Bulletguy Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 I think it fair to say that a few people are a tad OCD when it comes to vehicle care as opposed to maintenance. Rusting of discs takes a very long time before it becomes anywhere close to serious and would be flagged up at MOT time. For a vehicle standing any considerable length of time, and three months is nothing, as mentioned before it's much more important to ensure the condition of the calipers than the disc. You can have your nice shiny rust free discs.......but a seized caliper/s means you won't be stopping plus be facing a much more expensive bill to overhaul or if having to be replaced will cost way more than new discs! How folk spend their money is up to them but sometimes priorities seem to get muddled. Each to their own as the saying goes. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted December 26, 2015 Author Share Posted December 26, 2015 You completely missed the point of my thread. I am not ocd by any stretch and maintenance is foremost hence the reason my brakes get stripped at service. Why are my calipers likely to seize? Discs do not get failed at MOT until they are shot. Not quite sure whose priorities you think get muddled, certainly not mine as I didn't even hint it was any sort of priority. It seems to be that posting on here brings out all sorts of bizarre comments and views as well as sound information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 audiseller - 2015-12-26 3:15 PM It seems to be that posting on here brings out all sorts of bizarre comments and views as well as sound information. Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted December 26, 2015 Author Share Posted December 26, 2015 Muswell - 2015-12-26 3:23 PM audiseller - 2015-12-26 3:15 PM It seems to be that posting on here brings out all sorts of bizarre comments and views as well as sound information. Really? Read this thread and you will see, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallii Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 Two years back my M/H failed the MOT because the rear brake discs were rusty with surface rust. The surface rust reduced the efficiency of the rear brakes below that required for the MOT. A good wire brush and good drive cleaned things up and resulted in a pass. So in my opinion this is an interesting topic, anything that will stop the surface rust could be useful. I now drive it more over winter and keep the rust at bay (mostly). I can't help but feel that when the older pads with asbestos were in use the rust was far less of a problem, I think that the metal in the discs also changed to suit the new pads, maybe to a more rust prone mix? H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 audiseller - 2015-12-26 3:15 PM You completely missed the point of my thread. I am not ocd by any stretch and maintenance is foremost hence the reason my brakes get stripped at service. Why are my calipers likely to seize? Discs do not get failed at MOT until they are shot. Not quite sure whose priorities you think get muddled, certainly not mine as I didn't even hint it was any sort of priority. It seems to be that posting on here brings out all sorts of bizarre comments and views as well as sound information. Drum brakes of course require the drum to be removed though nothing else than that in order to inspect condition of linings and wheel cylinders. Pad condition can easily be seen often with the wheel still on. If the 'mechanics' of the braking system including handbrake are working......why would anyone have them stripped down and rebuilt? Disc condition can be failed at MOT if "likely to adversely affect the vehicles braking and steering." That's according to VOSA. Caliper pistons are prone to seize when a vehicle is left unused for a considerable length of time. If lucky they can be forced free by pressure but in doing so it's possible to cause damage to the seal. The seals can also perish (indicated by leaking) and pistons are usually made from chromed steel (keeps cost down) which of course rusts. The best pistons are made from high grade stainless which will outlast the vehicle. Brake dust from lining/pads contaminate so it's always a good idea to keep the drum/caliper clean. Brake fluid eventually loses viscosity (takes a good few years) but is something which any half decent Garage would test for on a full service. A pair of new discs (they should always be replaced in pairs) is peanut money. A new caliper is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 I agree halii, I get fed up with cleaning my alloy wheels,only for a half a mile down the road, for them to be covered with all the surface rust ground off of the discs by the brake pads. They also set my teeth on edge while they are doing it ! Just had a search, can get a 500ml spray of Hyde serum for 8.99 in the UK. Will give them a spray before laying up the van, even if only for a few weeks. See whether it works or not ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted December 27, 2015 Author Share Posted December 27, 2015 hallii - 2015-12-26 6:03 PM Two years back my M/H failed the MOT because the rear brake discs were rusty with surface rust. The surface rust reduced the efficiency of the rear brakes below that required for the MOT. A good wire brush and good drive cleaned things up and resulted in a pass. So in my opinion this is an interesting topic, anything that will stop the surface rust could be useful. I now drive it more over winter and keep the rust at bay (mostly). I can't help but feel that when the older pads with asbestos were in use the rust was far less of a problem, I think that the metal in the discs also changed to suit the new pads, maybe to a more rust prone mix? H I agree in general with your post but it sounds as though the MOT station failed your M/H incorrectly as surface rust is not a reason for failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted December 27, 2015 Author Share Posted December 27, 2015 Bulletguy - 2015-12-26 6:26 PM Drum brakes of course require the drum to be removed though nothing else than that in order to inspect condition of linings and wheel cylinders. Pad condition can easily be seen often with the wheel still on. If the 'mechanics' of the braking system including handbrake are working......why would anyone have them stripped down and rebuilt? Disc condition can be failed at MOT if "likely to adversely affect the vehicles braking and steering." That's according to VOSA Why? Because it is good practice and the best way to check the condition of pads & calipers. How else would you see if the pads were disintegrating for instance? It always amuses me when someone says they had their brakes checked at service which usually means the mechanic had a look at the pad thickness and didn't even remove the wheels. I expect any decent workshop to remove the wheels and clean-up the brakes at anything other than an oil & filters service. Surface rust on discs is not a reason for failure for MOT. We all have different standards but I am happy in the knowledge that my M/H is serviced regardless of cost whereas others skimp. Prevention is better than cure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Why should brakes me dismantled for inspection? This is why... http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Brake-pads-and-MOT-Ducato/35154/#M424552 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 audiseller - 2015-12-27 11:07 AM Bulletguy - 2015-12-26 6:26 PM Drum brakes of course require the drum to be removed though nothing else than that in order to inspect condition of linings and wheel cylinders. Pad condition can easily be seen often with the wheel still on. If the 'mechanics' of the braking system including handbrake are working......why would anyone have them stripped down and rebuilt? Disc condition can be failed at MOT if "likely to adversely affect the vehicles braking and steering." That's according to VOSA Why? Because it is good practice and the best way to check the condition of pads & calipers. How else would you see if the pads were disintegrating for instance? It always amuses me when someone says they had their brakes checked at service which usually means the mechanic had a look at the pad thickness and didn't even remove the wheels. I expect any decent workshop to remove the wheels and clean-up the brakes at anything other than an oil & filters service. Surface rust on discs is not a reason for failure for MOT. We all have different standards but I am happy in the knowledge that my M/H is serviced regardless of cost whereas others skimp. Prevention is better than cure. You've now changed from "Discs do not get failed at MOT until they are shot" to "Surface rust on discs is not a reason for failure for MOT." Bit of a difference there! However i stated the reason they can be failed and that's VOSA, not me or my opinion. I just think having them "stripped at every service" is a touch ott but that's my opinion. It's your van so you please yourself. Brambles - 2015-12-27 11:23 AM Why should brakes me dismantled for inspection? This is why... http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Brake-pads-and-MOT-Ducato/35154/#M424552 Not sure what pads you use but i always go for Mintex or Ferodo. Not the cheapest but imo the best and a good tip is to contact their Tech dept, tell them what type of vehicle you want them for and they will advise on which to go for. One of those pads shows signs of scoring so your disc would also be slightly scored and easy enough to spot from a cursory glance or even feel. If enough metal on the discs they can always be skimmed but as i said in a previous post, new discs cost peanut money where a brake caliper is not cheap so it pays to ensure the calipers are kept clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Bulletguy - 2015-12-27 8:49 PM ...new discs cost peanut money where a brake caliper is not cheap... The cost of a brake disc will vary enormously according to the vehicle, as will the cost of a brake caliper. Even when a disc is fairly cheap to buy, replacing a significantly more expensive caliper may cost less than replacing a disc once labour charges have been factored in. For example, replacing a caliper on my Ford Transit Mk-6-based Hobby motorhome would have been straightforward and well within the capability of an average DIY mechanic with the tools he/she might be expected to have. Conversely, replacing a disc would have needed two people, a lot of disassembly and (almost certainly) specialised ‘non-DIY’ tools due to the high torque settings (up to 420Nm) involved in the procedure. The Owner Handbook for the current Ducato specifies that the condition and wear of front and rear disc brake pads and the operation of pad wear indicators be checked on a 2-year basis. The Handbook does not indicate how this check should be performed, but it’s likely that disassembly to check pad condition would only take place if there were signs suggesting it were needed, or the pads looked thin or damaged, or the vehicle’s owner insisted this be done. Anticipating that removal of road-wheels and/or brake disassembly would automatically happen as part of a ‘major’ service is overly optimistic in my view. If you want this to take place, you’d better confirm that the service will include it and, if not, make it plain that you want that work done and are prepared to pay for it. As far as I’m concerned arguing over what might or might not result in MOT test failure is just time-wasting, as a full explanation is available on-line for anyone who can be bothered to read it. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/429032/mot-inspection-manual-classes-3-4-5-7-vehicles.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted December 28, 2015 Author Share Posted December 28, 2015 Thanks for saving me the bother of finding that link Derek. It's several years since I sold my business which included an MOT Station but I knew that the regs wouldn't have changed enough to enable surface rust on brake discs to constitute a reason for failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted December 28, 2015 Author Share Posted December 28, 2015 Bulletguy - 2015-12-27 8:49 PM audiseller - 2015-12-27 11:07 AM Bulletguy - 2015-12-26 6:26 PM Drum brakes of course require the drum to be removed though nothing else than that in order to inspect condition of linings and wheel cylinders. Pad condition can easily be seen often with the wheel still on. If the 'mechanics' of the braking system including handbrake are working......why would anyone have them stripped down and rebuilt? Disc condition can be failed at MOT if "likely to adversely affect the vehicles braking and steering." That's according to VOSA Why? Because it is good practice and the best way to check the condition of pads & calipers. How else would you see if the pads were disintegrating for instance? It always amuses me when someone says they had their brakes checked at service which usually means the mechanic had a look at the pad thickness and didn't even remove the wheels. I expect any decent workshop to remove the wheels and clean-up the brakes at anything other than an oil & filters service. Surface rust on discs is not a reason for failure for MOT. We all have different standards but I am happy in the knowledge that my M/H is serviced regardless of cost whereas others skimp. Prevention is better than cure. You've now changed from "Discs do not get failed at MOT until they are shot" to "Surface rust on discs is not a reason for failure for MOT." Bit of a difference there! However i stated the reason they can be failed and that's VOSA, not me or my opinion. I just think having them "stripped at every service" is a touch ott but that's my opinion. It's your van so you please yourself. Brambles - 2015-12-27 11:23 AM Why should brakes me dismantled for inspection? This is why... http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Brake-pads-and-MOT-Ducato/35154/#M424552 Not sure what pads you use but i always go for Mintex or Ferodo. Not the cheapest but imo the best and a good tip is to contact their Tech dept, tell them what type of vehicle you want them for and they will advise on which to go for. One of those pads shows signs of scoring so your disc would also be slightly scored and easy enough to spot from a cursory glance or even feel. If enough metal on the discs they can always be skimmed but as i said in a previous post, new discs cost peanut money where a brake caliper is not cheap so it pays to ensure the calipers are kept clean. My statements regarding discs and MOT failure still stand, where's the contradiction you refer to? At what point did I say that I have my brakes stripped at every service? Disc skimming? Just carry on but not for me thanks. It seems you are deliberately misreading my posts just to be contrary. Thanks for your final advice regarding being able to do what I want because it is my van but I was always going to do that anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 audiseller - 2015-12-28 10:47 AM Thanks for your final advice regarding being able to do what I want because it is my van but I was always going to do that anyway. No problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 audiseller - 2015-12-28 10:47 AM Bulletguy - 2015-12-27 8:49 PM audiseller - 2015-12-27 11:07 AM Bulletguy - 2015-12-26 6:26 PM Drum brakes of course require the drum to be removed though nothing else than that in order to inspect condition of linings and wheel cylinders. Pad condition can easily be seen often with the wheel still on. If the 'mechanics' of the braking system including handbrake are working......why would anyone have them stripped down and rebuilt? Disc condition can be failed at MOT if "likely to adversely affect the vehicles braking and steering." That's according to VOSA Why? Because it is good practice and the best way to check the condition of pads & calipers. How else would you see if the pads were disintegrating for instance? It always amuses me when someone says they had their brakes checked at service which usually means the mechanic had a look at the pad thickness and didn't even remove the wheels. I expect any decent workshop to remove the wheels and clean-up the brakes at anything other than an oil & filters service. Surface rust on discs is not a reason for failure for MOT. We all have different standards but I am happy in the knowledge that my M/H is serviced regardless of cost whereas others skimp. Prevention is better than cure. You've now changed from "Discs do not get failed at MOT until they are shot" to "Surface rust on discs is not a reason for failure for MOT." Bit of a difference there! However i stated the reason they can be failed and that's VOSA, not me or my opinion. I just think having them "stripped at every service" is a touch ott but that's my opinion. It's your van so you please yourself. Brambles - 2015-12-27 11:23 AM Why should brakes me dismantled for inspection? This is why... http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Brake-pads-and-MOT-Ducato/35154/#M424552 Not sure what pads you use but i always go for Mintex or Ferodo. Not the cheapest but imo the best and a good tip is to contact their Tech dept, tell them what type of vehicle you want them for and they will advise on which to go for. One of those pads shows signs of scoring so your disc would also be slightly scored and easy enough to spot from a cursory glance or even feel. If enough metal on the discs they can always be skimmed but as i said in a previous post, new discs cost peanut money where a brake caliper is not cheap so it pays to ensure the calipers are kept clean. My statements regarding discs and MOT failure still stand, where's the contradiction you refer to? At what point did I say that I have my brakes stripped at every service? Disc skimming? Just carry on but not for me thanks. It seems you are deliberately misreading my posts just to be contrary. Thanks for your final advice regarding being able to do what I want because it is my van but I was always going to do that anyway. Hate to be to picky but you did say to me in a reply on the 26 December that you 'had the brakes stripped and cleaned at every service'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted December 28, 2015 Author Share Posted December 28, 2015 rupert123 - 2015-12-28 4:30 Hate to be to picky but you did say to me in a reply on the 26 December that you 'had the brakes stripped and cleaned at every service'. If you like to be picky it pays dividends to be accurate to prevent looking foolish. I see that for some reason you inserted the word "every" into your reading of my post. If you had bothered to read my post dated 27th you would have seen that I qualified that statement by saying "at anything other than an oil & filters service". Must be at that age you need reading glasses I'm guessing. You don't seem to have added much to this post at all, I wonder why that is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 And once again a topic that started with a perfectly reasonable question has degenerated into a battle of the egos. We are indeed fortunate to have so many experts on this forum but I guess that is the downside! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted December 28, 2015 Author Share Posted December 28, 2015 Tracker - 2015-12-28 7:41 PM And once again a topic that started with a perfectly reasonable question has degenerated into a battle of the egos. We are indeed fortunate to have so many experts on this forum but I guess that is the downside! Trolls on every forum these days unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallii Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I quote from my own post "Two years back my M/H failed the MOT because the rear brake discs were rusty with surface rust. The surface rust reduced the efficiency of the rear brakes below that required for the MOT." Rust in itself is not a reason for MOT failure. The reduced efficiency where it does not meet the required standard most certainly is. H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 audiseller - 2015-12-28 8:09 PM Trolls on every forum these days unfortunately. That may be your view, it is not at all what I said, but there are as ever number of people who are always happy to misunderstand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted December 28, 2015 Author Share Posted December 28, 2015 Tracker - 2015-12-28 8:29 PM audiseller - 2015-12-28 8:09 PM Trolls on every forum these days unfortunately. That may be your view but it is not at all what I said. I only ever express my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 audiseller - 2015-12-28 8:31 PM Tracker - 2015-12-28 8:29 PM audiseller - 2015-12-28 8:09 PM Trolls on every forum these days unfortunately. That may be your view but it is not at all what I said. I only ever express my view. Continuing this discussion will add nothing so I will not continue it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted December 28, 2015 Author Share Posted December 28, 2015 hallii - 2015-12-28 8:22 PM I quote from my own post "Two years back my M/H failed the MOT because the rear brake discs were rusty with surface rust. The surface rust reduced the efficiency of the rear brakes below that required for the MOT." Rust in itself is not a reason for MOT failure. The reduced efficiency where it does not meet the required standard most certainly is. H Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiseller Posted December 28, 2015 Author Share Posted December 28, 2015 Tracker - 2015-12-28 8:32 PM audiseller - 2015-12-28 8:31 PM Tracker - 2015-12-28 8:29 PM audiseller - 2015-12-28 8:09 PM Trolls on every forum these days unfortunately. That may be your view but it is not at all what I said. I only ever express my view. Whatever!!!!! Indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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