variety but anyone else that is reading this should never completely rule out a used Fiat engine. I have bought many and never regretted it. While you may be afraid of the higher mileage and harder work under their belts; the chances are that these engines have been run up and down motorways carrying nothing much at least half of the time. They will have probably had an easier life than that of an engine that drags a house around for a few days and then sits doing nothing for a few months! It's a tough one. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 Thanks Nick ( Euroserv), finally sound , qualified advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Just wrote a load of nonsense! Hope nobody saw it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 The engine failed catastrophically with no warning or symptoms, always started on the button, never smoky and always pulled well with no missing or hesitation.When the van returns we will be stripping the engine of any reusable parts to sell on E-bay to recoup some of our losses and will report on the state of the bores and pistons. From what I've read cracked and holed pistons along with knackered turbo is what is usually reported, it may be the turbo causes the pistons to be damaged at the ridiculously high revs produced, though the French dealers thought the turbo would be OK, money for old rope for them as they new the AA was going to repatriate us, it was up to them to confirm the damage was terminal, they used the term ' the engine was ashes' handy to have a French speaking wife. I have a dash cam on board and was looking at the footage to listen in to their deliberations, only to remember that I have turned the sound off so as to offend our relations with all of my salty language, as we save clips of our travels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Just because one piston is broke does not mean the other three are? I well remember many years ago rebuilding an engine that had been 'written off' by the 'experts' on a Bedford CF having 'dropped a valve' and all it cost me was one secondhand piston and conrod plus the offending valve together with a new set of bearing shells and a full gasket set. All the add ons may be more complex and you may need a new turbo, and probably sensible to replace the water pump but the basic engine block gubbins and head assemblies surely are not that much different? I can't recall if it is belt or chain cam but a new belt if it is and check the chain for slack if it's that. Can't be that expensive surely in the right hands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 While there’s no doubt that the 2.2litre powerplant fitted to Euro 4 X250 Fiat Ducatos and all X250/X290 Citroen Relay and Peugeot Boxer vehicles is built/supplied by Ford, there will inevitably be some differences from the 2.2litre unit fitted to Transit Mk 7s and Mk 8s. Things like exhaust systems, intercoolers, etc. may need to be altered to accomodate differences in engine-compartment design. The engine mapping may also differ. However, it does seem to be the case that this particular type of problem that’s emerged relating to Transits also affects other vehicle makes using the Ford-built motor. This 2011 Ford Transit forum thread refers http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=92854 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-02-23 2:52 PM While there’s no doubt that the 2.2litre powerplant fitted to Euro 4 X250 Fiat Ducatos and all X250/X290 Citroen Relay and Peugeot Boxer vehicles is built/supplied by Ford, there will inevitably be some differences from the 2.2litre unit fitted to Transit Mk 7s and Mk 8s. Things like exhaust systems, intercoolers, etc. may need to be altered to accomodate differences in engine-compartment design. The engine mapping may also differ. However, it does seem to be the case that this particular type of problem that’s emerged relating to Transits also affects other vehicle makes using the Ford-built motor. This 2011 Ford Transit forum thread refers http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=92854 Sounds like Mr Ford has sold Mr Fiat a load of pups 8-) ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 A bit about injectors...... For anyone that is interested and wants a bit more background on common rail injectors I thought i would explain how they work; how they can fail and what the consequences can be. Fuel is provided by the high pressure pump to the rail. The fuel pressure is monitored at the rail and the pressure is regulated by a device on the pump. So far so good. The fuel is sprayed into the combustion chamber under very high pressure (from 300 to 1800 bar) and is very precisely metered in terms of the timing, quantity and spray pattern. This is all controlled by the ECU and decisions on what fuel to inject are made using information gathered from throttle input, air flow, turbo boost and manifold air pressure sensors. Back to the injectors.... Any surplus fuel; and it's a continuous flow actually, is returned to the fuel pump or filter by means of a leak-off system. There is a leak-off valve in each injector and this makes sure that the surplus fuel is recycled and is not able to seep through the injector nozzle either while the engine is running or when it is switched off. If you have a little extra fuel passing through while running it will barely be noticed but if it is doing so when switched off it will drip into the combustion chamber and start to cause problems. If it is left there in any quantity it will seep past the piston rings and will thin the oil in the sump and raise the oil level. Having fuel sitting in a piston crown when it is cranked over for starting will cause enough trouble but having too much of it below will be even worse! The pistons will be trying to push down into a container full of oil and this oil will have nowhere to go other than to push past engine oil seals or find other ways of releasing that energy. It's called 'hydraulic-ing' and it is similar in effect and just as catastrauphic as driving through flood water and having this being compressed at the top of the engine. Fortunately a problem with faulty leak-off valves will show it's hand in a couple of ways other than a high oil level; the normal tell tale is that you have difficulty starting the engine. If the fuel pressure is taking longer to build up than usual; it will take longer to start and unless there is a minimum of 300bar of pressure seen at the rail; the ecu will deny permission to start. A 'leak-off' test is a simple enough process and the amount of fuel passing the injector can be measured without removing anything other than the 'leak-off' pipes. This will not tell you if you have a problem with other injector seals or if it is weeping because of a faulty solenoid valve inside but this test does identify the most common injector fault. The possibility of more than one injector at any one time having a major fault is too small to worry about and one injector; even if it were spraying all of it's available fuel constantly would not cause a significant rise in engine speed. The only two events that can cause a serious over-revving of the engine are hydraulic-ing where the engine is basically running off it's own oil until it runs out or if a turbo seal fails and the device starts to suck the engine oil through the turbo and runs off it's own oil until that runs out. In either case, turning the ignition off will rarely stop the engine running! You need to remember, as the engine revs increase and the amount of smoke coming out of the exhaust becomes a major event that the only way to stop this happening is to stall the engine. And this can only be done by you! Procedure. Apply handbrake as firmly as you can manage. Push down the clutch pedal. Engage 3rd gear. Lift up clutch pedal very quickly. If you let it slip you may only burn out your clutch; this needs to be sudden and severe! The engine should stall. Do not re-start the engine! Getting back to the problems at hand I would argue that the problems that these vehicles are suffering are not caused by a faulty injector. It just does not make any sense. It makes even less sense for the dealers and even manufacturers to support this idea. The problems must be caused by turbo failure. The resultant over-revving of the engine could cause valve and piston damage and this damage would not be limited to one or two pistons either. If the injectors went into some sort of flood mode and were dumping huge quantities of fuel into the chambers the fuel pressure would drop below 230 bar in the rail and the engine would stop. What can you do? Apart from making sure that you are aware of the stalling procedure just in case something bad happens; you should keep an eye on the oil level of your vehicle. If the level appears to be going up the dipstick over a period of time you may have a leaking injector. It may even fix itself but you should seek advice and get it looked at. At the very least your oil will be thinner than it should be and wear will be increased in your engine; never a good thing. If no fault can be found at that time; get the oil and filter changed and monitor the level closely. These problems can sometimes fix themselves. They are sometimes caused by small particles causing valves in the injectors to stick open. Look out for oil leaks from either of the ends of the engine. The oil seals at the front and rear are the most likely to leak if there is an increase in pressure in the crank-case; caused by excessive or thin oil. The only example of this we have seen in a 2.3 Fiat Ducato (2007) was identified by an oil leak from behind the cam cover. The oil level was high. We removed the injectors; found one faulty one. Replaced the injectors, fitted new front and rear seals and filled it up with the correct amount of oil. No more problems and 100,000 more trouble-free miles. Hope nobody minds me going off topic a bit and I hope it helps. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 "Hope no one minds" he said. Nick, MMM should give you your own forum section and a fee :-D Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 A brilliant post. Thanks for taking the time to give so much information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 very informative Nick many thanks for that B-) Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Many thanks Nick, very well put and in easy to understand format with no techy blurb. Those of us of an age may remember the tendency of throttle pedals to jam open when accelerating hard pedal to the metal in the old days either by getting jammed under a carpet or being poorly designed or more generally worn out and the worst thing you can ever do is put it in neutral. Best, as Nick says, to keep it in gear, preferably a high one where the engine has less torque and use the brakes to bring the road speed down until the engine stalls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 While Nick may “...argue that the problems that these vehicles are suffering are not caused by a faulty injector. It just does not make any sense. It makes even less sense for the dealers and even manufacturers to support this idea. The problems must be caused by turbo failure...” there is plenty of credible evidence that the type of piston damage that is occurring with these Ford-supplied motors can be caused by injector-related faults. The results of GOOGLE-searches on “piston failure injector” and “ford piston failure injector” (omitting the quotes in both cases) will be seen to support that view. This report may also be worth reading http://www.sacea.org.za/.%5Cdocs%5CSAIT%20Referaat%20Inspuiters_2_Shrunk.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 The conclusion of the report was that the injectors were damaged by poor quality South African fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Good to know if planning a trip to Soweto though 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 euroserv - 2015-02-23 5:54 PM Procedure. Apply handbrake as firmly as you can manage. Push down the clutch pedal. Engage 3rd gear. Lift up clutch pedal very quickly. If you let it slip you may only burn out your clutch; this needs to be sudden and severe! The engine should stall. Do not re-start the engine! Nick Thanks for a very interesting and informative post Nick. Just a couple of things I don't understand. I don't understand why it it should be 3rd gear and not top gear? and frankly I would be worried about letting the clutch up sudden and severe on an overspeeding engine. I understand the point about overheating the clutch, but would stall the engine over a couple of seconds to reduce the shock - which I have done to test a clutch for slipping when there wasn't the opportunity for a road test. But I think it more likely to happen when the vehicle is moving, so Trackers scenario of bringing the vehicle to a controlled stop on the footbrake with the gear still engaged so the engine stalls seems the more likely to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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