Bumped van. Keeping you all informed of insurance progress and repair!

[chris]

On Saturday a lorry drove towards us just over the centre line and caused us to pull tight to side where we were pushed into a road barrier. We couldn't take details as we all know that you can't just stop a van anywhere and we couldn't look back quick enough to get details.

 

Decided that the damage from the passengers door, along van and rear wheel arch would have to be repaired so phoned Safeguard insurance Monday night to report damage. A friendly, easily understood lady informed me of the process saying I only needed one quote which was only the labour charges and I could use any garage or dealer of my choice.

 

Contacted my original dealer we bought the van new from in April. He said he would look at it so contacted Safeguard back again and they then told me that I would be put straight through to Alliance Cornhill, the broker. This was immediate and they said they would take information on the phone and that we do not need to fill any claims form in. Gave all details on the phone and concluded that Safeguard would be liable as no details of other vehicle. We would have to pay the first £150 so we said we may or may not claim depending on cost of repair. We pay protected no claims payment and I was assured that this would not affect any future dealings so was reasured by that. We were given a reference number and told to contact them when we had a "labour costings quote" They do not need cost of parts.

 

An engineer may or may not then inspect the vehicle but all coerrespondance would then be sent direct to dealer/workshop.

 

We have booked the van in for an inspection this week so will keep you all informed as I know we have all said we only know if a company is good when you have to make that claim. So watch this space.

 

So far the friendly simple way of making a claim via Safeguard has been very good so will wait and see. The van is only 8 months old so we can't keep looking at a scraped side without feeling sick. I anticipate problems will probably occur with the manufacturer if we need any new parts. The bodywork is polyester outer skin with ABS plastic lower mouldings. Don't know what that entails so will have to see what needs doing!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Wish us luck anyway.

 

 

 

Chris

[peterjl]

Hi

 

There, but for the grace of god, go many of us.

 

Just rememember - no one was hurt + thats what insurance is for.

 

Good luck.

 

Peter

[flicka]

Good luck Chris.

Hope you don't encounter any difficulties and it doesn't keep you off the road for long.

Flicka

[michele]

Ok Done said same thing hubby reversed into mound of what he though was grass smashed all the back in what a mess ...Safegard fantastic can not fault them . no forms, man turned up looked at damage sent a man picked it up all repaired all returned .................Comment overall 10 out of 10 ......................

 

hope this gives you confidence .

 

Wouldn't swop them so far ...............get our vote (lol) (lol) (lol)

[chris]

Thanks Michelle,

That seems reasuring. Have always had praise for safeguard so fingers crossed.

Chris

[michele]

Chris ,

told before so don't want to bore people as I often do . Little one took a big fit epilepsy on the way to take my daughter to pony camp for the week . She said dad fred's having a fit . He looked back missed the turning (little country lane ) reversed bang .shifted the whole back end . All our fault (HIS REALLY) haha..

 

Honestly no problems it went through Alliance Cornhill a lovely guy called peter ? who used to sell Pilot at the caravan show came (probably sold them else where as well. Brand new all done .we had no worries I don't think you will have either . please keep us informed . safegard read this . they often look in .

 

Get My vote ......Be happy have nice Crimbo

[carebear]

Hi Chris,

Sorry to read this on your van, as long as you are both ok thats all that matters.

At the end of the day, yes it is a costly item, your pride and joy, but it is a tin box.

Hope your friend at the dealers can sort it soon for you, hope you have nothing planned, and need the van during this horrendous weather.

Ours has been stripped and gone in to hibernation, and we are now looking forward to the warmer climes.

Hope you will get things moving quickly for you.

Have a good Christmas, say hi to your better half. (lol)

[chris]

Hi all

Hi Ceri (will email you later)

 

 

The cost for repairing the van will be £2003. Wow! Definately going through insurance now. Luckily all can be repaired as if we had to wait for parts from Chausson in France it would be next summer. Van can be repaired during xmas week as long as Safeguard agree and an engineer can inspect it.

 

Unfortunately lines are down in Safeguards Birmingham office (unless its their xmas party!) so will have to ring Monday.

My dealer has faxed a quote to them this afternoon so have to wait till Monday now

 

 

[DavidRon]

'We pay protected no claims payment and I was assured that this would not affect any future dealings'

 

Hi Chris

Just something you may need to be aware of.

I was insured by Safeguard in 2002 and had to make a claim which was dealt with very efficiently by Safeguard & Cornhill. Although it wasn't my fault I couldn't identify the vehicle that hit me.

Even though I had protected NCB my renewal premium went up by 35%.

When I questioned this with Safeguard I was told that my premium had been 'loaded' because the claim 'Had been for £2000'

David

[Brian Kirby]

Unless there was an error somewhere, or the £2,000 limit was stated up front, that seems to me to be sneaky! 

In effect they weren't offering a protected no claims discount as it would ordinarily be understood. 

The loading should not have been applied unless there was a record of claims, and in any case most protected NCD schemes say the premium will remain unaffected, provided there is no more than one claim within a defined period.

Hope you protested and if not satisfied, changed insurer!

[Mike Chapman]

Hello Brian,

 

I can see the point of your posting but unfortunately the NCD protection protects only the No Claims Discount and not the renewal premium. This is controlled by a specific clause which states that the NCD will be protected if there are not more than a certain number of claims over a specified time period (most often two in five years).

 

The premium can be adjusted or the policy cancelled or not renewed for many reasons such as change of employment, driver prosecutions, modifications to vehicle or plain and simple fraudulent activity by the insured. This is quite legal and generally misunderstood. As you say its a bit sneaky especially when the insured is not in anyway responsible for the accident/damage.

 

When I insured through Safeguard this was clearly explained to me and I have found all my dealings with them to be excellent.

 

Regards,

 

Mike.

[chris]

That is one thing that I was concerned about too when making the claim but I hope we do not get clobbered on renewal. We have been with Safeguard 4 to 5 years now so hope that we are classed as good customers. Received a letter from Safeguard today saying we do not have to pay the outstanding balance on our policy immediately following this claim. They are happy with our paperwork so we carry on with our direct debit.

 

If I am reading this right they would normally want you to pay your years policy in full when making a claim if paying monthly??

 

I must say I have never been informed that our NCD would be affected as you were Mike. The reason I stuck with Safeguard was that all the quotes I received were much the same price but not as comprehensive as Safeguard. Glad I stayed now because of this bump! Better the devil you know they say.

 

Will have to wait till next October to find out as we have just renewed again and we arrange travel insurance through them too.

 

 

[Mike Chapman]

chris - 2006-12-16 4:08 PM

 

 

I must say I have never been informed that our NCD would be affected as you were Mike. The reason I stuck with Safeguard was that all the quotes I received were much the same price but not as comprehensive as Safeguard. Glad I stayed now because of this bump! Better the devil you know they say.

 

 

Hello Chris,

 

It was not the NCD that would be affected but the renewal premium, the NCD was protected unless the no.claims/time was exceeded.

 

Agree with you on Safeguard, found them very knowledgeable very helpful and the best quote for my van considering the add ons like full AA cover.

 

Hope this is all resolved to your satisfaction but I suppose it would have been far better for it not to have happened.

 

Regards and Happy Christmas,

 

Mike.

[DavidRon]

Hi Brian.

Just to make it clear this was the only claim I'd made in 40 years of driving.

I've no convictions (not even for parking) And there was no limit to the claim

The accident happened on the German Autobahn when an overtaking car flicked up a lorry wheelchock which went through one of the side windows. The car didn't stop. (It was in 2000 not 2002 as I previously said)

I had no complaint about the way Safeguard handled the claim, but my renewal premium was loaded only because of the claim. If I could have identified the other driver so that Cornhill could have claimed of him then my premium may not have been loaded. I was given to believe that this type of loading is a common policy among insurers.

I did protest but in the end renewed with another company.

 

Chris it will be interesting to know what happens when you get your renewal.

 

David

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Mike Chapman - 2006-12-16 1:51 PM Hello Brian, I can see the point of your posting but unfortunately the NCD protection protects only the No Claims Discount and not the renewal premium. This is controlled by a specific clause which states that the NCD will be protected if there are not more than a certain number of claims over a specified time period (most often two in five years). The premium can be adjusted or the policy cancelled or not renewed for many reasons such as change of employment, driver prosecutions, modifications to vehicle or plain and simple fraudulent activity by the insured. This is quite legal and generally misunderstood. As you say its a bit sneaky especially when the insured is not in anyway responsible for the accident/damage. When I insured through Safeguard this was clearly explained to me and I have found all my dealings with them to be excellent. Regards, Mike.

Mike

What you say is well understood. 

However, a no claims discount is just that, a discount offered to drivers who have not made claims.  In exchange for an additional premium most insurers offer the option to "protect" this discount.  On any normal interpretation the meaning is surely clear: the basis of your renewal, and your premium calculation, will be as before and your no claims discount will have been preserved.  If your policy is loaded but your discound maintained the effect is the same as if the company had reneiged on its offer to maintain the discount.  In short it has moved the goalposts on the insured.

So far as I know, if you do not have a protected discount and you have an accident, you loose some, or all, of the discount.  The premium you pay will therefore be increased, and you have to re-commence earning the discount.  Fortunately I have limited experience of this, but I am unaware that your premium would be loaded as well.  In effect, that would be double jeopardy.

This might be reasonable if you had, say, two or more accidents within a previous period, maybe five years.  That might indicate that your driving had become erratic and the company could, reasonably, review the risk you pose.  However, one accident does not indicate a significant alteration to a driver's risk rating. 

Attaching this penalty to the cost of repair is, frankly, ludicrous.  The value of the vehicle is required on the proposal, and so is the fact that it is a motorhome.  Motorhomes are fragile vehicles and repairs are almost always expensive.  Insurers who insure them know this and should set premiums accordingly.  I think what we are seeing here is the consequence of an insurer setting competitive premiums to get business, but not liking the reality of the business they have won and resorting to weasel words to escape their obligations.

Sack them!

[fred grant]

brian, a premium is not fixed, it is a moveable feast. If you have a bump and claim, no matter who is at fault, you can expect a higher premium at renewal. Something to do with risk. the protected no claim bonus is just that - a protected bonus. Fred and Alice

[colin]

Co-op never raised my premium when I had claim against me couple of years ago. This was first time a claim had been made against me.

[DavidRon]

:$ Sorry folks I'm making a pigs ear of this quoting business.

I'll try again later after I've had a drink

[Brian Kirby]

fred grant - 2006-12-16 7:47 PM brian, a premium is not fixed, it is a moveable feast. If you have a bump and claim, no matter who is at fault, you can expect a higher premium at renewal. Something to do with risk. the protected no claim bonus is just that - a protected bonus. Fred and Alice

Fred

I think there may be a misunderstanding.  I have not said that the premium is fixed.  Premiums vary for many reasons, mainly becaus costs rise and premiums rise to keep station with them.

However, a given driver's risk is measured (generally) against his address, his age, and his driving record.  If you have earned a no claims discount, and you then have a single accident, and you cannot recover all of your costs from the other driver, you will loose some/all of your no claims discount.  Your renewal cost will increase, but your base premium should remain unaltered apart from general cost related increase.

However, in exchange for an additional premium, you can protect that no claims discount.  In this case, under the circumstances as above, whereas the insurer would normally recover some of his costs through the resulting increase in your renewal cost, he gets this back via the added premiums you have been paying for the protected no claims discount policy.

Having accepted the protected NCD premium, if the insurer maintains the discount, but then increases the base premium so as to to negate the benefit if the retained discount, what have you actually paid for?

I had a minor accident some years back, with protected NCD, and my base premium, and the NCD, both remained unaltered, as they should have, on renewal.  My premium increased, but only by the amount of general, inflation related, premium increase for the year.

That, in my opinion is what protected NCD means and is how it should work.  Resorting to premium loadings following a claim is, I think, in simple terms, sharp practice, and firms doing this should be avoided, because others, so far as I know, don't do so and thus offer a fairer product.

[Supertractorman]

Hi,

 

Sorry to hear of your bump.

Another problem in the small print is that you should notify any other Insurers of say your car that you have had an accident, as that is always one of the questions asked on proposal forms " Any accidents in last 5 years ", now whether that affects other Protected No Claims I do not know.

 

David

[Mel E]

Brian,

 

I'm afraid you can protest all you like about this, and wish it were otherwise, but it isn't.

 

Protected NCD ONLY protects the discount you get from the total premium (though the calculation is usually a bit more complicated than a straight discount).

 

It does not protect the premium itself. If you have an accident that causes your own insurer substantial loss, then the next year's premium will be loaded, though you will still get the same discount. This is completely normal practice in the motor insurance industry and things like 'I've been claims free for 40 years', 'I've never had a conviction', and so on have no impact whatsoever.

 

It's why I gave up on the extra premium for protected NCD some time ago. What you get for what you pay isn't worth a candle. With most insurers (and it will be in your contract or policy), you do not lose the whole of your NCD and go back to 0% if you have an unrecoverable loss, but usually step back 2 discount steps. Often it's from 60% to 40% or therabouts. So what are you paying the protection fee for?

[Mike Chapman]

Hello Mel,

 

I was just about to post pretty much the same reply to Brian when I saw your posting.

 

To clarify the matter a bit further. Each year your premium is recalculated according to actuarial calculations (risk and premium) and in effect, at renewal, forms a new contract between the insurer and insured. If anything changes the risk to the insurer then the premium could be adjusted up or down accordingly. If for instance there has been a high incidence of claims in a particular post code area then this could lead to increased premiums for all insured residing in that area as a base point no matter what their claims history or NCD.

 

The point at issue though seems to be whether the insurer is morally correct in increasing the premium to offset the loss to the insurer from protected NCD. Unfortunately in these cases the legal argument often overshadows the moral argument.

 

At the end of the day if one does not like the new premium then another company can be tried.

 

Regards,

 

Mike.

[Bill]

There's another wrinkle to all this: an organisation called MIAFTR [Motor Insurance Anti-Fraud & Theft Register], which is owned by ABI [Assoc of British Insurers).

 

My daughter was recently rear-ended while driving my old (E-reg) Citroen BX. Damage was minimal - the plastic bumper was boken, but the body panelling underneath was untouched.

 

Clearly the other driver was at fault, but I elected not to claim - at this stage anyway. Nevertheless, her insurers have decided to declare my car an insurance write-off to MIAFTR, on the grounds that a new bumper would cost more than their assessment of what the car is worth.

 

I'm still looking into all this, but it seems that it is going to be difficult or impossible to renew the insurance when the present policy expires, which will mean that a perfectly good car will have to be scrapped. I have also so far hit a brick wall with all attempts to have this entry removed.

 

I stress that all this has been done, not by my insurers, but by the other driver's insurers.

 

Consider that many motorhomes are old but low mileage. If you are involved in some trivial fender-bender what is to prevent an unscrupulous insurer from declaring it a write-off?

 

[Brian Kirby]

Bill - 2006-12-21 11:34 AM There's another wrinkle to all this: an organisation called MIAFTR [Motor Insurance Anti-Fraud & Theft Register], which is owned by ABI [Assoc of British Insurers). My daughter was recently rear-ended while driving my old (E-reg) Citroen BX. Damage was minimal - the plastic bumper was boken, but the body panelling underneath was untouched. Clearly the other driver was at fault, but I elected not to claim - at this stage anyway. Nevertheless, her insurers have decided to declare my car an insurance write-off to MIAFTR, on the grounds that a new bumper would cost more than their assessment of what the car is worth. I'm still looking into all this, but it seems that it is going to be difficult or impossible to renew the insurance when the present policy expires, which will mean that a perfectly good car will have to be scrapped. I have also so far hit a brick wall with all attempts to have this entry removed. I stress that all this has been done, not by my insurers, but by the other driver's insurers. Consider that many motorhomes are old but low mileage. If you are involved in some trivial fender-bender what is to prevent an unscrupulous insurer from declaring it a write-off?

To Mel and Mike, my thanks, and to Mike my apologies.  I had drawn the conclusion, based upon my own experience that the premium should not be "loaded" because of a single accident.  Seems I was just lucky with my, admittedly minor, bump.

On the basis of what you say either the "protected" policies are not worth paying for, or one needs to establish the operative rules, and then do some sums, before deciding whether to protect or not.

After all, I assume the same premium loading would be applied with, or without, protected NCD.  To calculate the effect of a claim on the renewal premium, therefore, one presumably needs to establish the additional premium for protecting the NCD, for how long the premium loading would continue in place (3/5 years?) and the NCD setback if one has an accident.

That sounds like a bundle of laughs!  I wonder how many insurers would come clean of that?

To Bill, I am a bit flabbergasted.  I once made a claim, a long time ago, when the cost of repair was, as it turned out, little more than the cost of the lost NCD in the first year.  However, being green, I was indignant that the car had been damaged while parked, by person or persons unknown, so had filled in a claim form, submitted it, and the claim had been met.  When the renewal invitation arrived, and I had queried why the premium had shot up, I was told about the "No claim, not no blame" bit.  I therefore said that if I had realised that at the time I would have paid for the repair out of my own pocket.  I was advised that I could still do this by reimbursing the insurer his costs and, if I did so, the claim would be anulled and the premium would revert to its previous level - plus inflation etc.  So I did.  Assuming this is still possible, I cannot understand how what you report can be the last word.  However, have you notified your insurer of the accident?

Perhaps you need to formally advise someone that you have paid the cost of repairs your self, or merely complete a statement that you do not intend pursuing the matter. 

I assume this has happened because the other driver has notified his company of the accident, and they have left it on their books as an open matter, and are seeking to limit their losses should you subsequently decide to claim.

[chris]

Ok

 

Latest is that the assessors are calling at my dealers tomorrow to hopefully give the go ahead for repair over Christmas.

 

Chris