Towing a bigger trailer - DVLA make it complicated

[Brian Kirby]

DJA - 2015-05-03 7:08 PM

 

It was the advice from Billggski I was referring to as he had not covered the B + E that remains if you renew a pre 1997 licence at 70.

 

But, not relevant to driving a motorhome.

[DJA]

I have to disagree Brian as it is relevant to driving a motorhome.

 

With B +E which you retain if renewing a pre 1997 licence without a medical you can drive a 3500kg motorhome pulling a trailer which in our case can be 1550kg. Our van is max 3450 kg but has a total train weight of 5000kg. If I only had B on my licence I could not tow more than 750KG.

[StuartO]

pepe63 - 2015-04-24 11:56 AM

 

..or , as you're only "in the process" of buying it, wouldn't an obvious option be to just buy one that will allow you to tug the trailer/car AND remain under the 8.25t train weight threshold?... :-S

 

Which is what I'm now planning to do. Carthago make a range of larger MHs and depending on the chassis, you end up with either 6,700kg or 7,500kg gross vehicle weight but in either case plenty of towing capacity. By choosing the smaller chassis (but the same engine power and bodywork) I stay within the 8,250kg limit. It took ages to discover this was possible.

[StuartO]

It might be useful if we conclude with a summary of what you can drive and tow with the various licence categories. As I understand it:

 

1 With the basic B (car) licence you can drive a MH up tp 3,500kg and tow up to 750kg.

 

2 With a B+E (which may be a grandfather entitlement and if so is retained without medical after 70) you can drive a MH up to 3,500kg and tow up to whatever gross train weight your MH's plate allows.

 

3 To drive a MH over 3,500kg (up to 7,500 kg) you need a C1, which is renewed after 70 only if you have a medical. A C1 (without an E) allows you to tow a trailer no more than 750kg, so not a car on a trailer.

 

4 C1+E obtained under grandfather clauses (which requires a medical to retain after age 70) allows you to drive up to 7,500kg and tow within the gross train weight limit of the MH but only up to a maximum train weight (i.e. overall rig weight) of 8,250kg.

 

5 C1+E for which you took a test entitles you to drive up to 7,500 kg and tow up to the gross train weight, up to a maximum of 12,000kg.

 

So if you want to tow a car on a trailer, which is the heaviest thing most motorhomers will tow and usually weighs less than 1,500kg, you need B+E for a MH under 3,500kg (which probably won't have the gross train weight to tow that much) or a C1+E and if you have that under grandfather clauses, your MH will need to weigh no more than 8,250kg less the plated gross vehicle weight limit of your trailer.

 

For example I want to tow a car trailer plated at 1,400kg, so on my C1+E grandfather clause licence, my MH's (actual) weight cannot exceed 6,850kg. I cannot therefore tow a car trailer with a Carthago based on a 7.5 ton Iveco Cargo chassis (unless I down-plate it to 6,8500kg, which is easily done) but I can tow it with exactly the same-sized Carthago model based on an Iveco Daily chassis rated at 6,000kg, which can also be upgraded (and up-plated) should I need the payload, to 6,700kg.

 

Have I got this right?

[Guest Joe90]

Surely the people to ask "have I got this right" is DVLA. (!)

 

Won't be much good should you be breaking the law to say some armchair pundits on a forum said yes you've got it right if you haven't.

[sshortcircuit]

StuartO - 2015-05-05 1:33 PM

 

It might be useful if we conclude with a summary of what you can drive and tow with the various licence categories. As I understand it:

 

1 With the basic B (car) licence you can drive a MH up tp 3,500kg and tow up to 750kg.

 

2 With a B+E (which may be a grandfather entitlement and if so is retained without medical after 70) you can drive a MH up to 3,500kg and tow up to whatever gross train weight your MH's plate allows.

 

3 To drive a MH over 3,500kg (up to 7,500 kg) you need a C1, which is renewed after 70 only if you have a medical. A C1 (without an E) allows you to tow a trailer no more than 750kg, so not a car on a trailer.

 

4 C1+E obtained under grandfather clauses (which requires a medical to retain after age 70) allows you to drive up to 7,500kg and tow within the gross train weight limit of the MH but only up to a maximum train weight (i.e. overall rig weight) of 8,250kg.

 

5 C1+E for which you took a test entitles you to drive up to 7,500 kg and tow up to the gross train weight, up to a maximum of 12,000kg.

 

So if you want to tow a car on a trailer, which is the heaviest thing most motorhomers will tow and usually weighs less than 1,500kg, you need B+E for a MH under 3,500kg (which probably won't have the gross train weight to tow that much) or a C1+E and if you have that under grandfather clauses, your MH will need to weigh no more than 8,250kg less the plated gross vehicle weight limit of your trailer.

 

For example I want to tow a car trailer plated at 1,400kg, so on my C1+E grandfather clause licence, my MH's (actual) weight cannot exceed 6,850kg. I cannot therefore tow a car trailer with a Carthago based on a 7.5 ton Iveco Cargo chassis (unless I down-plate it to 6,8500kg, which is easily done) but I can tow it with exactly the same-sized Carthago model based on an Iveco Daily chassis rated at 6,000kg, which can also be upgraded (and up-plated) should I need the payload, to 6,700kg.

 

Have I got this right?

 

I do not think you have "3" correct. My understanding is the trailer can have a maximum weight of 750kg to which is added the weight of the load in/on the trailer up to the total MH train weight?

[Billggski]

This where the DVLA is unclear, but surely the trailer weight includes what it is carrying, as it mentions this in other categories?

So I think (3) is right, you are limited to towing 750K, but I think most, if not all, licences will include the E category.

By the way Joe90, you are welcome to try and contact an actual person at the DVLA to get clarification of their categories. Good luck.

[Guest Joe90]

Well perhaps my experience wasn't typical when I needed to change my van classification to a motor caravan, I was able to speak to someone who was extremely helpful and explained the procedure, and what photographic evidence to send in, and it was processed very quickly.

 

The fact remains I personally wouldn't rely on some forum to assume what I proposed to do was allowed under the conditions attached to my license, others can do what they like.

 

;-)

[PeteH]

HI

 

Lifted straight from the DVLA Website:-

 

 

B+E Category B vehicles with trailer when combined weight of vehicle and trailer is over 3,500kg (Now BE)

 

The governing factor is that Either the Total Gross Must not exceed the Kw of the towing vehicle x2. OR the Towing vehicle`s Plated MAM. whichever is the least. This Is what I was advised over the phone from DVLA about 3 years ago.

 

So I interpret it:- Example 1) Tow vehicle KW = 2000kg Trailer 2000kg = 4t

 

OR 2) Tow Vehicle 2000kg, Plated MAM 3500kg, Trailer limited to 1500kg. = 3500kg

 

Pete

[StuartO]

I think this Thread shows us that the situation isn't all that clear - and certainly I found it difficult to get clear information from DVLA's website because, for example, you don't find out about restrictions on your category simply by looking up the categories, you have to be aware that there may be restrictions and then seek them out.

 

And the restrictions aren't necessarily logical or consistent inthe way you might expect, so for example a grandfather B+E gives you unrestricted towing rights (within your vehicle's plated capacity) while a grandfather C1+E doesn't, it merely allows you to trade some MH weight for extra trailer weight within the same overall weight limit as C1 without the E.

 

Another inconsistency is between the towing allowance for a grandfather C1+E compared with a grandfather D1+E, which aren't the same. If licences are supposed to be addressing primarily safety issues, how can it make sense to allow a D1+E, who carries passengers, to tow a heavier trailer for the same weight of vehicle than a C1+E, who doesn't? And surely motorhomes are more like minibuses than lorries aren't they, so why bundle them with lorries and make motorhomers take tests which include coupling and decoupling air brakes on lorry-type trailers?

 

I suppose it might help to understand the thinking behind our current system of categories and restrictions if we knew the history of how the categories have developed and to what extent they are adjustsments, or perhaps even fudges, to fit it with EU policy development. Just looking at them as a current set, they don't add up to a cogent and reasonable set of worked-up driving licence categories at all - they are much more like a set of expedient fudges under pressure to which various generations of civil servants have resorted.

 

And I don't see why we amateur pundits can't discuss a topic like this on the Forum to try to understand and make sense of it, same as any other.

[DJA]

If my memory serves me right a B category licence is NOT just limited to 750kg for the trailer. If it was that would make it virtually impossible for anyone who passed their test since 1997 to tow a caravan as the van would have to be less than 750KG.

 

I think you will find that the allowance is as follows:-

 

Any weight of trailer provided that the combined max weights of both Trailer and Vehicle does not exceed 3500KG or Cars plated limited whichever is lower. For example 2000kg car and 1500kg caravan if the cars plated limit was 3500kg

 

If the combined max weights of the vehicle and trailer exceed 3500KG then the trailer is limited to 750KG.

 

 

[Billggski]

I think we're going backwards here. Don't rely on memory but stick to the DVLA and gov.com.

 

[sshortcircuit]

Billggski - 2015-05-05 9:09 PM

 

I think we're going backwards here. Don't rely on memory but stick to the DVLA and gov.com.

 

Which are as clear as mud which is why we are having such a good discussion.

[PeteH]

Hi

 

(From Stuarts O`s Post) :-Another inconsistency is between the towing allowance for a grandfather C1+E compared with a grandfather D1+E, which aren't the same. If licences are supposed to be addressing primarily safety issues, how can it make sense to allow a D1+E, who carries passengers, to tow a heavier trailer for the same weight of vehicle than a C1+E, who doesn't? And surely motorhomes are more like minibuses than lorries aren't they, so why bundle them with lorries and make motorhomers take tests which include coupling and decoupling air brakes on lorry-type trailers? .

 

I`ve been highlighting this for Many years.. I have a reply from DVLA (some years back) to an E-Mail, in which I pointed this inconsistency out. The reply came down to. "A motor-home regardless of the fact that it has more in common with a "minibus" than an HGV is classed as a Goods vehicle. and therefore comes under that ruling"!.

 

Which IMHO = "Rules is Rules" and we cannot be bothered with logic!.

 

Pete

[StuartO]

I agree. DVLA are not in the least bothered by logical argument. Unfortunately they are well accustomed to conducting themselves to their own entire satisfaction and won't budge an inch if ti doesn't suit.

 

But they are seemingly willing to do expedient things as long as it doesn't depart substantially from their procedures, presumably when it helps to keep the work flowing because they will probably flow-related or backlog related performance targets.

 

Before renewing my licence recently I rang DVLA to ask whether I really needed to send my old licence in with the application, because I would need it but the lady on the phone was inflexible - the rule was that i should do so and if I chose not to then I should enclose a covering letter explaining why and that might, do the trick, but no guarantees.

 

When I sent the carefully checked forms in there was a potential problem. The doctor had messed up the date on the medical form and corrected it, but he ahd initialled the correction. I wrote a covering letter explaining the problem and expressing my hopes that it would be OK. I also explained that I had not included my current licence because I expected to be driving my large MH abroad and so needed to have it with me. My new licence arrived within a couple of weeks without comment - and not even any instructions to destroy the old one. Presumably because that would have required taking the extra time to write a letter back.

 

DVLA now allows licence renewal on line, which does not require the old licence to be posted to them so presumably they aren't that fussed about getting old licences back. DVLA is still pretty officious but maybe they are also taking expedient ways to be more efficient and less unnecessarily obstructive these days.

[S204darren]

StuartO - 2015-05-07 8:17 AM

 

I agree. DVLA are not in the least bothered by logical argument. Unfortunately they are well accustomed to conducting themselves to their own entire satisfaction and won't budge an inch if ti doesn't suit.

 

But they are seemingly willing to do expedient things as long as it doesn't depart substantially from their procedures, presumably when it helps to keep the work flowing because they will probably flow-related or backlog related performance targets.

 

Before renewing my licence recently I rang DVLA to ask whether I really needed to send my old licence in with the application, because I would need it but the lady on the phone was inflexible - the rule was that i should do so and if I chose not to then I should enclose a covering letter explaining why and that might, do the trick, but no guarantees.

 

When I sent the carefully checked forms in there was a potential problem. The doctor had messed up the date on the medical form and corrected it, but he ahd initialled the correction. I wrote a covering letter explaining the problem and expressing my hopes that it would be OK. I also explained that I had not included my current licence because I expected to be driving my large MH abroad and so needed to have it with me. My new licence arrived within a couple of weeks without comment - and not even any instructions to destroy the old one. Presumably because that would have required taking the extra time to write a letter back.

 

DVLA now allows licence renewal on line, which does not require the old licence to be posted to them so presumably they aren't that fussed about getting old licences back. DVLA is still pretty officious but maybe they are also taking expedient ways to be more efficient and less unnecessarily obstructive these days.

Stuart how do I down grade my Iveco 7500 sport/race truck to 6850? I want to tow around 1400. Hope you can help? Regards Darren

[StuartO]

S204darren - 2015-08-31 7:50 AM

 

Stuart how do I down grade my Iveco 7500 sport/race truck to 6850? I want to tow around 1400. Hope you can help? Regards Darren

 

As far as I know down-plating a vehicle is just a matter of getting a replacemen plate or sticker with the new limit on it. No need to pay for specialist help. Look on line or even on EBay for VIN plates and you will find a selection. Then inform DVLA so they can modify their records and re-issue your V5.

 

Take care not to reduce the limit too much because you will be sacrificing payload.

 

[Billggski]

I'd include a weighbridge ticket to show you really are below the weight.

[S204darren]

Good call I'm going to get it weighed Wednesday. Thank you