Hobby-and Warranties

[Thebroons]

Sophie2 - 2016-03-20 6:24 PM

 

Hi again

 

Absolutely no problem with the fridge on ehu, 12v (on the move of course) or gas.

 

We "outgrew" corner (french ) beds some time ago due to the night time excursions to the loo and climbing over each other for the purpose ;-) :-)

 

Thanks for all the information.

 

We have decided to go ahead with the purchase and hoping to collect in around 3 weeks time.

 

I forgot to check what leisure battery is fitted but from what I have read it could be an 80mah gel battery under the passenger seat which will probably need replacing as we currently have 2 batteries supplying 190mah in total. The better half does like a bit of tv even when we are off ehu.

[Derek Uzzell]

I think you’ll find that (like several other major motorhome manufacturers) Hobby switched from gel leisure batteries to AGM some while ago.

 

In this late-2014 discussion

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Yet-another-battery-question/36808/

 

Sophie2 said that the battery fitted was an Exide EK900 "Micro Hybrid” AGM.

 

I commented as follows:

 

Details of Exide’s “Micro Hybrid” batteries can be found by clicking on the relevant entry here

 

http://www.exide.com/gb/en/product-solutions/transportation/our-brands-transportation.aspx

 

You’ll note that the “Micro Hybrid’ AGM batteries are oriented towards Start/Stop vehicle applications and that Exide markets alternatives (gel, AGM or wet-acid type) for caravan and motorhome applications.

 

(That’s just an observation - I’m not suggesting that your Hobby’s battery is in any way ‘wrong’.)

 

A description of your particular battery can be viewed here

 

http://www.autopointcarparts.co.uk/index.php/exide-ek900-019-agm-battery-1.html

 

The equivalent Banner battery would be a “Running Bull AGM” 59201.

 

The equivalent Varta battery would be a “Silver Dynamic AGM" 595 901 085.

 

The equivalent Bosch battery would be an “S6" 013

[Sophie2]

JUst to avoid confusion and to clarify Derek's Post. the Exide EK900 "Micro Hybrid” AGM I referred to is the VEHICLE battery, not the leisure battery, which thus far has given no cause for concern

[Thebroons]

@ Derek

 

Thanks for the link.

 

@ Sophie

 

Thanks for the confirmation.

[Derek Uzzell]

Sophie2 - 2016-03-22 7:20 PM

 

JUst to avoid confusion and to clarify Derek's Post. the Exide EK900 "Micro Hybrid” AGM I referred to is the VEHICLE battery, not the leisure battery, which thus far has given no cause for concern

 

I hesitate to contradict you (as you own the motorhome) but I’m doubtful that’s the case.

 

If your August-2014 Hobby Siesta had an Exide EK900 starter-battery (ie. 'vehicle-battery’), it would suggest that Hobby (or somebody) replaced the original Fiat factory-fitted starter-battery, as that battery is most unlikely to have been an Exide AGM product.

 

In this December 2014 discussion about leisure-batteries

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Leisure-Battery-choice-and-usage-on-holiday-/36790/

 

you said:

 

"Interesting. We've got exide AGM Stop/Start on ours (2 x 95ah) One already fitted from new purchase of vehicle. The other a few months later.”

 

I can understand that your Siesta might have one AGM Stop/Start battery as its starter-battery, but two seems like overkill.

 

There’s also this pro-mobil magazine forum’s May 2014 thread

 

http://www.promobil.de/forum/threads/34630-Kombination-Ladeger%C3%A4t-cb-516-und-AGM-Batterie-Ladeschluss-Spannung

 

that specifically discusses Hobby fitting an Exide 92Ah AGM leisure-battery to new Siesta models and whether the CBE CB516 ‘wet-acid/gel’ battery-charger that Hobby used would be appropriate for charging an AGM battery (something that’s been mentioned elsewhere on this forum).

 

If your Siesta’s Exide AGM batteries are used for starting the vehicle, what make and type are the leisure-batteries, please?

 

 

[Sophie2]

Thanks Derek-yes the Dec 2014 thread was headed "Leisure Batteries....." but (as usual) subsequent Posts went off topic a bit and discussed vehicle batteries, and my Post quoted that of Stuart O who referred to use of Stop/Start (vehicle) batteries being used as Leisure batteries.

 

I concede that my attempts to clarify, probably didn't, so ....

 

The vehicle battery on ours is EK920 (92ah) micro-hybrid. AGM

 

The leisure batteries (x2) are EX 950 (95ah) "Start-Stop" AGM

 

Vehicle battery and one Leisure were fitted at manufacture (so far as I am aware).. I had an additional leisure battery, twin to original, fitted within weeks of purchase.

 

 

[Thebroons]

Sophie2 - 2016-03-24 10:42 AM

 

Thanks Derek-yes the Dec 2014 thread was headed "Leisure Batteries....." but (as usual) subsequent Posts went off topic a bit and discussed vehicle batteries, and my Post quoted that of Stuart O who referred to use of Stop/Start (vehicle) batteries being used as Leisure batteries.

 

I concede that my attempts to clarify, probably didn't, so ....

 

The vehicle battery on ours is EK920 (92ah) micro-hybrid. AGM

 

The leisure batteries (x2) are EX 950 (95ah) "Start-Stop" AGM

 

Vehicle battery and one Leisure were fitted at manufacture (so far as I am aware).. I had an additional leisure battery, twin to original, fitted within weeks of purchase.

 

 

Hope I've not started an argument with my question :)

 

Can I ask where the vehicle battery and leisure batteries are fitted.

 

I see you have two leisure batteries fitted and I'm curious if they are where the original leisure battery was fitted and how much space there was for the additional battery.

[Derek Uzzell]

I think you’ll find that your Hobby’s leisure-batteries are EK950s not EX950s.

 

Exide seems to use the "Micro Hybrid” as a generic name for AGM batteries aimed at vehicles having Start/Stop and/or regenerative braking systems.

 

There’s a mention here

 

 

that Exide supplies the Fiat Group with this type of battery but (unless your Hobby has a Start/Stop system) it’s seems a mite surprising your Siesta has one as its starter-battery.

 

Ignoring the labelling on the battery casing and the dimensions, I believe there’s no technical difference whatsover between an EK920 and an EK950.

 

If Hobby had wanted to replace their historically-fitted Exide gel leisure-batteries, the Exide Dual range would appear to have been a more appropriate choice.

 

http://www.exide.com/gb/en/product-solutions/transportation/applications-transportation/marine-leisure-caravan-and-motorhome-transportation.aspx

[Sophie2]

Thebroons: No Problem! Vehicle battery is beneath driver's seat. When I had extra leisure battery, VanBitz did a great job of utilising space under the side facing bench seat behind driver's seat. So both leisure batteries sit side by side but we still have ample storeage space for other bits.

 

Derek: Sorry yes-typo error. The 920 shows as 92ah on battery, the 950's show 95ah.

 

I've seen the links thanks, but I certainly don't feel sufficiently competent to challenge Fiat on their choice of vehicle battery. As is the normal situation, the buyer has to assume that the manufacturers' engineers know what they're doing ! ;-)

[Thebroons]

Sophie2 - 2016-03-24 2:07 PM

 

Thebroons: No Problem! Vehicle battery is beneath driver's seat. When I had extra leisure battery, VanBitz did a great job of utilising space under the side facing bench seat behind driver's seat. So both leisure batteries sit side by side but we still have ample storeage space for other bits.

 

Derek: Sorry yes-typo error. The 920 shows as 92ah on battery, the 950's show 95ah.

 

I've seen the links thanks, but I certainly don't feel sufficiently competent to challenge Fiat on their choice of vehicle battery. As is the normal situation, the buyer has to assume that the manufacturers' engineers know what they're doing ! ;-)

 

Thanks for the info.

 

So the leisure battery will be under the passenger seat with the choice of fitting biggest battery that will fit or moving under bench seat same as in your setup.

[Derek Uzzell]

Thebroons - 2016-03-24 8:38 PM

 

So the leisure battery will be under the passenger seat with the choice of fitting biggest battery that will fit or moving under bench seat same as in your setup.

 

Suggest you confirm this with the vendor of the 2015 Hobby Siesta you mentioned earlier, as Hobby has a habit of changing model specifications unpredictably.

 

This link is to the 2014 Siesta catalogue:

 

http://www.dicklanemotorhomes.co.uk/pdfs/hobby-siesta-catalogue-2014.pdf

 

If you look at Page 28 you’ll find a section headed “Latest battery management” that says:

 

"The HELLA battery sensor constantly measures the charge status of the starter battery and 92 AH-AGM on-board battery as well as its consumption values and charging currents. The colour display means the power supply always remains in sight.”

 

There’s no doubt that the 92 AH-AGM battery reference relates to the ‘leisure-battery’.

 

The starter-battery of Fiat Ducatos manufactured from mid-2006 to the present day is normally housed in a purpose-designed compartment in the cab floor under a large ‘lid’ on the left-hand side. The original-equipment (OE) battery will normally be traditional wet-acid type and either 95Ah or 110Ah capacity depending on the motor size.

 

Exide say that they supply Fiat Group with AGM batteries, but there seems to be no evidence that these are fitted as OE to Ducatos. It’s possible that Ducato receives an AGM battery if it has a Start/Stop system, but there seems to be no obvious incentive for Fiat to fit an AGM starter-battery otherwise. (If a Ducato has a Start/Stop system, this will be visually apparent as there’s a dashboard button relating to it.)

 

From what Sophie2 has said above and the information in Siesta brochures, it appears that Hobby has relocated the Fiat OE starter-battery from its normal underfloor position to beneath the driver’s seat (presumably that’s the seat on the vehicle’s right-hand side) and replaced the OE standard wet-acid starter-battery with an AGM type.

 

This would be a fairly significant change and - as its effect would impact on battery-related information in the Ducato Owner Handbook - I would have expected there to be something about it in the Hobby handbook. (It would also have potential implications on the Fiat warranty.) It would be interesting to know what’s under the cab floor of Sophie2’s Siesta where the starter-battery would normally be.

 

There may be a technical reason for Hobby to have chosen to fit an AGM starter-battery (I’m sure the starter-battery wasn’t put under the driver’s seat by Fiat) that relates to the battery management system mentioned in the brochure, though the 2014 Siesta’s electrics are clearly based round a common-or-garden CBE PC-220 modular system.

 

All a bit mysterious, but that’s Hobby for you...

 

 

[Robinhood]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-03-25 8:04 AM

 

All a bit mysterious, but that’s Hobby for you...

 

 

....well possibly, but maybe not.

 

If VanBitz were asked to fit an additional leisure battery and the 'van left the factory or the original dealer with two already (factory) fitted, then there is always the possibility that the vehicle now has three AGM leisure batteries, and a standard lead/acid vehicle battery still (concealed) under the cab floor. B-)

 

Funnier things have happened, and like you, I would be interested to know if there is anything in the original vehicle battery space.

[Derek Uzzell]

Robinhood

 

I did wonder whether Terry’s (Sophie2’s) Hobby motorhome was actually bought secondhand in 2014 and had been fiddled with by a previous owner, but that’s clearly not so based on the original posting in this October 2014 forum thread:

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Another-2nd-Battery-question/36416/

 

Terry’s motorhome is a Siesta T70 HGE and, although this was purchased in 2014, it is in fact part of Hobby's 2015 model-year range.

 

If I’d bought a new 2015 model-year Hobby Siesta I would have expected to find a wet-acid starter-battery under the cab floor as that’s where Fiat has located this in Ducatos since 2006. The 2015 Hobby Siesta brochure mentions that a 92Ah AGM leisure-battery is fitted as standard and I’d initially look for this under a cab seat as that’s where Hobby has tended to put leisure-batteries.

 

I would have thought that a second leisure-battery in any Hobby 2015 model-year Siesta would have been an optional extra. Consequently, if an extra 95Ah AGM leisure-battery had been fitted under a side-facing bench seat at the Hobby factory or by the UK Hobby dealership, I’d expect this fact to have been mentioned by the dealership and to show up in the motorhome’s specification and sale-price. (Exide AGM batteries don’t come cheap.)

 

In the October 2014 forum thread Terry said that his motorhome had a solar panel and a “battery master fitted to the existing battery”. I’m not sure which battery that refers to, but a Battery Master is generally employed to pass current between the leisure-battery and starter-battery. If that was the objective in this case and it was assumed that the 92Ah AGM battery under the cab seat was the starter-battery, then access to that battery would have been required and a cab seat would need to have been removed to gain that access. And if the seat were removed and the battery beneath it fully revealed, the ‘heaviness’ of the battery’s cabling should have made it apparent whether it was a starter-battery or a leisure-battery.

 

A Siesta T70 HGE is not a small motorhome (7.49m long). It has a ceiling-mounted drop-down double bed over the front lounge: I thought this might be electrically operated (and hence provoke the fitting of a 2nd leisure-battery by Hobby) but there’s nothing in the Hobby 2015 model-year brochure to suggest this was so, and in any case Terry says his Siesta’s bed is operated manually.

 

I said earlier that “...a 2014 Siesta’s electrics are clearly based round a common-or-garden CBE PC-220 modular system...” I think that may be true, but I’m not sure what a 2015 model-year Siesta has, as it would seem this was when Hobby introduced a “CI-BUS” system with a completely different control-panel to the ones marketed by CBE.

 

Lots of unknowns... If your hypothesis is correct (and it sounds good to me) then Terry’s Hobby now has 282Ah of AGM leisure-batteries probably married to a 16A battery-charger not optimised for AGM-battery charging.

 

Hmmm...

[Robinhood]

.....I'd also hit the reference to a 92AH AGM leisure battery.

 

This and the fact that I can't think of a reason to take the difficult and potentially costly step of moving the original vehicle battery to somewhere else led me to postulate my theory.

 

If I were the OP, I'd be having a quick look in the original vehicle battery location :-).

 

(I think 92AH is a little down on the standard for a Ducato vehicle battery, and yes, the spec shows a 16A onboard charger for this 'van).

[Sophie2]

Right- here we go then ;_0. I was tempted to go and hide in a corner, or emigrate, or pretend not to be able to Post any further.....such is my embarrassment :$ :$ :$

 

But no- I'll grasp the nettle, face the consequences...and blame the ageing process for the rubbish I seem to have posted before (lol)

 

Let me start again:

 

Under the driver's seat I have....a micro hybrid EK 920 Battery which is....A Leisure battery :$ *-)

Under the side facing bench behind the driver's seat I have....an EK 950 battery which is....A leisure battery :$ *-) ...I had .fitted soon after purchase

 

And in the footwell of the passenger side I have a battery which I presume is a vehicle battery :$

I can't see any relevant markings to show what type it is. On one edge of the battery there are loads of cables and steel bolts. No idea what that is but I'm trying to post photos following the instructions on another thread but the smallest I can get them to is 135kb

 

Humble apologies to Derek and Robin for the wrong info I gave. However whatever batteries I've got I have been happy so far with how the vehicle has started and battery holding charge, and how the leisure batteries are performing.

[Robinhood]

...now that makes more sense :-D

 

(and don't worry, we've all been there!)

[Sophie2]

Robinhood - 2016-03-26 5:18 PM

 

...now that makes more sense :-D

 

(and don't worry, we've all been there!)

 

:-D

[Derek Uzzell]

The attached photo is poached from an earlier forum discussion and is a typical example of the type of starter-battery under-cab-floor installation normally found in post-2006 Ducatos/Boxers/Relays. The installation in my 2015 Ducato looks much the same, with a quick-release connector on the negative terminal (on the right in the photo) and a big shiny ‘plate’ connected to the positive terminal.

 

The Exide battery shown in the photo will have been retro-fitted. I’m not certain what make of starter-battery is fitted as original equipment nowadays as the manufacturer’s name on my Ducato’s battery is not easy to see. Magneti Marelli products might be used (as there’s a link with Fiat) or perhaps batteries from the Italian FAAM Group.

 

 

[Sophie2]

Thanks Derek. I've had another go at uploading photo only managed to crop it to show the conglomeration on the left (positive side) What is it please??. However your pic looks very like mine except that as I said there are no visible markings on it, to show make etc and the casing is black.

 

Just a thought-it may be worth it if I contact Fiat with chassis number to ask what starter battery is fitted. (Having said that, not sure I can be ar**d as it;'s not causing a problem :-)

 

[Robinhood]

...it's effectively a distribution and fuse unit, allowing multiple (high-current) fused circuits to be taken directly from the single, positive battery terminal.

 

The high-rated maxi/midi-fuses are clearly visible in the photograph.

 

Similar arrangements have been in place on the Ducato range for a good few years.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Sophie2

 

Your starter-battery is a “Fiamm” product.

 

The company’s logo is as shown on the attached file and, if you look closely at the lower part of the photo you provided, you’ll see the end of the Fiamm logo (the white “M”) and its two underlines emerging from under the distribution/fuse ‘plate’.

 

The battery is ‘maintainable’ wet-acid type (ie. its cell-caps can be removed to check and top up the electrolyte and a vent-tube can (and should) be fitted to it).

 

I’m not sure which Fiamm battery it is exactly, but the ‘zoomable’ photo on this webpage

 

http://sharzone.com/en/item/batteria-fiamm-95ah-680a-12v

 

shows the 95Ah 680A starter-battery fitted as original equipment (OE) to 2.2litre-engined Boxer/Relay-based motorhomes that caused so much controversy and confusion a year ago

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Peugeot-Boxer-cab-battery-recall-/38092/

 

and you’ll see that the battery on the sharzone.com webpage matches your battery (and my Ducato’s) in appearance.

 

I think the battery fitted as OE to 2.3litre Ducatos has a higher CCA (around 800A rather than 680A) than the one fitted as OE to 2.2litre Boxers/Relays, and it’s possible that the batteries Fiamm provides as OE to Fiat (and to Peugeot/Citroen) are not sold retail.

[Sophie2]

Thank you again Robin and Derek.

 

As regards the link concerning "wrong" battery...yes, very confusing!! Reference is made to Peugeot, Citroen, Bailey, Autosleeper etc but none to Fiat so I'm assuming it's the correct battery fitted to mine!

 

All I can say is that the vehicle starts first time even in the "minus" temps we occasionally had this, and last winter.

 

Thanks again-learning all the time :-D

[Derek Uzzell]

This Bulgarin link

 

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=bg&u=http://www.offroad-bulgaria.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D200910&prev=search

 

contains photos of the Fiamm battery product that’s fitted to my 2015 Ducato (and presumably to your Hobby).

 

It’s possible with my motorhome to see the “12V 95Ah 800A(EN2/SAE)” that’s at 90 degrees to the “M” of “FIAMM” on the label, and If you inspect your battery you may well also be able to see this.

 

You’’ll note that (like the CCA 680A battery fitted to Boxers) this one also carries “SEVEL” and “Dis. FIAT”, but I think the part numbers are different.

 

Anyway - if your Ducato-based Hobby has the 2.3litre motor - received wisdom is that it ought to have the CCA 800A Fiamm battery referred to on the Bulgarian link.

 

 

 

[Sophie2]

Setting aside which specific battery is fitted- if it's meant to be "maintainable", how on earth is one expected to access the cell caps to check/refill, given the various clamps. brackets etc which cover them up? In any case there only seems to be access (on my battery) to 4 of the 6 cells even if you take all those clamps away.

[Derek Uzzell]

A ‘maintainable’ wet-acid battery’s cell-caps can be removed to check and top up the electrolyte, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it will be easy with the battery in situ.

 

If you wanted to ensure that the electrolyte-level in all 6 cells was correct you’d need to remove everything that currently inhibits removal of the cells’ caps, which (in your and my Ducatos’ case) would mean removing the ‘fuse-plate’ attached to the battery’s positive terminal. Otherwise, it’s straightforward to remove some of the cell-caps without disturbing anything else and - if the electrolyte-level is OK (or not) in those cells - it’s a fair bet that the level in the other cells will be the same.

 

It’s not uncommon for a ‘maintainable’ starter-battery to be installed as OE beneath a cab seat and for the motorhome converter to subsequently add a swivel mechanism to that seat. To check/top-up the battery then requires the cab seat to be removed, so the Ducato’s installation is better than that.

 

If you want logic and an easy life, why ever did you buy a motorhome?