corbyn or owen?

[derek pringle]

Hi

With polling finishing on Wednesday who do you think will/should win.

One wants the high officers of the party to be elected by the members and not necessarily the leader and the other wants to re-run the Brexit referendum.

Neither policy seems a big pull factor to Labour.

cheers

derek

[Tracker]

It matters not - they are both mad and obsessed with the same old rhetoric and idealism that has been proven not to work for the vast majority of the electorate.

 

They are both so far out of touch with the real world that they earestly say they have thousands of new supporters - totally ignoring the millions that don't support them.

 

Heaven knows this country needs a strong opposition to curb the Tory excesses but neither of these two has, in my humble view, what it takes to unite the Labour party and do just that - let alone run the country.

 

The Lib Dems seem to be a spent force with their leader now wetter than a fillet of cod on a slab so maybe UKIP still have the opportunity to become an effective opposition if they can get a few more MPs, but I'm not holding my breath!

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Never thought I'd ever agree with a word Kinnock said.........until yesterday :D ..........

 

 

[Violet1956]

I think Corbyn will win and like Dave P I never thought I would agree with Neil Kinnock but I do on this one. The Labour party will never win a general election in his lifetime. The rot set in when Ed did the dirty on his brother. :-(

[StuartO]

With lots of Labour MPs already on Corbyn's deselection list, do we think there is a split in the Party coming next?  They've got nothing to lose by trying it have they?

 

[starvin marvin]

Corbyn by a country mile, I'm pleased to say.

[Guest pelmetman]

starvin marvin - 2016-09-20 6:27 PM

 

Corbyn by a country mile, I'm pleased to say.

 

If Corbyn wins.....every other non Labour voter will be pleased too :D ......

[starvin marvin]

pelmetman - 2016-09-20 6:40 PM

 

starvin marvin - 2016-09-20 6:27 PM

 

Corbyn by a country mile, I'm pleased to say.

 

If Corbyn wins.....every other non Labour voter will be pleased too :D ......

 

Good, if they're non labour voters. For sure we need to win back lost voters, but in 3 years we naturally lose a lot of old buggers and gain a lot of new voters, including the newcomers to the UK.

 

I'll let you into a secret, the next scheduled general election of 2020, has always been a bit too soon for a Labour victory, it's not done enough penance yet. What we do have time for is the much needed task of clearing out the old Blairites and quasi Tories, which is the next job.

 

Oppositions don't win elections, they never have, governments lose them.

[Guest pelmetman]

starvin marvin - 2016-09-20 8:30 PM

 

pelmetman - 2016-09-20 6:40 PM

 

starvin marvin - 2016-09-20 6:27 PM

 

Corbyn by a country mile, I'm pleased to say.

 

If Corbyn wins.....every other non Labour voter will be pleased too :D ......

 

Good, if they're non labour voters. For sure we need to win back lost voters, but in 3 years we naturally lose a lot of old buggers and gain a lot of new voters, including the newcomers to the UK.

 

I'll let you into a secret, the next scheduled general election of 2020, has always been a bit too soon for a Labour victory, it's not done enough penance yet. What we do have time for is the much needed task of clearing out the old Blairites and quasi Tories, which is the next job.

 

Oppositions don't win elections, they never have, governments lose them.

 

Which way do you think the electorate is moving?.......according to the Guardian its to the left.....but the Telegraph reckons to the right.....no surprise there ;-) .........

 

My own sense is given the outcome of BREXIT I'd say too the right :D ......

 

 

[antony1969]

starvin marvin - 2016-09-20 6:27 PM

 

Corbyn by a country mile, I'm pleased to say.

 

Me too and the vast majority of the country .... Fellas a plank and long may he lead the ' opposition '

[antony1969]

pelmetman - 2016-09-20 8:45 PM

 

starvin marvin - 2016-09-20 8:30 PM

 

pelmetman - 2016-09-20 6:40 PM

 

starvin marvin - 2016-09-20 6:27 PM

 

Corbyn by a country mile, I'm pleased to say.

 

If Corbyn wins.....every other non Labour voter will be pleased too :D ......

 

Good, if they're non labour voters. For sure we need to win back lost voters, but in 3 years we naturally lose a lot of old buggers and gain a lot of new voters, including the newcomers to the UK.

 

I'll let you into a secret, the next scheduled general election of 2020, has always been a bit too soon for a Labour victory, it's not done enough penance yet. What we do have time for is the much needed task of clearing out the old Blairites and quasi Tories, which is the next job.

 

Oppositions don't win elections, they never have, governments lose them.

 

Which way do you think the electorate is moving?.......according to the Guardian its to the left.....but the Telegraph reckons to the right.....no surprise there ;-) .........

 

My own sense is given the outcome of BREXIT I'd say too the right :D ......

 

 

Along with the rest of Europe Dave its to the right ... Wet hanky politics is dead

[Tracker]

Alas Smith and Corbyn

 

Sounds like a good name for a comedy tv show.

 

But if Corbyn expects to win and Smith expects to lose is it a set up?

[starvin marvin]

pelmetman - 2016-09-20 8:45 PM

 

starvin marvin - 2016-09-20 8:30 PM

 

pelmetman - 2016-09-20 6:40 PM

 

starvin marvin - 2016-09-20 6:27 PM

 

Corbyn by a country mile, I'm pleased to say.

 

If Corbyn wins.....every other non Labour voter will be pleased too :D ......

 

Good, if they're non labour voters. For sure we need to win back lost voters, but in 3 years we naturally lose a lot of old buggers and gain a lot of new voters, including the newcomers to the UK.

 

I'll let you into a secret, the next scheduled general election of 2020, has always been a bit too soon for a Labour victory, it's not done enough penance yet. What we do have time for is the much needed task of clearing out the old Blairites and quasi Tories, which is the next job.

 

Oppositions don't win elections, they never have, governments lose them.

 

Which way do you think the electorate is moving?.......according to the Guardian its to the left.....but the Telegraph reckons to the right.....no surprise there ;-) .........

 

My own sense is given the outcome of BREXIT I'd say too the right :D ......

 

 

I currently think its not clear, certainly amongst the people I know, who are by no means all on the left there is a move away from the centre right to the centre left. To me it seems the general lack of compassion by the last two governments to those less fortunate has and continues to be a key mover in opinions.

 

I myself voted for Brexit, but not because of immigration, governance etc but of the lack of further integration. I sense from what I hear that there is a growing feeling that an increasing number of out voters are having second thoughts, but that's just a straw poll.

 

Finally I'm not at all confident that we will exit the EU, particularly if the process is dragged out. What will be interesting is the outcome of both the French and German elections, which is what May is waiting for.

 

Summing up, outlook foggy.

 

 

[StuartO]

starvin marvin - 2016-09-20 8:30 PM...... I'll let you into a secret, the next scheduled general election of 2020, has always been a bit too soon for a Labour victory, it's not done enough penance yet. What we do have time for is the much needed task of clearing out the old Blairites and quasi Tories, which is the next job. Oppositions don't win elections, they never have, governments lose them.

 

But wasn't it the command of the centre (after the Tories moved to the right and behaving too much like a bunch of corrupt crooks) which allowed Blair to win general elections for New Labour?  I know that Blair himself became seen as something of a dishonest crook too but why is centerist politics (as distinct from Blair personally) now something Labour is so keen to distance itself from?

 

I can see that the Left are seizing the day, hanging on to the Leadership and preparing to continue hanging on by deselecting non-Left MPs but if Corbyn drops dead before they rig all the rules their way, under the present rules the Labour MPs would have to approve candidates for a successor and the likes of Margaret Beckett would hardly make the same mistake again.

 

As you say governments lose election and oppositions step into the opportunity of the gap the failing government have created.  Surely this would also apply to being the official Opposition?  If Corbyn wins the Leadership again, as seems likely, and lots of Labour MPs then resign the Labour Whip (but remain as MPs) then even if they don't form another Party themselves, we could still see a change of Leader of the Opposition, simply because Corbyn has lost his support?

[starvin marvin]

StuartO - 2016-09-22 9:45 AM

starvin marvin - 2016-09-20 8:30 PM...... I'll let you into a secret, the next scheduled general election of 2020, has always been a bit too soon for a Labour victory, it's not done enough penance yet. What we do have time for is the much needed task of clearing out the old Blairites and quasi Tories, which is the next job. Oppositions don't win elections, they never have, governments lose them.

 

But wasn't it the command of the centre (after the Tories moved to the right and behaving too much like a bunch of corrupt crooks) which allowed Blair to win general elections for New Labour?  I know that Blair himself became seen as something of a dishonest crook too but why is centerist politics (as distinct from Blair personally) now something Labour is so keen to distance itself from?

 

I can see that the Left are seizing the day, hanging on to the Leadership and preparing to continue hanging on by deselecting non-Left MPs but if Corbyn drops dead before they rig all the rules their way, under the present rules the Labour MPs would have to approve candidates for a successor and the likes of Margaret Beckett would hardly make the same mistake again.

 

As you say governments lose election and oppositions step into the opportunity of the gap the failing government have created.  Surely this would also apply to being the official Opposition?  If Corbyn wins the Leadership again, as seems likely, and lots of Labour MPs then resign the Labour Whip (but remain as MPs) then even if they don't form another Party themselves, we could still see a change of Leader of the Opposition, simply because Corbyn has lost his support?

Its important for political parties to have a USP, if it loses that, in the eyes of voters it will be in trouble. All governments eventually run out of ideas. Some leaders have big question marks over their legacy and this taints the party. A point is generally reached where the public stop blaming the previous government and start blaming the current one.We will soon see if Corbyn is re-elected as leader and the size of the majority, whether existing Labour MP's resign the whip, form another party as a result etc etc is hypothetical, turkeys don't usually vote for Xmas. We don't have long to wait.All your suggestions are possible, but unlikely. The centre ground is not fixed in some way, its a flexible grouping that changes on all types of issues. Parties need to give them (the centre) a small number of issues that they will identify with and then generally support those policies. That is the trick, pull that off and you tend to be ok. You must not neglect them or take them for granted, just in the same way you must always be able to carry your core supporters with you. This can be extremely difficult as it depends on what is called "events". This is what makes politics, and political history so interesting, and we are clearly in interesting times, I'm sure you will agree, but no revolution....yet! Long live democracy, warts and all.

[StuartO]

starvin marvin - 2016-09-22 6:20 PM Its important for political parties to have a USP, if it loses that, in the eyes of voters it will be in trouble. All governments eventually run out of ideas. Some leaders have big question marks over their legacy and this taints the party. A point is generally reached where the public stop blaming the previous government and start blaming the current one.We will soon see if Corbyn is re-elected as leader and the size of the majority, whether existing Labour MP's resign the whip, form another party as a result etc etc is hypothetical, turkeys don't usually vote for Xmas. We don't have long to wait.All your suggestions are possible, but unlikely. The centre ground is not fixed in some way, its a flexible grouping that changes on all types of issues. Parties need to give them (the centre) a small number of issues that they will identify with and then generally support those policies. That is the trick, pull that off and you tend to be ok. You must not neglect them or take them for granted, just in the same way you must always be able to carry your core supporters with you. This can be extremely difficult as it depends on what is called "events". This is what makes politics, and political history so interesting, and we are clearly in interesting times, I'm sure you will agree, but no revolution....yet! Long live democracy, warts and all.

The Labour Party's USP (unique selling point?) as I understood it was closely associated with trade unionism and defending the working man against exploitation by "them", i.e. the capitalist owners.  There were enough working people who believed in the necessity of this perpetual fight against oppression to sustain a party based on that core belief.

 

But society has changed in a big way over the past hundred years and this core purpose and identity doesn't really fit the modern world in which the underclass are not workers with a work ethic at all, indeed there are plenty of ways in which they can be exploiters themselves if they wish - and certainly many of them are too selfish and lazy to vote anyway.

 

So although there are still enough people who stick to a core belief of worker exploitation by capitalist bosses, i.e. the Corbyn supporters, to hunt as a pack and dominate local Labour politics, it's not at all clear to me that they are anything more than a very active pressure group and their support among the electorate at large is far from certain.  The underclass might instinctively support a left wing party if they could be motivated to vote but I see that as mission impossible.

 

Hence the pundits (and David Milliband and Neil Kinnock) saying that a Corbyn-led Labour Party is unelectable.  It's clinging to an obsolete USP and being very left wing, and the British electorate who can be bothered to vote have never shown much liking for extremes of any political flavour beyond currently demanding resolute action (of a more or less unspecified kind) to deal with immigration.

 

So I see the position of current labour MPs as between a rock and a hard place but in which they have nothing to lose by making a radical move because if they do nothing, Corbyn's gang will simply deselect them, using their domination of local Labour politics.  The possibility that they will dump the Labour Whip en masse is therefore far from merely hypothetical - and of course it is being actively discussed and predicted by the pundits as likely.  They are mostly centre-leftish people rather than left wingers, so having lost control of Labour they have to either form a completely new centre left party and/or associate themselves with the Liberals, who have clearly been making welcoming noises in the hope they will defect en masse.

 

I've never really understood what Liberalism is these days but it is certainly not extreme left wing in the Corbyn way, so maybe some new life in Liberal Democracy could arise from the ashes of the Labour Party.

 

As you say, long live democracy, warts and all.  And thank goodness the underclass are too self-focused and/or stupid to be a significant factor.

 

[starvin marvin]

StuartO - 2016-09-23 10:19 AM

starvin marvin - 2016-09-22 6:20 PM Its important for political parties to have a USP, if it loses that, in the eyes of voters it will be in trouble. All governments eventually run out of ideas. Some leaders have big question marks over their legacy and this taints the party. A point is generally reached where the public stop blaming the previous government and start blaming the current one.We will soon see if Corbyn is re-elected as leader and the size of the majority, whether existing Labour MP's resign the whip, form another party as a result etc etc is hypothetical, turkeys don't usually vote for Xmas. We don't have long to wait.All your suggestions are possible, but unlikely. The centre ground is not fixed in some way, its a flexible grouping that changes on all types of issues. Parties need to give them (the centre) a small number of issues that they will identify with and then generally support those policies. That is the trick, pull that off and you tend to be ok. You must not neglect them or take them for granted, just in the same way you must always be able to carry your core supporters with you. This can be extremely difficult as it depends on what is called "events". This is what makes politics, and political history so interesting, and we are clearly in interesting times, I'm sure you will agree, but no revolution....yet! Long live democracy, warts and all.

The Labour Party's USP (unique selling point?) as I understood it was closely associated with trade unionism and defending the working man against exploitation by "them", i.e. the capitalist owners.  There were enough working people who believed in the necessity of this perpetual fight against oppression to sustain a party based on that core belief.

 

But society has changed in a big way over the past hundred years and this core purpose and identity doesn't really fit the modern world in which the underclass are not workers with a work ethic at all, indeed there are plenty of ways in which they can be exploiters themselves if they wish - and certainly many of them are too selfish and lazy to vote anyway.

 

So although there are still enough people who stick to a core belief of worker exploitation by capitalist bosses, i.e. the Corbyn supporters, to hunt as a pack and dominate local Labour politics, it's not at all clear to me that they are anything more than a very active pressure group and their support among the electorate at large is far from certain.  The underclass might instinctively support a left wing party if they could be motivated to vote but I see that as mission impossible.

 

Hence the pundits (and David Milliband and Neil Kinnock) saying that a Corbyn-led Labour Party is unelectable.  It's clinging to an obsolete USP and being very left wing, and the British electorate who can be bothered to vote have never shown much liking for extremes of any political flavour beyond currently demanding resolute action (of a more or less unspecified kind) to deal with immigration.

 

So I see the position of current labour MPs as between a rock and a hard place but in which they have nothing to lose by making a radical move because if they do nothing, Corbyn's gang will simply deselect them, using their domination of local Labour politics.  The possibility that they will dump the Labour Whip en masse is therefore far from merely hypothetical - and of course it is being actively discussed and predicted by the pundits as likely.  They are mostly centre-leftish people rather than left wingers, so having lost control of Labour they have to either form a completely new centre left party and/or associate themselves with the Liberals, who have clearly been making welcoming noises in the hope they will defect en masse.

 

I've never really understood what Liberalism is these days but it is certainly not extreme left wing in the Corbyn way, so maybe some new life in Liberal Democracy could arise from the ashes of the Labour Party.

 

As you say, long live democracy, warts and all.  And thank goodness the underclass are too self-focused and/or stupid to be a significant factor.

Just a few comments to make on your assessment, then I'll call it a day on this thread, life's too short.The Labour party is IMO and experience (I was an active TU member for most of my working life) not focused enough on the TU movement, certainly it receives a considerable chunk of funding from them. It needs to become more attentive to the TU movement, and the debt of support, not just the funding it receives, Corbyn will I believe address this.I think its a bit rich when Kinnock comments on unelectability, didn't he have two unsuccessful goes? Fortunately with Millaband snr we will never know how unelectable he would have been.Reselection or deselection is not, believe me as easy as some people think, but it needs to happen to clear out the dead weights. We differ on a breakaway being formed, sure its possible but in my view unlikely, there is simply no room within the British political system of first past the post to make a difference. When Corbyn is re-elected there will be some movement back into the fold, but some have simply burnt their bridges and a cull is the best thing to happen. Some may jump into bed with the liberals for a slower political death. Eventually UKIP will whither on the vine, or split and be subsumed into the long established parties, perhaps over the next 2 or 3 elections. We'll see..Non voters are just that, they don't necessarily belong to any class, Labour need to get as many non registered "voters" signed up on the electoral register as a priority, this will not come from the Tories.I'll leave it there, enjoyed the conversation, have a good weekend, I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for a crushing victory. .

[Tracker]

It seems to me that the reality is a lot more simple than we are making it look.

 

The reality is that many of those who think it will make any difference whatsoever and can be bothered vote for whatever party looks like making them better off in the short term.

 

The hardcore voter will probably vote for their perceived favourite party and at any party that limits by way of policy those who are likely to vote for it does itself no favours in the eternal quest for votes.

 

What is really surprising is that the labour leadership can't see beyond the red mist and understand that but I guess that we should be grateful they are warning us of their intentions so that we can vote for someone else instead?

[StuartO]

Clearly you cannot see or choose not to believe that Labour under Corbyn will be unelectable - and I see that sort of view, which is clearly common among Corbyn supporters, as unrealistic.  It's all very well dismissing Niel Kinnock as a person with a losing history but I choose him and David Milliband as examples purely because their opinions were in the news recently.  Many senior Labour people are currently acknowledging in public that Labour is going to be unelectable for many years to come.

 

One factor in how disaffected Labour MPs will respond which I haven't mentioned is the loyaly/bullying factor.  Corbyn's opponent has already declared that he will stay with Labour come what may, but he won't accept any role in Corbyn's Shaddow Cabinet - which on the face of it reflects well on his commitment to being a lifelong Labour supporter.

 

This might be his only consideration but the prospect of the bullying which any Labour MP who defects would face is also a consideration.  The trades union movement has always used and/or condoned coercive tactics (such as calling people "scabs") if they dare to show any disloyalty and the risk of this sort of pressure would bear upon any Labour MP who might otherwise desert or defect.   Blatantly dirty tricks are another stock in trade for the left wing too.

 

I'm not suggesting that dirty political tricks are exclusively a left wing trait but they are certainly stock in trade behaviour for people who believe they are fighting a class war.  I simply don't believe, for example, that Corbyn will genuinely wipe the slate clean and start again with the Labour MPs in order to agree a working relationship with them - and neither, I suspect, will they.

 

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

starvin marvin - 2016-09-23 1:54 PM

 

Eventually UKIP will whither on the vine, or split and be subsumed into the long established parties, perhaps over the next 2 or 3 elections. We'll see..

 

.

 

Isn't that what they said about the SNP? ;-) .........

 

New Labour nor Old Labour has any appeal for me anymore.....and I did vote for Bliar once :$ ......

 

.....and when I hear Farron saying the Liberals occupy the centre ground, I wonder if the left are really on the same planet as me? *-) ..........

 

Just to add, I read today that more than half of the Labour voters who voted for BREXIT, have also said they'll not vote Labour again 8-) ..........

 

Corbyn has got his work cut out just to remain as the official opposition ;-) ......

 

 

[antony1969]

starvin marvin - 2016-09-23 1:54 PM

StuartO - 2016-09-23 10:19 AM

starvin marvin - 2016-09-22 6:20 PM Its important for political parties to have a USP, if it loses that, in the eyes of voters it will be in trouble. All governments eventually run out of ideas. Some leaders have big question marks over their legacy and this taints the party. A point is generally reached where the public stop blaming the previous government and start blaming the current one.We will soon see if Corbyn is re-elected as leader and the size of the majority, whether existing Labour MP's resign the whip, form another party as a result etc etc is hypothetical, turkeys don't usually vote for Xmas. We don't have long to wait.All your suggestions are possible, but unlikely. The centre ground is not fixed in some way, its a flexible grouping that changes on all types of issues. Parties need to give them (the centre) a small number of issues that they will identify with and then generally support those policies. That is the trick, pull that off and you tend to be ok. You must not neglect them or take them for granted, just in the same way you must always be able to carry your core supporters with you. This can be extremely difficult as it depends on what is called "events". This is what makes politics, and political history so interesting, and we are clearly in interesting times, I'm sure you will agree, but no revolution....yet! Long live democracy, warts and all.

The Labour Party's USP (unique selling point?) as I understood it was closely associated with trade unionism and defending the working man against exploitation by "them", i.e. the capitalist owners.  There were enough working people who believed in the necessity of this perpetual fight against oppression to sustain a party based on that core belief.

 

But society has changed in a big way over the past hundred years and this core purpose and identity doesn't really fit the modern world in which the underclass are not workers with a work ethic at all, indeed there are plenty of ways in which they can be exploiters themselves if they wish - and certainly many of them are too selfish and lazy to vote anyway.

 

So although there are still enough people who stick to a core belief of worker exploitation by capitalist bosses, i.e. the Corbyn supporters, to hunt as a pack and dominate local Labour politics, it's not at all clear to me that they are anything more than a very active pressure group and their support among the electorate at large is far from certain.  The underclass might instinctively support a left wing party if they could be motivated to vote but I see that as mission impossible.

 

Hence the pundits (and David Milliband and Neil Kinnock) saying that a Corbyn-led Labour Party is unelectable.  It's clinging to an obsolete USP and being very left wing, and the British electorate who can be bothered to vote have never shown much liking for extremes of any political flavour beyond currently demanding resolute action (of a more or less unspecified kind) to deal with immigration.

 

So I see the position of current labour MPs as between a rock and a hard place but in which they have nothing to lose by making a radical move because if they do nothing, Corbyn's gang will simply deselect them, using their domination of local Labour politics.  The possibility that they will dump the Labour Whip en masse is therefore far from merely hypothetical - and of course it is being actively discussed and predicted by the pundits as likely.  They are mostly centre-leftish people rather than left wingers, so having lost control of Labour they have to either form a completely new centre left party and/or associate themselves with the Liberals, who have clearly been making welcoming noises in the hope they will defect en masse.

 

I've never really understood what Liberalism is these days but it is certainly not extreme left wing in the Corbyn way, so maybe some new life in Liberal Democracy could arise from the ashes of the Labour Party.

 

As you say, long live democracy, warts and all.  And thank goodness the underclass are too self-focused and/or stupid to be a significant factor.

Just a few comments to make on your assessment, then I'll call it a day on this thread, life's too short.The Labour party is IMO and experience (I was an active TU member for most of my working life) not focused enough on the TU movement, certainly it receives a considerable chunk of funding from them. It needs to become more attentive to the TU movement, and the debt of support, not just the funding it receives, Corbyn will I believe address this.I think its a bit rich when Kinnock comments on unelectability, didn't he have two unsuccessful goes? Fortunately with Millaband snr we will never know how unelectable he would have been.Reselection or deselection is not, believe me as easy as some people think, but it needs to happen to clear out the dead weights. We differ on a breakaway being formed, sure its possible but in my view unlikely, there is simply no room within the British political system of first past the post to make a difference. When Corbyn is re-elected there will be some movement back into the fold, but some have simply burnt their bridges and a cull is the best thing to happen. Some may jump into bed with the liberals for a slower political death. Eventually UKIP will whither on the vine, or split and be subsumed into the long established parties, perhaps over the next 2 or 3 elections. We'll see..Non voters are just that, they don't necessarily belong to any class, Labour need to get as many non registered "voters" signed up on the electoral register as a priority, this will not come from the Tories.I'll leave it there, enjoyed the conversation, have a good weekend, I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for a crushing victory. .

You'll prolly never know just how many folk are fingers crossed hoping for that crushing victory too ... If he could replicate the amount of folk who hope he wins the leadership race in an election he'd defo be PM ... Come on Jezza

[Gwendolyn]

So much here.

 

In a kind of reply to various points made up-thread:

 

- Labour took the political platform from the Liberal Party in the first place.

 

- Disaffected Labour MPs left the Party to form the SDP, and look what happened there.

 

- With largely right wing press in the UK, anti Labour sentiments will be popular.

 

- "Wet hanky politics" is a term which is of the "loony left, tree hugging" variety. It does not ring wholly with truth. Some hard line Socialists would take an even harder line with egregious sob stories.

 

- Many left wingers are not 'loony' but committed people with a well thought out political philosophy based on principles to which they hold fast, in the face of derogatory opposition, as sometimes typified here.

 

- Society changed in last 100 years? Yes, of course. But if this is asserted in a context of a "decline" in support of the Labour Party, then History shows that the Labour Party has been in existence for little more that that time.

 

- Corbyn or Owen? It was a very hard call for me and for fellow travellers. Idealism versus pragmatism.

 

- I like to think that despite the observed, and documented, behaviour and voting patterns, I do not conform to the embryonic voter, according to: my age; my "social class" (whatever that may be); my gender; my religion. I am neither loony, nor a tree hugger, nor do I bear a wet hanky. I would ask for very high standards.

 

 

 

 

[StuartO]

Gwendolyn - 2016-09-23 11:55 PMSo much here.In a kind of reply to various points made up-thread:- Labour took the political platform from the Liberal Party in the first place.

 

So what?  Doesn't mean the Liberals could not horn in, although I doubt they would succeed this time.

 

- Disaffected Labour MPs left the Party to form the SDP, and look what happened there.

 

So what?  It didn't work last time but that doesn't mean a mass defection of some sort couldn't work this time does it?

 

With largely right wing press in the UK, anti Labour sentiments will be popular.

 

Funny how those who have strong or extreme left or right political views will see the press as hostile to them.

 

Many left wingers are not 'loony' but committed people with a well thought out political philosophy based on principles to which they hold fast, in the face of derogatory opposition, as sometimes typified here.

 

So some of them are looney then?

 

Society changed in last 100 years? Yes, of course. But if this is asserted in a context of a "decline" in support of the Labour Party, then History shows that the Labour Party has been in existence for little more that that time.

 

I did not associate the evolution in Society with a decline in the Labour Party (as I understand membership has gone up) I merely point out that the core beliefs have become obsolete and Labour has kicked itself into touch (again) in a big way as far as winning a general election is concerned.

 

Corbyn or Owen? It was a very hard call for me and for fellow travellers. Idealism versus pragmatism.

 

And idealism won for you?  So don't complain if Labour is rendered un-electable by Corbyn's confirmation as Leader! Owen struck me as articulate and technically very good; he would have led a very good and worthwhile challenge to the Government.

 

I do not conform to the embryonic voter, according to: my age; my "social class" (whatever that may be); my gender; my religion. I am neither loony, nor a tree hugger, nor do I bear a wet hanky. I would ask for very high standards.

 

But I think that lots of the people who are politically committed (on either wing) have a faith in their party's core beliefs which is very much like the faith of a religion, which is why they hold to those beliefs through thick or thin, even after experiencing things which should call their beliefs, or at least their party's application of them, into question. 

 

I doubt that you are either as open minded or as insightful as you think you are.  Voting for Corbyn to be a political leader for ideological reasons is cloud cuckoo land stuff.

 

[Gwendolyn]

It is a matter of historical tradition that the political stance of most of the UK national press is right wing.

 

Did I say I voted for Corbyn? And why does a vote for him have to be termed "cloud cuckoo land"? It belongs to the same kind of vocabulary as loony left, tree hugger and wet hanky. Why do such terms have to be used?

 

You call into question my integrity, and sincerity, when all I was doing was adding some of my thoughts. I did not claim to be insightful but I am open minded - you think not, so I see little point in further trying to "chat" on these matters. I find personal attacks very upsetting indeed. It can be hurtful. Why cannot chats be more objective?

 

[antony1969]

Those deluded wet Hanky types may want to ask why so many who will never vote for Corbyn are absolutely thrilled the freak has won ... If I want to step back to the early 80s I'll watch old Match of the Day stuff on youtube ... You fools have turned your party into a laughing stock , the division within the party is for all to see and lets see what the following months will bring ... If I'm HM Theresa May then I'd call an election this evening and increase my majority with zippydoodoo effort .... To be a Tory these days takes so little effort ... Long live Jezza he's a gift from the gods