Malevolent Mains Cables

[Bulletguy]

StuartO - 2016-05-08 3:09 PM

aandncaravan - 2016-05-08 1:34 PM Motorhome/Caravan EHU lead should be 25amp, not 16amp which is a fire risk. BS7671 stipulates it should be 3 x 2.5mm cores, when 16a is usually a much thinner 1.5mm core. 

As I undertand it, from Wikipedia, so it must be right, BS7671 "wiring regs" have evolved through many "editions" over the years and now align in most respects with a European harmonisation version.  Except for the plugs and wall sockets of course.  Yet you don't see thick orange cable like the standard stuff sold in UK when you are abroad do you?  I bought an extra supposedly caravan extension cable on EBay last year, orange cable with blue connectors, and it turned out to be 1.5mm rather than 2.5mm.

 

Rules are made to be broken?

Never!! Brits are instantly identifiable by their huge gauge heavy EHU cable! Possibly the most power i draw when on site is for my standard size Dometic fridge, yet many foreign registered vans are running power everything from whizzing satellite dishes to huge tv's, power showers and God knows what else.I scoured fleabay for a cable winder which would help but as yet haven't found one capable of taking such crazily thick heavy cable whilst still being compact enough not to need a damn trailer to store it in!

[pepe63xnotuse]

Bulletguy - 2016-05-08 5:08 PM

 

I scoured fleabay for a cable winder which would help but as yet haven't found one capable of taking such crazily thick heavy cable whilst still being compact enough not to need a damn trailer to store it in!

 

We've used one of these, with our last two coach-built MHs (where it stood upright,in the under-bed/seat storage).and it easily took our "thick" 25m cable..

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/AudioKraft-Cable-Empty-types-Cables/dp/B015UV3MYO/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1462728009&sr=8-4&keywords=audio+cable+reel

 

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

StuartO - 2016-05-08 3:09 PM

aandncaravan - 2016-05-08 1:34 PM Motorhome/Caravan EHU lead should be 25amp, not 16amp which is a fire risk. BS7671 stipulates it should be 3 x 2.5mm cores, when 16a is usually a much thinner 1.5mm core. 

As I undertand it, from Wikipedia, so it must be right, BS7671 "wiring regs" have evolved through many "editions" over the years and now align in most respects with a European harmonisation version.  Except for the plugs and wall sockets of course.  Yet you don't see thick orange cable like the standard stuff sold in UK when you are abroad do you?  I bought an extra supposedly caravan extension cable on EBay last year, orange cable with blue connectors, and it turned out to be 1.5mm rather than 2.5mm.

 

Rules are made to be broken?

If you follow the link and read the full version of why it should be 2.5mm cable and not 1.5mm, you will see the Caravan Club PDF which quotes BS7671 2001 version Regs. Later versions of the regs have not downsized the Cable requirement.You are right a lot of people are using undersized cable in the UK. We highlight on the page that we also bought an EHU Lead described specifically as 16a Motorhome/Caravan cable, when it was 1.5mm so not up to the standard. That there is a safety issue from undersize Leads is possibly borne witness by some of the Forum items about cables getting Hot, 'melting into the snow' I read on one, and another as 'a melted plastic mess'.

[Charles]

I used a 1.5mm cable for years with no problems. If you use common sense it's fine. You'd probably have to pull 30amps continuously for it to get hot enough to melt (whilst uncoiled). The 2.5mm cables are for people with no electrical common sense. Foolproof.

[candapack]

Can't believe you're still "hard-wiring" your hookups.

We downloaded the "Wireless Leccy" app, available for Apple and Android. And Autotrail.

But then we decided to not use mains electric at all, ever, so in hindsight, can't say how good or not the app is.

Hmmmm!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[aandncaravan]

Charles, I can't believe you have written that? 30amps down 1.5mm??

 

Check out any website for cable rating vs current and look up 1.5mm. Some show it's maximum continuous as low as 14.4amps when used in long lengths, and that is for a single core cable. Some sites recommend a factor of 0.75 should be applied when it's multicore, i.e. 3 core Motorhome cable.

 

Thick sheathed cable, for protection against being driven over, will have an even lower rating because of the insulation properties of the outer Orange sheath.

 

Why do British House Regs specify such a huge 6.0mm cable for a 30A Cooker circuit? Would you seriously tell an Electrician to use 1.5mm in your house on the 30amp Cooker circuit?

 

 

When the whole point of our post is to improve awareness on this potentially serious safety issue, for you to then say, "ignore it and throw 30amps through it" is just beyond my understanding.

 

 

However, all that aside, the post and page talks about usability, i.e getting the maximum amps/volts in the vehicle, safely.

 

 

 

 

[Charles]

I'm not saying you should pull 30amps on a 1.5mm flex of course. Did you read my post properly?

I was saying what you would have to do (stupidly) to melt your flex. Therefore they are safe if you possess common sense.

[aandncaravan]

Charles - 2016-05-08 6:53 PM

 

I used a 1.5mm cable for years with no problems. If you use common sense it's fine. You'd probably have to pull 30amps continuously for it to get hot enough to melt (whilst uncoiled). The 2.5mm cables are for people with no electrical common sense. Foolproof.

 

Charles I read it as -

"Take with a pinch of salt the Electrical safety regulations and the advice of the Caravan Club. 1.5mm is fine, good for 30amps before it melts. The proper rated 2.5mm cable is for fools".

 

 

But then that is me, always getting things wrong

 

.

 

 

[Rayjsj]

I must be unusual, as i never have a problem using the standard orange sheathed 16amp 25 metre cable, i keep it on an oblong cable tidy, with an open core, to help with any heating of the cable, and have never had a problem. We use a standard 2.2 kw kettle, and dont stay on any sites with less than 10amp supply. Again, dont have any problems. If we wildcamp, we have 2 x 110amp 12v batteries, and gas......we manage.

[geordie01]

Harvey - 2016-05-07 12:07 PM

 

Since I have been using this method demonstrated on youtube:-

 

 

I have had no problems with leads. You only need to undo as much as you need and leave the rest 'coiled' on the ground. Plenty of cooling air around the 'coils' so no overheating problems as with a partially unwound cable on reel. My wife refers to it as 'crocheting'.

 

I did have a link to a much better youtube demo of this but I have lost it.

 

Harvey

Yep works for me used this for ages

[Dave225]

Lots of comments, lots of opinons and as usual, not a lot of conclusions. Must be a motorhome Forum.

 

However, there are a few nuggets I would add. Every piece of electriocal equipment supplied in the Uk comes with a fused plug. The maximum fuse that is supplied is 13 amp so any power supply in ecess of 13 amps will power the equipment but will not cause any issues as the fuse will blow. Now 13 amps is equivalent to 2990 watts so unles you plug inanything greater than this, no problems will occur. Of course those that insist on using a 3 kilowatt kettle on a campsite are not doing themselves, or anyone else any favours. So, pleaase leave the domestic kettle at home and get a lower wattage model. It may take a few minutes more but you will make all campers happy campers.

 

Again, I look at my own outfits. Kettlke (900 watts), toaster (750 watts), Tv, n ot relevant as it is 12 volt, hair dryer for her ladyship (1000 watts), Outside hotplate (1600 watts). So I would have to plug the whole lot in at the same time to cause issues. But using any of them will not blow a 10 amp circuit, so a 10 amp cable is just fine.

 

No disprespect to the boffins but my campervan has a control box with 20 amp circuit fuse, my cable is rated at 16 amps yet my plug is fused at 13 amps. So, where do you draw the line? It has to be 13 amps which is well above anyting I use.

 

I think if we all remember we are camping then things work out just fine.

[aandncaravan]

Dave, what about the 3 amp Fridge, the 10a Space Heater, the 5a Water Heater, the 2 amp battery charger, etc (20 amps total) that some people have running in the background some of the time?

 

Add the small contribution of the Laptop, phone charger, Xbox, etc and it can all add up for some people some of the time to a fair load before they even get the Hairdryer out of the cupboard, let alone the Toaster and the Kettle?

 

Your post shows just how much power people may use without realising. Few take into account the Fridge and Charger, just as you don't seem to have mentioned it above?

 

And that's part of my point, it is very easy to exceed the limits of a 1.5mm cable, exactly why the regulations stipulate a safety margin.

 

 

Not quite sure of the point of your reply but it seems to be saying the same as Charles in that a safety mandated Electrical regulation cable is not necessary?

 

If a newbie reading this Post follows the advice to ignore safety, and their Motorhome, plus them, are subsequently Burnt, would you be happy with your advice?

 

I am not sure I understand the logic behind an argument trying to prove you can ignore safety when the implications can be so dramatic?

 

Regardless of what each Forum owner does in their own van, shouldn't the 'public' face of the Forum be one of support? Especially for all the many people who wander in and out of the Forum for advice because their knowledge isn't as great as it might be and that is why they have joined?

 

[Bulletguy]

pepe63 - 2016-05-08 6:29 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2016-05-08 5:08 PM

 

I scoured fleabay for a cable winder which would help but as yet haven't found one capable of taking such crazily thick heavy cable whilst still being compact enough not to need a damn trailer to store it in!

 

We've used one of these, with our last two coach-built MHs (where it stood upright,in the under-bed/seat storage).and it easily took our "thick" 25m cable..

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/AudioKraft-Cable-Empty-types-Cables/dp/B015UV3MYO/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1462728009&sr=8-4&keywords=audio+cable+reel

 

Yes i've actually got one of those but purpose built as an extension mains so couldn't be converted. The problem for me is the size....space is at a premium in pvc's! I have a back box but almost certain it wouldn't fit in there.

 

I found this on fleabay which looks more compact, but there is no dimensions stated. I need to know the width more than anything so have emailed the seller.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151943634908?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&var=451123882995&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[StuartO]

If your MH cannot draw more than 10 amps (for example mine has a 10 amp circuit breaker connecting the MH's electrics to the EHU receiver fitting) then a 10 amp cable will be safe enough, because even though I might have electrical devices which, if they were all switched on together, could attempt to draw more than 10 amps.  If that happened my 10 amp MCB would trip, even if the EHU post is rated at 16 amps and even if I was using a 16 amp EHU cable, so a 10 amp cable would be sufficient and would be protected by my 10 amp MCB.

 

I think that's the point which Charles and Dave are trying to make, if your MH, (or failing that you yourself) restricts your maximum current draw to 10 amps, then a 10 amp EHU cable will be able to cope.

 

 

 

[RogerThat]

Tall_Mike - 2016-05-07 2:33 PM

 

did wonder if the van could have a fitted cable roll that you simply extend when you need it, bit like our hoover,?

 

Great idea! Has anyone done anything like this??

 

[Charles]

aandncaravan - 2016-05-09 7:54 PM

 

Dave, what about the 3 amp Fridge, the 10a Space Heater, the 5a Water Heater, the 2 amp battery charger, etc (20 amps total) that some people have running in the background some of the time?

 

Add the small contribution of the Laptop, phone charger, Xbox, etc and it can all add up for some people some of the time to a fair load before they even get the Hairdryer out of the cupboard, let alone the Toaster and the Kettle?

 

Your post shows just how much power people may use without realising. Few take into account the Fridge and Charger, just as you don't seem to have mentioned it above?

 

And that's part of my point, it is very easy to exceed the limits of a 1.5mm cable, exactly why the regulations stipulate a safety margin.

 

 

Not quite sure of the point of your reply but it seems to be saying the same as Charles in that a safety mandated Electrical regulation cable is not necessary?

 

If a newbie reading this Post follows the advice to ignore safety, and their Motorhome, plus them, are subsequently Burnt, would you be happy with your advice?

 

I am not sure I understand the logic behind an argument trying to prove you can ignore safety when the implications can be so dramatic?

 

Regardless of what each Forum owner does in their own van, shouldn't the 'public' face of the Forum be one of support? Especially for all the many people who wander in and out of the Forum for advice because their knowledge isn't as great as it might be and that is why they have joined?

 

 

I agree a&n if you don't know anything about electricity the 2.5mm hook up cable is the one for you (it is foolproof). But if you know your amps, what is wrong with using a cable that you know perfectly well is good enough for what you want?

[aandncaravan]

"I agree A & N, if you don't know anything about electricity the 2.5mm hook up cable is the one for you (it is foolproof). But if you know your amps, what is wrong with using a cable that you know perfectly well is good enough for what you want?"

 

 

It is wrong because it breaks Electrical REGULATIONS, that's why.

 

If I ask an Electrician to rewire my House Ring Main in undersize 1.5mm cable, because I tell him I will manage the load by only plugging in one 13A plug at a time, the Electrician can face Prosecution. If I really asked that, I should face Jail too.

 

Electrical Regulations are encased in Law, not just advice from some old man who runs a repair shop.

 

 

But regulations aside, are you not advocating that some idiot should be allowed to make an EHU Lead out of some old Speaker wire, so long as he knows about electricity and limits the load, wouldn't that be ok?

 

Are you also suggesting it's ok that he should escape prosecution if he burns down his Motorhome and all the ones next to him in his row while the occupants are asleep?

 

 

Surely it is good idea to have an Electrical Safety Regulation that species the size, cores, length, etc?

 

Well there is, and it specifies 2.5mm minimum cores.

 

No matter that you think 1.5mm is appropriate, the Regulations say it isn't.

Are you are saying you should be exempt from the Regulation because you know about Electricity?

 

 

It's not just about regulations and Law, it's common sense.

 

See here for the Caravan Club PDF of the Regulations and what they have to say :

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/hookup-leads.php

 

 

[Charles]

"But regulations aside, are you not advocating that some idiot should be allowed to make an EHU Lead out of some old Speaker wire, so long as he knows about electricity and limits the load, wouldn't that be ok?

"

 

He wouldn't be an "idiot" if he knew about electricity would he.

 

I'm not going to argue with you any more. Unless I woke up in North Korea this morning, when my heavy 2.5mm 25m EHU cable needs replacing, I will replace it with cheaper, lighter and very adequate (for me) 1.5mm flex.

 

As I said earlier you would have to pull at least 30 amps continuously to melt a 1.5mm cable.

[Tracker]

All that is required is a modicum of basic knowledge about the relationship between amps, volts, watts, and heat build up plus a dollop of common sense and habitual good practise.

 

Enough knowledge, common sense and good practise to know the cable's current carrying capacity and not to run too much power through it.

 

Enough knowledge, common sense and good practise to uncoil the cable fully and check it for heat now and then, preferably when on as much load as you will ever use.

 

How hard can it be for heaven's sake?

 

Why don't we just keep it simple?

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Charles - 2016-05-10 12:58 AM

 

 

He wouldn't be an "idiot" if he knew about electricity would he.

 

I'm not going to argue with you any more. Unless I woke up in North Korea this morning, when my heavy 2.5mm 25m EHU cable needs replacing, I will replace it with cheaper, lighter and very adequate (for me) 1.5mm flex.

 

As I said earlier you would have to pull at least 30 amps continuously to melt a 1.5mm cable.

 

 

Charles, the thought that you believe, "you would have to pull at least 30 amps continuously to melt a 1.5mm cable", is absolutely horrifying.

 

A 1.5mm multicore thick sheathed cable can struggle with 18amps!!!

 

30amps will melt a 2.5mm cable!!

 

 

I really, really wouldn't sleep at night if my Motorhome was parked next to yours!!

 

 

Sorry but I most definitely don't agree that someone who thinks they 'know' about Electricity isn't an idiot.

 

 

As for keeping it simple, isn't that why the Regulations are there to provide Statutory, idiot proof rules?

 

 

 

[pepe63xnotuse]

Bulletguy - 2016-05-09 8:26 PM

 

pepe63 - 2016-05-08 6:29 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2016-05-08 5:08 PM

 

I scoured fleabay for a cable winder which would help but as yet haven't found one capable of taking such crazily thick heavy cable whilst still being compact enough not to need a damn trailer to store it in!

 

We've used one of these, with our last two coach-built MHs (where it stood upright,in the under-bed/seat storage).and it easily took our "thick" 25m cable..

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/AudioKraft-Cable-Empty-types-Cables/dp/B015UV3MYO/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1462728009&sr=8-4&keywords=audio+cable+reel

 

Yes i've actually got one of those but purpose built as an extension mains so couldn't be converted. The problem for me is the size....space is at a premium in pvc's! I have a back box but almost certain it wouldn't fit in there.

 

I found this on fleabay which looks more compact, but there is no dimensions stated. I need to know the width more than anything so have emailed the seller.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151943634908?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&var=451123882995&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Hi Paul...Sorry, I thought you were just after a reel to take you existing "thick heavy cable"?

 

Our reel(as Amazon link) is 11"x7" overall footprint size and is just under 15" to top of handle (but only 12.5" to top of drum, so you could cut the horizontal handle off?) and when wound on, all our cable sits within the dia of the drum.

 

In the van we bought it for, it fit nicely in an under seat locker..and as the locker had outside access, it could be left in place and the cable just dragged off it.

As the locker was also next to the caravan-style external battery box, by having a few foot of the van-end of the cable fed through the reel and left wound on those side cleats, it made it quite a neat, simple way of connecting up..

 

As you've a back box(presumably for "external clobber"?)could you not look at making a drum that'd remain "bolted" inside that?..*maybe wire a "blue" panel socket onto the drum's centre plate and then just use a short 2-3 mtr patch lead to hook to the van socket?

(* our side cleats would only take about 1.5mtr of cable).

 

 

[rupert123]

Charles - 2016-05-10 12:58 AM

 

"But regulations aside, are you not advocating that some idiot should be allowed to make an EHU Lead out of some old Speaker wire, so long as he knows about electricity and limits the load, wouldn't that be ok?

"

 

He wouldn't be an "idiot" if he knew about electricity would he.

 

I'm not going to argue with you any more. Unless I woke up in North Korea this morning, when my heavy 2.5mm 25m EHU cable needs replacing, I will replace it with cheaper, lighter and very adequate (for me) 1.5mm flex.

 

As I said earlier you would have to pull at least 30 amps continuously to melt a 1.5mm cable.

Not sure where you got this one from Charles. A 1.5mm cable is rated at 14 amps, now while I agree it is ok most of the time it is a dangerous assumption that it will take 30 amps. From a practical point of view no hookup point I have ever seen will let you anyway, it will simply trip out. As had been said though you need to be more careful with it, especially uncoiling , common sense again.

[Tracker]

Quite a few years ago long before regulations ruled our lives an old electrician once told me that if you use a max of 10 amps @ 230 volts ac per 1.0mm cable you won't go far wrong, and I've used that guideline ever since without any issues.

 

So for a 1.00 mm cable for me it's a max 10 amps, 1.5 mm = 15 amps, 2.0 mm = 20 amps and 2.5 mm = 25 amps.

 

As a non expert, but very cautious and respectful of it's power, user of electricity I would be grateful if one of the experts who fully inderstands these things could please let me know if this is wrong?

 

[rupert123]

Tracker - 2016-05-10 10:09 AM

 

Quite a few years ago long before regulations ruled our lives an old electrician once told me that if you use a max of 10 amps @ 230 volts ac per 1.0mm cable you won't go far wrong, and I've used that guideline ever since without any issues.

 

So for a 1.00 mm cable for me it's a max 10 amps, 1.5 mm = 15 amps, 2.0 mm = 20 amps and 2.5 mm = 25 amps.

 

If one of the experts could please let me know if this is wrong I would be grateful?

That is about right, but hang on here Rich since when did you carry a hookup lead?

[Tracker]

rupert123 - 2016-05-10 10:11 AM

That is about right, but hang on here Rich since when did you carry a hookup lead?

 

I don't, but the same rules apply around the house and garden innit!

 

(Actually I do now that we have a proper coachbuilt again with plenty of storage, just in case we ever get a total gas or 12v failure so I could go to an aire (or even a site) and continue our holiday with hot food and a cuppa, warmth and hot water whilst I sort it, but it has never been used except once a year to test the system!)