Euro6 Ducato

[mikebeaches]

euroserv - 2016-02-01 1:16 PM

 

Not very.

 

It's very sad because at each step of the way Fiat's engines have exceeded the requirements by a lot but now they are going to be just scraping by.

 

Last week we were informed that there are serious delays with production of current long wheelbase vans and chassis due to a paint plant failure and that the delays will be so great that the prices for these vehicles are increasing by £900 from today and that when they arrive they will be Euro6. It seems that the talk of 'near Euro6 compliance' with the current Euro5+ is untrue or that they are just going to milk customers for £900 while not really achieving Euro6 emissions anywhere but on the test bench.

 

This is a massive disappointment. If i am not getting proper Euro6 and SCR; i should not be paying extra for a second rate solution. My patience with Fiat is being severely tested right now.

 

I can understand your frustration Nick, and the content of your post is something of a serious concern to me.

 

I ordered a Rapido PVC in October, for delivery at the end of May (earliest available). It is on a 5.99m chassis, which I presume is the 'long wheelbase' you referred to. Now somewhat worried that delivery could be delayed significantly, after an already long wait.

 

When the order was placed I was advised I could make adjustments to the 'Fiat specification' extras selected up to about 3 months prior to delivery, suggesting that's the Rapido lead-in time for them to place van orders prior to conversion?

 

Ho-hum....

 

Mike

 

[euroserv]

Mike,

It all depends on when they ordered it from Fiat. If they are stating May delivery; it's the coachbuilt bit that is the hold-up. If they ordered the base vehicle in November or December they would be OK as there have been LWB vans and chassis coming through in good numbers this month. If they have only recently ordered it, the delivery time to the UK has increased from 13 weeks to 20-23 weeks and that would mean they might not receive it until June and then they have to build their part - however long that takes. The main hold up is the paint plant failure and that happened in early January. They have decided that as this is going to take a long time to fix it, they are going to phase in Euro6 on the larger vehicles first. All Chassis and platform cabs; long and extra long vans are delayed. I would expect that back to back cabs destined for AL-KO type platforms will be unaffected.

 

It could mean a couple of months of delay for you but you would be getting the Euro6 and as long as it was ordered before 31st January it would be price protected. That sounds like a win to me.

 

When an order is accepted by the factory, it is on what is called 'heavy variability' for a couple of weeks where there can be major changes to the order; such as a chassis cab could be changed to a van or an engine spec could be changed. After the third or fourth week it changes to 'light variability' where trim items and some options can be changed. At about 6 weeks the status changes to 'fixed in build' and a chassis number is allocated. From this point onwards there is no traceability from outside the factory until the status miraculously changes to 'factory gate' where it is supposedly ready to ship but in reality this could be on a train or a ship already because the status is not updated promptly. I have been told that a vehicle was 'factory gate' one day and a day later it was at Avonmouth in the UK! The vehicle can be languishing at Avonmouth for a couple of weeks or it can be delivered to the dealer within hours. It's some sort of lottery. The dealers have no control over when the vehicle is delivered and even when they are told that it is on the way; that is no guarantee that it will be within the next day or so!

Distribution to European destinations may be better, but i doubt it.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

mikebeaches - 2016-02-01 5:27 PM

 

I ordered a Rapido PVC in October, for delivery at the end of May (earliest available). It is on a 5.99m chassis, which I presume is the 'long wheelbase' you referred to. Now somewhat worried that delivery could be delayed significantly, after an already long wait.

 

When the order was placed I was advised I could make adjustments to the 'Fiat specification' extras selected up to about 3 months prior to delivery, suggesting that's the Rapido lead-in time for them to place van orders prior to conversion?

 

Ho-hum....

 

Mike

 

Mike

 

If you seriously think you may want to make changes to your order, I suggest you recheck with the vendor about this now. (And if there appear to be any doubts, insist that the vendor confirm the position with the Rapido factory.)

 

My experience is that Rapido can be very resistant to requests for relatively minor changes to be made to the habitation specification, never mind changes to the specification of the base vehicle.

[mikebeaches]

Many thanks Nick for your detailed, enlightening and fascinating insight concerning the order / delivery process! It provides me with information I can use to check the current status and progress of my van.

 

And thanks also Derek. Fortunately, I'm not planning to make any requests to change the spec, it was simply a point I noted from discussion with the dealer at the point of sale.

 

Mike

[Cadence]

I ordered a new XL panel van conversion at the NEC last February. This was my second Motorhome and I now had the experience to order the exact specification I needed, such as auto, 150 bhp engine, traction+ etc.

 

I was promised an August 2015 delivery - not ideal but still some time to use it before winter. In July I was told the van was in the UK, however it was a manual gearbox (two other customers similarly affected). Decided to grit my teeth and accept a 'Rush' reorder for a January 2016 delivery. Delays meant this slipped to March 1st 2016 delivery.

 

Getting really excited until this afternoon when the UK converter called to tell me the conversion was nearly complete, however they've just realised the van is a 130bhp not 150bhp! Grrrrrrr

 

Been offered the choice of a) they pay to chip the ECU (rejected) b) take it as is or c) reorder for next September delivery and a Euro 6 engine - they said engines would be 2.0 litre units with 140 or 160 bhp options

 

Is a 20 month lead time and double cock up with the order an industry record?

 

What to do? What to do?

 

A) Take the 130bhp? I tow a classic race car from time to time so would welcome the extra pulling power of a 150bhp

B) Tell them to go forth and multiply and buy another brand

C) Take up meditation classes and embrace the opportunity for the latest Euro6 spec motor? (Assuming it's actually third time lucky and they get the order right)

 

Ho hum

 

[Rayjsj]

Cadence - 2016-02-03 8:39 PM

 

I ordered a new XL panel van conversion at the NEC last February. This was my second Motorhome and I now had the experience to order the exact specification I needed, such as auto, 150 bhp engine, traction+ etc.

 

I was promised an August 2015 delivery - not ideal but still some time to use it before winter. In July I was told the van was in the UK, however it was a manual gearbox (two other customers similarly affected). Decided to grit my teeth and accept a 'Rush' reorder for a January 2016 delivery. Delays meant this slipped to March 1st 2016 delivery.

 

Getting really excited until this afternoon when the UK converter called to tell me the conversion was nearly complete, however they've just realised the van is a 130bhp not 150bhp! Grrrrrrr

 

Been offered the choice of a) they pay to chip the ECU (rejected) b) take it as is or c) reorder for next September delivery and a Euro 6 engine - they said engines would be 2.0 litre units with 140 or 160 bhp options

 

Is a 20 month lead time and double cock up with the order an industry record?

 

What to do? What to do?

 

A) Take the 130bhp? I tow a classic race car from time to time so would welcome the extra pulling power of a 150bhp

B) Tell them to go forth and multiply and buy another brand

C) Take up meditation classes and embrace the opportunity for the latest Euro6 spec motor? (Assuming it's actually third time lucky and they get the order right)

 

Ho hum

if it were me, it would be (B) they obviously have taken no notice of your order form , and have therefore broken their side of the contract, so getting your deposit back should be easy.Look elsewhere.

[Derek Uzzell]

Cadence - 2016-02-03 8:39 PM

 

...reorder for next September delivery and a Euro 6 engine - they said engines would be 2.0 litre units with 140 or 160 bhp options...

 

 

I’m more than a little wary of that advice.

 

There seems a reasonable possibliity that the motor going into Euro 6 Citroen Relay/Peugeot Boxer vehicles will be 2.0litre capacity. However, as you mentioned wanting an automatic transmission, that takes the Relay/Boxer out of the frame.

 

All the indications are that Euro 6 Fiat Ducatos will have a 2.0litre motor (manual gearbox) that won’t be offered for RHD vehicles, plus a range of 2.3litre capacity motors (with manual or automatic transmission) having outputs from 110bhp to 180bhp.

 

 

[Cadence]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

I think I'll wait for whatever Euro6 variant is available in the circa 160 bhp variant.

 

I've waited this long for the dream and cannot see that I'd get a new order any faster with another brand.

[colin]

Cadence - 2016-02-03 8:39 PM

 

Is a 20 month lead time and double cock up with the order an industry record?

 

 

Well you've broken my 'record' of one failed order and 10(? ) months.

In my case the first order which went astray was blamed on the original MD of importers who died after a car accident, I've always been a bit suspicious of that, but the dead don't lie!

The reordered van came within a week or so of prediction and all went smoothly as I would expect as the dealer made sure everything was correct, the manufacturer even took a hit of close on £1000, to honour the original price as there had been a VAT rise.

In your case, the first error would have been very annoying, but the second would have me walking away.

[Derek Uzzell]

Cadence - 2016-02-04 10:55 AM

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

I think I'll wait for whatever Euro6 variant is available in the circa 160 bhp variant.

 

I've waited this long for the dream and cannot see that I'd get a new order any faster with another brand.

 

Fiat, Citroen and Peugeot continue to hold close to their chests exact details of the Euro 6 motors that will be fitted to Ducatos, Relays and Boxers.

 

Presumably this 2014 article was speculative

 

http://tinyurl.com/on5e2kd

 

but there’s a good chance that this is roughly what’s going to happen with Ducato.

 

(I’m doubtful that the 2.0litre motor would have an auto-transmission option and I’d expect it to continue to be available only in LHD Ducatos - but time will tell...)

[Mike88]

Can you get a 3 litre engined Fiat any quicker?

[Brock]

The latest MMM has an interesting article about Hymer. To quote what Hymer said, "We will be bringing in Euro 6 as soon as we get the chassis from Fiat - we suppose June or July." The article then comments that Fiat is, as ever, keeping what it is doing with Euro 6 close to its chest.

[euroserv]

It is no longer possible to order the 3.0 engine. There may be some already built and en-route to converters but there will be no more after these are sold.

 

N

[PCC]

I may well be wrong, but I thought Fiat were pulling out of the Sevel joint venture next year? If this is the case then the Euro 6 engines won't be around for long.

 

Will we then get a Toyota version instead like the smaller vans?

 

Peter

[Derek Uzzell]

PCC

 

This link may be of interest

 

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-fiat-sevel-idUKBRE9680CC20130709

 

As the 2.2litre motor used in current Euro 5 Boxers and Relays is produced by Ford and the Transit is (apparently) moving to a completely new Euro 6 2.0litre motor (which is said to have been developed and funded without Peugeot/Citroen involvement) there may be some doubt about the Euro 6 powerplants Boxers/Relays will eventually get.

[euroserv]

PCC - 2016-02-05 2:05 PM

 

I may well be wrong, but I thought Fiat were pulling out of the Sevel joint venture next year? If this is the case then the Euro 6 engines won't be around for long.

 

Will we then get a Toyota version instead like the smaller vans?

 

Peter

 

The Sevel agreement is in two parts. The Sevel Nord factory near Paris is run by Peugeot and has made Fiat Scudo, Peugeot Expert, Citroen Dispatch and more recently Toyota Pro-Ace. Fiat has now ended their part of this agreement. The Toyota deal was originally set up to pick up the slack at the factory after they stopped making Fiat badged vans but has now developed further and Toyota will have their own distinct version of the next Expert type vehicle which will be along within a year.

 

The Sevel Sud factory in Italy is operated by Fiat and produces Fiat Ducato, Pug Boxer and Cit Relay and this arrangement is set to continue until 2019. It will more than likely be extended for at least another 6 years. There are some very solid relationships between Vauxhall/Opel and Renault/Nissan which suggest that it would be a mistake to end a very successful partnership in this sector of the market.

 

In other news..... Volkswagen are going their own way and divorcing Mercedes-Benz for their next new van which will also appear as a MAN (the truck maker, not the gender!) due this year. Believe it or not; the LDV Maxus is making a return this year with a Chinese badge on it!

[Steve928]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-02-05 2:55 PM

 

As the 2.2litre motor used in current Euro 5 Boxers and Relays is produced by Ford and the Transit is (apparently) moving to a completely new Euro 6 2.0litre motor (which is said to have been developed and funded without Peugeot/Citroen involvement) there may be some doubt about the Euro 6 powerplants Boxers/Relays will eventually get.

 

The Euro6 Boxer seems to already be on sale in Euro-land powered by the 1997cc BlueHdi engine from the 308.

This site, for example, lists 110, 130 and 160bhp (ish) versions.

http://www.autowereld.com/nieuwe-autos/prijzen-specificaties/peugeot/boxer-119118

[Robinhood]

...as I said when I re-awoke this thread, it is entirely possible to buy a Euro 6 Ducato in, for example, Germany, now (and I believe it has been on sale for some time).

 

This is available only in the "PKW" (rather than LKW) versions, essentially the Panorama or Combi which are classified as passenger vehicles, and presumably this classification is what has led to the earlier introduction of Euro 6 (for conformity reasons).

 

The sole Euro 6 engine option (other than an LPG one) is a 2.3 150 with SCR, indicating that this is a possible route for LKW introduction later (but, of course, this may only be a stop-gap, and other options may well be coming down the line).

 

 

[Cadence]

I've also heard a rumour that there will be revisions to the cab for 2017 model year (late 2016) to coincide with the introduction of the Euro 6 engine range.

 

Not sure whether this would (if true) apply to the interior, exterior or both?

 

Has anyone else been told this?

[euroserv]

Robinhood - 2016-02-05 4:35 PM

 

...as I said when I re-awoke this thread, it is entirely possible to buy a Euro 6 Ducato in, for example, Germany, now (and I believe it has been on sale for some time).

 

This is available only in the "PKW" (rather than LKW) versions, essentially the Panorama or Combi which are classified as passenger vehicles, and presumably this classification is what has led to the earlier introduction of Euro 6 (for conformity reasons).

 

The sole Euro 6 engine option (other than an LPG one) is a 2.3 150 with SCR, indicating that this is a possible route for LKW introduction later (but, of course, this may only be a stop-gap, and other options may well be coming down the line).

 

 

As i stated last year, the 2.3 Euro 6 with SCR (Ad-blue) engine was introduced early in 2015 and is offered only for passenger vehicle applications such as mini-busses. The Euro 6 regulations are more stringent for passenger vehicles. This engine will continue to be available while all goods vehicles will be without SCR.

 

Having now gotten my new price list i see that the £900 increase in list price is only for LWB and XLWB vans and chassis. Strangely this has not been followed by Peugeot or Citroen so i can only assume that Fiat are being greedy or don't want to be in this market at all. The price increase has nothing to do with emissions standards.

 

Nick

[Derek Uzzell]

Nick

 

Does your price-list indicate which Euro 6 motors (capacity and power-output) will be available for Ducato?

[Derek Uzzell]

Spoke today to a German Carthago representative who confirmed what had been speculated on for some while - that the Ducato’s current Euro 5 3.0litre motor would be replaced by a brand-new Euro 6 2.3litre unit providing similar power/torque outputs to the 3.0litre's

 

The forthcoming Ducato Euro 6 motor range seems to be pretty much as was suggested in this Dutch article

 

http://tinyurl.com/on5e2kd

 

which is quite surprising given the article’s late-2014 publication date.

[Cadence]

Iveco - Fiat is the major shareholder- who's vans have a lot of common DNA, have just released their 2016 Euro 6 van range.

 

Download the brochure here for all the Ivecoengine options

 

http://www.iveco.com/uk/collections/catalogues/Documents/new-daily-E6/Iveco-New-Daily-VanE6-Brochure.pdf

 

Pretty certain this is what the Ducato will have. 2.3 engines with 156 and 180 bhp variants. Interesting, their website also list a 3 litre euro 6 motor and an 8-speed auto on many engine variants - they appear to use the Fiat style gear lever.

 

Now if Ducato offer 180bhp plus an 8 speed auto, then I'll be at the front of the queue!

[euroserv]

Hello,

 

I was looking at the Iveco engines yesterday at the commercial vehicle show and although Fiat still won't confirm this; the 2.3 will be EGR (No Ad Blue) and should be available at around 110, 130, 150 and 180hp as has just been announced for Iveco Daily. The 8 speed is quite a compact unit but it won't fit front wheel drive vehicles for the foreseeable future.

[mikebeaches]

euroserv - 2016-04-27 4:47 PM

 

Hello,

 

I was looking at the Iveco engines yesterday at the commercial vehicle show and although Fiat still won't confirm this; the 2.3 will be EGR (No Ad Blue) and should be available at around 110, 130, 150 and 180hp as has just been announced for Iveco Daily. The 8 speed is quite a compact unit but it won't fit front wheel drive vehicles for the foreseeable future.

 

 

Valuable and up-to-date info as usual, especially concerning the 8-speed gearbox - thanks Nick!

 

Shame we won't see it on the Ducato... for a long while at least, by the sound of things.