RVNeal Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Hi Motorhomers, I would be interested in any feedback on towing a small car using a braked A-frame through Switzerland and Italy. I'm not overly concerned about the perceived legality per se as, if its legal in your home country, then it is legal in all other EU states as a "temporary importation" i.e. holiday. What I'm keen to learn is the reaction of the Swiss and Italian motorway police on encountering an A-frame in use. Thanks in anticipation of your responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Despite my reservations on you being a troll, I will answer you. The regs regarding towing are not EU but UN, and even so, A frames like many other things are not legal europe wide. It is a common misconception that all things legal in one country are legal EU wide, this is not so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Agree Colin...... Neal is making a lot of assumptions! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 I agree with Colin on this, I tow using an A-Frame, but strictly only in the UK. There is a good e-mail reply from the DVLA regarding this on the Car-a-tow website . So, fine in this Country but risky in the rest of Europe, Vienna convention doesn't apply evidently. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Rayjsj - 2015-07-04 11:34 AM........................Vienna convention doesn't apply evidently. Ray This is true. For a vehicle to be legal when abroad it has to be legal in its country of registration. Under UK common law a car towed on an A frame is not illegal, because there is no prohibition on doing so. However, that does not confer legality, as the concept has not been tried. Advice from UK civil servants is that A frames thus fall into a legal grey area (because it is arguable that the towed car can be regarded as a trailer - but must comply with relevant trailer regulations), meaning they may continue to be used unless and until UK law is changed. Most of Europe has adopted "Napoleonic" law, under which for something to be legal it has to have been legalised, and the default assumption is that if not legalised it is illegal. So, almost any law enforcement authority outside the UK will be inclined to say that you are towing a car, and in much of Europe the only vehicles allowed to tow other vehicles are authorised recovery vehicles. The only exception is where a vehicle is being towed to a place of safety after breakdown or accident, either for repair or to enhance road safety. There are usually further strictures as to what means of towing may be used, and at what speed the tow can proceed. A motorhome A framing a car just won't pass muster. You will definitely infringe French law with an A frame, though the French police generally seem to turn "Nelson's eye" to foreign vehicle doing this. Can't advise on German, Swiss, or Italian law, buy you would be wise to check with the relevant embassies or state tourist offices before making any assumptions. If you are stopped you may be fined, but you will almost certainly be required to de-couple the car and drive it separately. If you are the only driver, that would present an expensive challenge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Bizarre that one well-known a-frame converter has apparently appointed agents in France to supply and fit his products. I wonder how that's going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVNeal Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 Thanks for all your learned contributions. Colin, I don't even know what a troll is so it's highly unlikely that I am one?!? Perhaps you could enlighten me with a definition and then explain from that how you suspect me to be one? All the replies seem to err very much on the side of caution; it was almost as if I was reading "legal opinion" from a solicitor/lawyer. I understand what you are implying but, in reality, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of motorhomers towing cars on A-frames all over Europe. I have seen motorhomes registered in France, Holland, Belgium, Portugal, and even the Czech Republic, towing cars on A-frames as well as the huge number of British motorhomers who do this. I have towed extensively in France using one and have also towed in Spain (from north to south and back) without any problems. Gendarmes and Guardia Civil have looked and ignored. Perhaps I'll reword my question thus: "Does anyone have any fact-based knowledge about whether or not A-frame towing is EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN in Switzerland or Italy?" Once again thanks in anticipation for any further comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Are you really interested in replies? Seems to me, you are quiet happy to flaunt the law of other countries any-way! They chop hands of for stealing in some countries, so why not do it here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 More spamming then trolling me thinks. You try arguing that its legal in Spain when faced with grumpy traffic police with guns....as others have said, why are you even asking on here when not interested in common sense replies!lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 PJay - 2015-07-04 3:32 PM They chop hands off for stealing in some countries, so why not do it here? Are you bloody mad or what ! Just because Napoleonic law prevails in Continental Europe, ie EVERYTHING is illegal, unless WE say it is not ! Does NOT mean that we should follow suit. Indeed, I hope we are free of Unelected beaurocrats forming our laws, and taking precedance over our own elected politicians, after the forthcoming referendum. As for Sharia law ( the chopping off of hands for stealing) there would hopefully be an Insurrection against any attempt to enact any such thing. (even if you were joking !) Using an A-Frame hardly equates to stealing, anyway ! Take your Ire out on the Local UK councils that are making Motorhoming in the UK so hard, that we have to resort to using our A-Frames. Fed up with 'New Europeans' (live here, but buy Foreign Vans on the Continent,so dodging UK Tax, and always holidaying on the Continent,) Knocking people who use A-Frames, If this makes me a Troll ? then I proudly am 'One'. I'm with you ! RVNeal. But that doesn't mean I'll be joining you anytime soon, I am happy to stick to the UK ! Ray ps. We only had the Celebration of beating Napoleon at Waterloo, last week,why are his law systems STILL in use ? crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Here we go...nutter alert. Brian eloquently explained the legal diffrences and all he gets is an idiotic anti EU rant (lol) you really compound your stupidity dont you..those that import pay exactly the same level of 20% UK vat as you do...are you seriously that dumb!lol we have been members of EU for 40 years...petty little englanders Eh :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Then leave A-Framers alone. Rant was not directed at you personally, but if the cap fits ? Tell me, is everyone who disagrees with you 'a nutter' ?? as i am sure there is a diagnosis for that. members of the Common market for 40 years, but the EU for not much longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVNeal Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 Blimey! What have I started here?????? For clarification purposes relating to trolls and spammers, all I am seeking is any legitimate information other forum users may have on my chosen "subject". Whether I heed that information or not is neither here nor there at present. It would depend on what the information received was. It is about knowledge gathering to enable me to make a decision one way or the other. So, calm down! ;-) So far some contributors have suggested that it is illegal in most other European countries BUT, 1. It hasn't been tested in court and 2. Hundreds of people do it anyway I know that doesn't make it legal but it certainly indicates a level of official acceptance. Thanks once again for all your contributions but please, no more aggro. I'm going to consider what I will do in the future and not post here again (for a while) before I am accused of being a communist, or even a fascist. Trouble seems to follow me around....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Not so.. not tested in a court in the UK (yet) have been going to Italy for 12 year every summer, this out 13th and not seen an A frame yet likewise Switzerland you see them in Spain. Some get pulled and fined some get through without being noticed don't know re France Clint Eastwood explained it better than anyone...... but better make sure there are two drivers on board if you are stopped as may not be allowed to continues unless unhooked. and have cash for fine or you will be marched to a cash machine have you considered a trailer...no problems anywhere with one of those Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Rayjsj - 2015-07-04 3:58 PM................Just because Napoleonic law prevails in Continental Europe, ie EVERYTHING is illegal, unless WE say it is not ! Does NOT mean that we should follow suit. It's a history thing, Ray, not an EU thing. Most of Europe adopted that legal concept at roughly the time of Napoleon. But, no-one (not even the EU :-)) has tried to impose Napoleonic law on the UK since Napoleon tried. Indeed, I hope we are free of Unelected beaurocrats forming our laws, and taking precedance over our own elected politicians, after the forthcoming referendum. Your prerogative. But, I don't think you completely understand how the EU enacts its legislation, or why we adopt it, so be careful what you vote for! :-D ........................................................... Fed up with 'New Europeans' (live here, but buy Foreign Vans on the Continent,so dodging UK Tax, and always holidaying on the Continent,) Knocking people who use A-Frames, If this makes me a Troll ? then I proudly am 'One'. I'm with you ! RVNeal. But that doesn't mean I'll be joining you anytime soon, I am happy to stick to the UK ! Ray Well we live here because that is where most of us were born. We buy foreign vans (at least in my case) because we prefer them. We buy them on the continent because they are cheaper there. If they qualify as new, we pay exactly the same rate of VAT on them as you paid on your van. So, if UK manufacturers were to make a van that I want, and would sell it at a price more in line with continental prices, why on earth would I bother buying elsewhere? That's just something for the UK manufacturers and dealers to think about. I didn't seen anyone "knocking" A frames, but several of us set out the legal difference between their status in UK and elsewhere. That seemed a helpful thing to do at the time, as RV Neal asked about their use in Switzerland and Italy, and he'd probably have to cross one country in which they are known to be illegal, to get to those countries. It now seems he only wanted a legal opinion on Swiss and Italian traffic law. Perhaps he should have found a forum for international lawyers! :-D His perception of what is legal seems based on what he has so far got away with, which is entirely his prerogative. But it would have been a bit invidious if we'd all kept quiet, and just left him to find out the hard way. Public spirited, we are! ps. We only had the Celebration of beating Napoleon at Waterloo, last week,why are his law systems STILL in use ? crazy. Well, if the age of the legal system is to be the deciding factor, ours is largely based on Norman legal concepts, which date back even further. Crazy also? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 JudgeMental - 2015-07-04 6:35 PM have you considered a trailer...no problems anywhere with one of those Problem is a trailer is nowhere near as convenient and a much poorer tow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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