The shape of the future?

[aandncaravan]

We were brought a Dethleffs yesterday which was a personal import into the UK only a few months ago that came out of the factory with a charging issue.

The Alternator charging problem wasn't discovered until the buyer was close to the Ferry terminal ready for the crossing back to the UK.

They decided to carry on and get Dethleffs to fix it in the UK.

 

According to the new owner, the Dethleffs Dealer took one look and scratched their head in disbelief at the apparent complication of the Power Controller/Charging system. So amazed were they that it ended up with a whole gang of technicians crowding around.

After several hours and no progress the owners left as they arrived.

 

It was then booked in with us, "Oh yes of course we can fix it, done hundreds of Schaudt equipped MH's. Often fix stuff even the Dealers can't", says I little bit more confident than I should have been.

 

When it arrived in North Wales I was completely stunned by what I saw, no wonder the Dethleffs Dealer struggled if it was new to them to.

Initially flabbergasted at the silliness of it all, by the time we fixed it this morning I was in love.

It is, I think, a ground breaking direction, that while it initially looks overly complex, actually breaks things out into separate entities. This should make changes simpler and more reliable. Fixes cheaper and quicker. Believe it or not, diagnostics should also be simpler.

 

The Schaudt Elektroblock was still there, an EBL 111, which we had advance information about as a new breed of Power Distribution unit that did not have the usual internal charger.

An idea we applaud as in the event of Charger issues, the most common problem with all Power Units whether they be Sargent, Calira, Nordelettronica, etc, you just swap the charger, not the entire box.

 

But this particular Dethleffs also had a new and very advanced HSM 01 Board and a Victron Energy 1600watt Inverter with built in 45 + amp mains charger

 

At first it just seemed hugely, unnecessarily complex, mixing different manufacturers kit that might lead to all sorts of incompatibilities.

I now think it is superb, for several reasons.

 

The quality of the installation was exceptional, well almost. Apart from missing a little wire that was the reason we got to see it.

 

Dethleffs are using tried and tested Electronics manufacturers but integrating them really well.

 

The HSM 01 is effectively a high current Cable board. Huge 500amp rated cables run from the Alternater/Starter battery to one side of the board. 400amp cables from/to the Habitation battery bank on the other side of the board.

From this HSM 01 'power board', run the usual cables you would see supplying power to an Elektroblock.

The Elektroblock then distributes and controls all the power around the Habitation area, exactly as the EBL 99 has done since 1999.

However, it no longer controls any charging or the displays.

 

The HSM01 provides the back bone for all charging. It does this by being able to take very heavy charging currents from the Alternator, Solar (up to 30amps) and Mains charging.

 

Because of the logical way the HSM 01 is configured, the mains charging can be from any charger unit.

In this case Dethleffs have chosen the excellent Victron Energy Muliplus Compact 1600.

 

Because the HSM 01 is designed specifically to integrate with any other manufacturers electronics by providing a very chunky power back bone, it doesn't actually matter what the charger is.

Additionally, for the first time in a Motorhome, it puts in place the proper infrastructure for an Inverter.

Another thing it does, is integrate any manufacturers B2B, simply and effectively.

 

In this case the Charger was also a battery backed UPS/Inverter. If the mains input power is interrupted, the Victron lit an alarm and then seamlessly, without the TV even flickering, picked up the 230v mains load.

 

What the Victron will also do is augment any additional 'mains input' if the Site EHU Bollard was not up to supplying the Full Monty.

For example if you were on a French 6amp Bollard but wanted to use the 12amp Microwave, the Victron would take from the habitation batteries the 'missing 8amps' just for the duration the appliance was run. All seamlessly.

 

It is also a massively powerful charger, yet has a maintenance mode of just 13.2v if you want to stay on EHU 365 days a year.

But the very clever thing about the maintenance mode is that it recognises that no power has been drawn for some time so periodically gives the battery a 12 hour 14.4v 'boost' charge to keep it healthy.

 

The HSM 01 provides all the Voltage/Current/charging info to the display unit. A Display/controller which would be familiar to last years Dethleffs owners.

 

 

While all the above might seem expensive, the advantage for Motorhome owners is that in the event of a failure of the charger, you just go to any Victron Energy supplier to buy a new one.

If you want to fit a B2B, it is a piece of cake so you don't pay exorbitant fitting costs. It 'guides' the fitters so they can't do it wrong or take hours.

 

As a small idea of the difference this infrastructure makes:

For the first time ever, we got a voltage reading at the habitation batteries that was exactly the same as that of the Starter battery when the engine was running. Even though the Habitation battery bank were at the very rear of the van. Not even 0.1 of a volt drop down such a long cable run with the Fridge also on 12v.

 

I have created a web page tonight : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/the-future.php where I will place a lot more detail and photos.

This web page will be expanded as we learn more.

 

 

Thank you to G and S Sykes for letting us play with their brand new and seriously excellent Motorhome!!

 

 

 

 

 

[KeithM]

Hi AandN

 

I am sure you know this, the Victron is programmable (different battery types, charging levels, voltage etc) via a free download from Victron (VEconfig) and a laptop with suitable connection cable also available.

 

Lots of settings to fine tune the set up.

 

ps. not got a motorhome yet but if/when I do and it has an electric/electronic problem, I know it will be a visit to Wales. :-D

[aandncaravan]

KeithM - 2016-10-15 11:22 AM

 

Hi AandN

 

I am sure you know this, the Victron is programmable (different battery types, charging levels, voltage etc) via a free download from Victron (VEconfig) and a laptop with suitable connection cable also available.

 

Lots of settings to fine tune the set up.

 

ps. not got a motorhome yet but if/when I do and it has an electric/electronic problem, I know it will be a visit to Wales. :-D

 

 

I didn't know that, I know almost nothing about this Victron Energy box. Did notice that the max Charge rate was alterable, I wondered how that was achieved.

We will be changing what we know about these, as that box looked impressive and we have heard they sell for just £600, which can't be right when a Sterling Inverter with the same spec is over £1,200?

.

I didn't go into it in any detail as the issue was with the Alternator charging which this box has no impact on.

 

Thank you for the endorsement and thank you for not commenting on my Arithmetic 6 + 8 = 12!!!

 

 

 

 

 

[Tracker]

Maybe I am a Ludite, maybe I am a tad cynical, but I don't see why I need all this electronic over complication and alleged progress and I yearn for the simpler more reliable times of yesteryear.

 

It's all very well when it works but a real pain in the van when it does not work and Dr Soddes Law states quite clearly that 'things will always fail to work at the most inconvenient time and location'.

 

Modern vans are good to drive but seem to me to be less well developed and made and less dependable that they were some 10 years ago.

 

Things like EGR, DPF, TPMS, dual mass flywheels, adblue, habitation electronics, flimsy (aka lightweight) furniture and furnishings, are real disincentives to me and I am glad in many ways not to be in the market for a modern van.

 

But I wish all those who do buy all the luck in the world!

[aandncaravan]

Tracker you are right extra sophistication can, sometimes, bring unreliability.

 

While this Dethleffs had one short wire missed out, on what has clearly been a major revamp and one of the first rolled out, not one other single issue has been experienced in 3 months of quite a lot of use.

 

That is nothing at all, not a screw come out, not a door that doesn't close properly, etc.

You will appreciate how remarkable that would be in a 'simple' motorhome purchased these days, let alone one that electronically locked the draws when the engine starts to stop them sliding open during travel!!!

 

You and I have both discussed before how the Japanese in the eighties introduced cars with sophisticated electronic Injection/Ignition when Ford could not even create a viable Carburettor with an Automatic choke??

 

Complex, if it is quality, doesn't have to mean mean unreliable. We have both seen 'simple' put together badly, that then just disintegrates.

 

This new, discrete element, approach should mean that for those who want complex it is easier, quicker and cheaper to fix.

 

I like Cars with manual windows, no Air Con, Manual locking, no Cruise Control, etc, but the Cars that go out of the showrooms the slowest are the lower spec Cars. People want high spec and complex.

 

So it looks like more complex will be the way forward for everything, whether we like it or not.

 

 

 

 

[Tracker]

There is no doubt that mechanical and electronic products can be made with reliability built in - modern aircraft for example.

 

We have been Japanese car converts since about 2009 and in that time neither car has ever needed attention outside of servicing requirements, compared to previous Euopean cars that were significantly less dependable.

 

As the old Honda ad used to say 'don't you just love it when everything just works'.

 

However reliability costs with quality components and I have severe reservations whether manufacturers of vehicles and components and converters have the desire or capability to create reliabilty at an affordable price when they can get away with shoddy.

 

I can't speak for Dethleffs but neither the track record or the customer service of most converters and of Sevel in recent years has not been wonderful and I don't see that attitude changing anytime soon.

[jak]

Very impressive Allan. Do you recall whether they are using the Victron batteries too. These appear to be just as impressive as the rest of their gear

[aandncaravan]

There were two 95Ah AGM batteries, not the ideal for the set-up installed and not Victron.

[KeithM]

I wonder if the Victron was set up for AGM. (rhetorical)

 

An aside, not in motor-home, I run a Victron 'combi' rated at 24v, 2kva,50amp that retails at about £1,200.

[aandncaravan]

Good question but one I can't answer as we didn't have time to go into it's workings.

 

The Alternator certainly wasn't AGM optimised as it was putting out only 14.4v.

 

 

Does your Victron Combi take up the extra load if there is a demand greater than the 240v coming in via the Site Bollard/Generator?

For example, if you had a 1,000 watt Generator supplying 5 amps and you switched on a Microwave that needed 10amps 'start up' load followed by a continuous 7 amps, would your Combi seamlessly supply the extra 240v power like the Victron Energy Multiplus Compact 1600 does?

 

If it does, what happens with charging in this scenario above, does it switch from 'charge mode' to 'power supply' then back to 'charging' automatically?

For example if you were running on the Generator to put 60amps into the batteries after an 'overnight' and you then activate the Microwave as above, does it automatically switch back to battery charging after the Microwave is switched off? Or does it require manual intervention?

 

Sorry, another question, the chargers can put out up to 60amps, or something like that, which could be up to 5 amps at 240v, potentially requiring more than a low power site Bollard can supply. So how does the charger react if, for example, if there is only 3amps available at the Bollard?

Do they adjust charge, say to charge at a lower 20amps/14v, or do they just shutdown altogether?

 

 

 

[Alanb]

aandncaravan - 2016-10-14 11:20 PM

 

"What the Victron will also do is augment any additional 'mains input' if the Site EHU Bollard was not up to supplying the Full Monty.

For example if you were on a French 6amp Bollard but wanted to use the 12amp Microwave, the Victron would take from the habitation batteries the 'missing 8amps' just for the duration the appliance was run. All seamlessly."

 

 

Quite irrespective of the arithmetic, I seem to be missing something here. How does the Victron Unit know the rating of the site bollard? I can only presume that this has to be entered for each site used.

 

[aandncaravan]

You specify on the remote control panel above the door the amount of power available at the EHU site bollard. Any demand higher than that is met by the Inverter, all seamlessly.

 

So yes if it is different to the usual 16A, you can select a lower option, but only if you wish. Or you can do as most do now and manage it manually, just letting it trip the Bollard if you miscalculate.

 

 

 

[Keith T]

Tracker - 2016-10-15 12:54 PM

 

Maybe I am a Ludite, maybe I am a tad cynical, but I don't see why I need all this electronic over complication and alleged progress and I yearn for the simpler more reliable times of yesteryear.

 

 

 

But I wish all those who do buy all the luck in the world!

 

I have to agree with your comments, and currently - having had motorhomes for some 25years- our 9 year old Burstner still has 'old fashioned' controls for all systems, with separate controls and readout for everything..

 

However we have a new Autotrail on order for delivery next March, and the control 'panel' seems to consist of almost a computer programme, on each button, and apparently can be set from a mobile phone....!!

 

It also has an external gas tank rather than the traditional bottles, so that's something else to cope with....

....interestingly, though they have gone back to a pre-fixed TV aerial of the old 'Omni directional' style, which they claim is better than the current directional ones, and talking to the guy on Avtex TV Stand, he seemed to confirm that Autotrail would only fit something which works well, as if you purchase the 'media' system (optional extra on some MHs) then its an Avtex system they use, and I would guess they will only approve a good aerial....

[Tracker]

Keith T - 2016-10-16 9:19 PM

talking to the guy on Avtex TV Stand, he seemed to confirm that Autotrail would only fit something which works well, as if you purchase the 'media' system (optional extra on some MHs) then its an Avtex system they use, and I would guess they will only approve a good aerial....

 

I wish you luck with that one too Keith, having had two Autotrails with the built in TV, albeit 2006 and 2009 - let's hope they make a better job of it now!

 

Whilst we found them compact and neat the problem was that from where we sat feet up on the bench seats they were too small and too far away with overly complicated menus using more than one remote control.

 

When I fitted an Avtex 12 v TV to the bulkhead using the Omni directional aerial then fitted by A/T it worked much better than the multi media setup in the cab and, deep joy, with only one remote!!

 

Progress - doncha just love it!

[Keith T]

Fortunately (perhaps), the model we are purchasing the v-line 610SE, is not one where the Media pack can be added.......and in any case, I would not have wanted it....!I I prefer my own detachable Satnav...!

We did purchase the new AVTEX TV (from their own stand at the show) which should cover out UK and continental needs, and given the relatively small dimensions of the vehicle, we shall be viewing less than 2m from the screen, so feel the 18.5" screen is adequate..

It will be interesting to see the efficiency of the aerial...

[Tracker]

We used to find that if the Freeview signal was good enough then you sometimes didn't even need to raise or swing the aerial because the Avtex was better able to translate the received signal to a decent picture.

Let's hope that still applies.,

I too prefer a separate sat nav and our TomTom sat atop the speedo binacle dirctly inline with, but just below, my straight ahead vision so a quick glance was all it took plus it was easy to reprogramme and it worked very well like that for years and tens of thousands of miles plus it was quick and easy to remove and hide from view when the need arose.

I too like simple things that just work!

Good luck!

[aandncaravan]

Sorry I have written my original post badly, as usual.

 

This new philosophy is actually simpler and easier to maintain, so should also be more reliable.

It just looks more complex when you first see it because all of the main functions have been broken down into individual boxes/cabinets.

A Sargent EC328 has many functions inside the one box, mains charger, power distribution, power control, display unit control, Fridge operation, Alternator charging, etc.

If any one 'function', like mains charger fails, it requires the whole unit to be removed and sent away for repair. Or a completely new box fitted when maybe only 3 Diodes in one 'function' requires sorting.

 

Once the EC328 is removed, the Motorhome is pretty much unusable until it returns from repair : no Alternator charge, no Fridge, no lights, no Water pump, etc. .

 

In the new philosophy each function is broken down into individual elements/boxes linked by a central wiring highway. Initially the view is of a lot more boxes, that could be from multi manufacturers, so looked daunting when I first saw it.

 

There doesn't need to be anything you don't already have, it is just more visible and accessible.

The boxes can also be from any manufacturer, if you wish you can swap a Schaudt mains charger for a Sargent, etc.

That is part of the design to be able to swap to either have best of Breed or lowest cost.

If the mains charger breaks, and it's the most common failure point, you need remove only that box for repair/replacement, so the Motorhome will usually still be viable.

 

 

The architecture is such that then adding extra functionality is simple and in harmony with what is there already.

 

Thirty years ago a Motorhome had a charger, a few relays, wires and fuses. As things have progressed it seemed logical and neat to keep putting it all in one cabinet. But the 'Box' now contains so much it has become a monster.

Someone has considered it time for a rethink.

This new philosophy isn't about adding functionality or complexity, but making the existing functionality more accessible.

 

 

I think it would be a major step forward for Motorhome owners if Sargent came up with their own version of it for UK built Motorhomes.

 

I have rewritten our web page to try and make it a little more understandable with photos and spec sheets : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/the-future.php

Any feedback appreciated.