Derek Uzzell Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 747 - 2015-08-05 1:43 PM Derek Uzzell - 2015-08-04 9:22 AM 747 But your 2003 Ducato would not have been an X250 or X290 model... It now seems plain that, if an X250 Ducato has a passenger airbag, the central ‘document holder’ is fixed and cannot be hinged up. There’s no doubt that the document holder of Ducato X290s with a single passenger airbag can be hinged up, though the handbook’s advice is that the holder will be fixed if the vehicle has a double passenger airbag. I’m not sure where that leaves Colin Leake who raised the issue. I’m assuming his “new PVC” is Ducato X290-based and I would not anticipate it having a double passenger airbag. On that basis, I would have expected his document holder to hinge up, so either his holder’s mechanism is very stiff/jammed, or the holder is fixed, or there’s more to this than the Ducato handbook indicates. I was simply pointing out that this is not a new phenomenon Derek. BTW it was a 2003 Burstner 747 tag axle coachbuilt. The earliest Ducato handboook on the Fiat eLum website has a publication date of April 2005 but there’s a fair chance it will be relevant to a 2003 model. The section on the dashboard “Writing/Reading desk” says "WRITING/READING DESK In the middle of the dashboard, above the sound system compartment, is fitted a mobile writing desk A-fig. 111 that can be used as a reading desk by lifting the rear part and then resting the proper support on the dashboard B. IMPORTANT Never use the writing desk in vertical position when travelling. In the cab, with double passenger seat it is possible to have a special desk. It is contained in the upper part of the central seat backrest; to tilt it move band A - fig. 112 and pull the backrest forwards. Clip B is to be used to hold sheets/papers.” The accompanying drawings show a similar arrangement and design to that used on X250 and X290 models. There’s nothing to suggest that a fixed version of the ‘desk’ was fitted, nor that the presence of a passenger airbag would prevent a 2005 Ducato from having a hinge-up desk. This doesn’t prove anything of course, except perhaps that vehicle handbooks don’t necesssarily tell the full story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALANSUE Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 I broke mine trying to lift it - DO NOT TOUCH - its because the air bag is underneath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 ALAN&SUE - 2015-08-08 11:08 AM I broke mine trying to lift it - DO NOT TOUCH - its because the air bag is underneath Don't know about the X290 but on the X250s that I have owned there is a small removable cubby hole immediately below the fixed clip board and below that is the radio. The airbag is on the passenger side not centrally and I don't see how the clip board lifting could possibly interfere with the airbag. A fixed clip board sounds suspiciously like a cost cutting exercise to me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 I’ve looked at Peugeot Boxer on-line Owner Handbooks for X250 and X290 models (I believe ALAN&SUE’s motorhome is 2007-registered and Boxer-based) and they all say the same thing - that if the vehicle is fitted with a front passenger airbag the document-holder above the radio cannot be raised. If ALAN&SUE’s motorhome has a passenger airbag and a vigorous attempt made to raise the document-holder resulted in damage, this would have been ignoring the handbook’s advice. The position of the airbag is (unsurprisingly) directly in front of the passenger and this is shown clearly in the handbook drawings of the dashboard. The airbag is definitely NOT under the document-holder, though I accept the possibility that, when a passenger airbag is fitted to X250 and X290 Boxers (and was fitted to X250 Ducatos) something airbag-related MIGHT be beneath the document-holder. It’s been suggested earlier in this thread (and elsewhere) that, when a passenger airbag is fitted, the document-holder cannot be raised because this might compromise the effectiveness of the airbag system. That might be true, but Ducato X290s with a single passenger airbag can (and do) have a document-holder that can be raised and there’s nothing airbag-related evident beneath the document-holder. I don’t know why X290 Ducatos can have a ‘flip up’ document-holder and a passenger airbag, but X290 Boxers apparently (according to the Peugeot handbook) cannot, but I’m doubtful that it’s a cost issue as Boxers without a passenger airbag can have the flip-up holder. Let’s try one more time... 1. If your Peugeot Boxer-based motorhome has a passenger airbag, don’t try to lift the document-holder or you’ll risk breaking it. 2. If your Fiat Ducato-based motorhome does not use the X290 chassis and has a passenger airbag, don’t try to lift the document-holder or you’ll risk breaking it. 3. If your motorhome has Fiat Ducato X290 base and has the normal single passenger airbag, you should be able to lift the document-holder. In the (unlikely) event that it has a double passenger airbag, don’t try to lift the document-holder or you’ll risk breaking it. IAEF RTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted August 8, 2015 Author Share Posted August 8, 2015 Must confess I was only curious as to why she no flip up. When I did have one that did I never used it! Sorry chaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philbee Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 The flip up in my elddis has flipped and won"t go down-but iclip the rubber sucker for the satnav in the paper holder.No more satnav falling off screen and rolling around floor.Ipreviously posted I was having troubles with the joints in my water system-a workshop forman in the trade has told me that elddis are having trouble with the white loose collared connectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrie Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Any idea the Auto Trail Cheyenne 696G 2008 Fiat Ducato 40 Heavy has a flip up document holder? Or is it fixed? It creaks if I attempt to lift it, but i don't want to break it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 The flip up top on a Ducato X250 is fixed so don't attempt to try and raise it. The previous X244 could be raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrie Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Sorry. I'm not familiar with these model numbers. I only know Ducato 33 light, 35 light and 40 heavy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrie Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Sorry. I'm not familiar with these model numbers. I only know Ducato 33 light, 35 light and 40 heavy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 pyrie - 2016-01-13 9:32 PM Sorry. I'm not familiar with these model numbers. I only know Ducato 33 light, 35 light and 40 heavy. If you have a 2008 Ducato then that will be an X250, produced between 2006 and approx 2013/2014. On this model the flip up facility is fixed. Don't ask me why ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Possible spanner in works thought. Before adding extras to dashboards etc find out if you are blocking an airbag deployment route. Hospitals have enough to do treating road collision victims without extracting sat navs, clop boards etc from foreheads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Robbo - 2016-01-13 11:17 PM pyrie - 2016-01-13 9:32 PM Sorry. I'm not familiar with these model numbers. I only know Ducato 33 light, 35 light and 40 heavy. If you have a 2008 Ducato then that will be an X250, produced between 2006 and approx 2013/2014. On this model the flip up facility is fixed. Don't ask me why ??? It’s not that simple... The Fiat Owner Handbook for Euro 4 Ducato X250 models advises as follows: "DESK/BOOKREST (for versions/markets where provided) There is a desk (A-fig. 99) in the middle of the dashboard above the sound system compartment; on some versions this desk can be used as a bookrest by the back section and resting it on the dashboard as illustrated in the figure. On versions with passenger side air bags, the desk is fixed.” (Similar guidance is in the Euro 5 Ducato X250 Owner Handbook.) This was discussed on Page One of this thread and the conclusion (I believe) was that, if a Ducato X250 (manufactured mid-2006 to mid-2014, Euro 4 or Euro 5 powerplants) has a central ‘flip-up document holder’, this can only be raised if the vehicle does NOT have a passenger-side air-bag. Thus, if Pyrie’s 2008 Cheyenne HAS a passenger-side air-bag (and this should be plain from the “air bag” marking on the dashboard directly facing the passenger-seat) the document holder is fixed and cannot be raised. Conversely, if Pyrie’s 2008 Cheyenne does NOT have a passenger-side air-bag (no “air bag” marking on the dashboard directly facing the passenger-seat) it SHOULD be possible to lift the dashboard’s document-holder section. (A sharp upwards tug on the side of the document-holder section nearest the windscreen should cause the thing to release if it’s designed to do so. Even if you believe (after consulting your Ducato Owner Handbook) that the document-holder should raise up, but the holder strongly resists being lifted, you’d be well advised to heed the Creaky Gypsy’s Warning.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Robbo - 2016-01-13 11:17 PM pyrie - 2016-01-13 9:32 PM Sorry. I'm not familiar with these model numbers. I only know Ducato 33 light, 35 light and 40 heavy. If you have a 2008 Ducato then that will be an X250, produced between 2006 and approx 2013/2014. On this model the flip up facility is fixed. Don't ask me why ??? Apologies to Derek and and all the contributors - in my rush to respond, I missed Page 1 (it was quite late in the evening) !!! I've now spent half an hour reading Page 1 and now fully understand the complexities of the situation - I think ??? A good read though - just hope I haven't caused Derek any further repetitive strain injury :-o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrie Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Thanks for the update on the x250 model number. There is nothing in my Fiat owners handbook to indicate this model number. I guess I'll leave the desk alone now that I know its fixed :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 pyrie - 2016-01-15 5:24 PM Thanks for the update on the x250 model number. There is nothing in my Fiat owners handbook to indicate this model number. I guess I'll leave the desk alone now that I know its fixed :) I think you will find that the model number is effectively the last 3 numbers on your VIN plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 As far as I’m aware the “Xnnn” identifier (X290, X250 etc.) will not be apparent from the VIN-plate. This Wikipedia entry details the ‘family tree’ leading up to the presenr X290 model-range of vehicles bearing Citroen “Relay”/“Jumper”, Fiat “Ducato” and Peugeot “Boxer” names. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Ducato The “Xnnn” identifier is applied to Relay/Jumper, Ducato and Boxer vehicles produced under the SEVEL banner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevel I don’t know how the number part of the identifier is assigned, but a change in the number occurs when a brand new (or significantly altered) model-range is introduced. According to Wikipedia (see 1st link above) the current model-range introduced in May 2014 is the 4th generation. This model-range was assigned the identifier “X290”. The 3rd generation model-range was introduced in May 2006 and was assigned the identifier “X250”. The 2nd generation model-range ran from 1993 to 2006 and two identifiers were assigned to it. Vehicles manufactured from (roughly) mid-2002 to April 2006 had an “X244” identifier; prior to that the identifier was “X230”. It’s evident that quite important specification modifications within a model-range do not automatically trigger an “Xnnn” identifier change. For example, major revisions to the X250 model-range’s motor lineup did not affect the X250 identifer. But when an “Xnnn” identifier does change, the vehicle-appearance always changes too. So it’s visually straightforward to distinguish an X290 from an X250, or an X250 from an X244 (or even an X244 from an X230) as the cabs look different. (Obviously, with A-class motorhomes built on a chassis-cowl and having no original steel cab body-panels, visual discrimination may be much trickier.) There’s nothing on my 2015 Fiat Ducato’s VIN-plate to show that it is an “X290”, but its Fiat Warranty Certificate has a MODEL/VERSION/SERIES CODE box with “290L5C4” in it, and another MODEL box on the Certificate describes the vehicle (converted into a motorhome by Rapido in France) as “Nouveau Ducato 290 CTNH1L5C 2300”. The “Xnnn” identifier can be a convenient shorthand way of identifying a vehicle when it’s necessary to accurately establish which model-range it relates to. An example of this is here http://www.airride.co.uk/air-suspension-kit-for-vehicles/kits-van/fiat-ducato-x244-x250/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Robbo - 2016-01-15 5:56 PM pyrie - 2016-01-15 5:24 PM Thanks for the update on the x250 model number. There is nothing in my Fiat owners handbook to indicate this model number. I guess I'll leave the desk alone now that I know its fixed :) I think you will find that the model number is effectively the last 3 numbers on your VIN plate. Correction, I've just looked at my VIN. I have an X250 and the first VIN references are ZFA250....0000. My previous van, a 2002 Ducato had a VIN reference of ZFA244...0000, so, an X244. Apologies for the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Robbo - 2016-01-16 1:21 PM Robbo - 2016-01-15 5:56 PM pyrie - 2016-01-15 5:24 PM Thanks for the update on the x250 model number. There is nothing in my Fiat owners handbook to indicate this model number. I guess I'll leave the desk alone now that I know its fixed :) I think you will find that the model number is effectively the last 3 numbers on your VIN plate. Correction, I've just looked at my VIN. I have an X250 and the first VIN references are ZFA250....0000. My previous van, a 2002 Ducato had a VIN reference of ZFA244...0000, so, an X244. Apologies for the confusion. Thanks Robbo I have just looked on my reg doc. and now know that ours is a X244 (2006) one of the last before the revamp, and before the Judder problem. PJay Forgot to say ours does flip up, but not really suitable for fixing the sat nav on when up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Fiat has used the 4th through 6th characters of the VIN historically to indicate the Ducato model-range (eg, ZFA230..., ZFA244..., ZFA250...) but this convention has evidently not been extended to the current Ducato “X290” model-range. My Fiat-based motorhome has a VIN that begins “ZFA250...” and it might be concluded from this that the vehicle is a '3rd generation Ducato’ X250 model built sometime between (roughly) mid-2006 and mid-2014. But my motorhome is actually based on a ‘4th generation Ducato’ X290 model built in 2015. So, although it’s possible to accurately discriminate between X230 and X244 Ducato models via the VIN, it’s not possible to be certain simply from a VIN beginning “ZFA250...” whether a Ducato is an X250 or X290 model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 Incidentally, the “230”, “244”, “250” ‘model range’ indicator within the VIN only seems to relate to Fiat Ducatos. Although Citroen Relay/Jumper and Peugeot Boxer equivalents to the Ducato are commonly referred to as, say, “X250” models, their VIN does not (apparently) include that indicator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 It's interesting Derek, that the VIN convention for the 230, 244, 250 has not been extended to the 290 model and only applies anyway to Fiat Ducato models. Just read on another forum that a good way to distinguish between the X250 and X290 is as follows: The X250 has a large storage locker in the lower centre of the dashboard. This was replaced by bottle holders in the X290 model. I assume this distinction also applies to other makes from the same stable, such as the Boxer etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Robbo - 2016-01-19 11:30 AM It's interesting Derek, that the VIN convention for the 230, 244, 250 has not been extended to the 290 model and only applies anyway to Fiat Ducato models. Just read on another forum that a good way to distinguish between the X250 and X290 is as follows: The X250 has a large storage locker in the lower centre of the dashboard. This was replaced by bottle holders in the X290 model. I assume this distinction also applies to other makes from the same stable, such as the Boxer etc. That won't work either can be fitted, the glove box is an option, some manufacturers fit it as standard others offer the option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 As long as a motorhome uses the original cab, it should visually straightforward to distinguish between an X250 and an X290 (see attachments.) X290-based A-class models will be trickier, but there are subtle differences between the instrument-cluster display that should give the game away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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