John52 Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 In the days when they used to hang pickpockets there were pickpockets picking the pockets of people in the crowd watching the hangings. My guess is they stole out of necessity and didn't expect to get caught. (The guy being hanged was probably innocent, framed by a bounty hunter. The authorities didn't seem to bother much about whether their victim was guilty, their idea of public execution was to serve as a warning to others) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 StuartO - 2016-12-30 1:36 PMThe liberal idea is that rehabilitation is so important part of putting people in prison (to help them avoid reoffending on release) that it must have a very high priority. I've never really bought that idea not least because if you are only sending people to prison as a last resort and for the minimum period because of the costs, the scope for genuine rehabilitation is lost because imprisonment is too little and too late to achieve anything other than token benefit. I've heard it said that by the time we send people to prison for the first time their criminal inclination is firmly established and almost all will re-offend because their personal die is cast as well as because (as ex-prisoners) they face extra challenges going straight. There are some successful rehabilitation programmes, such as the one involving training prisoners as scaffolders while still inside and (cricially) also reserving a job for them immediately on release, but I don't believe rehabilitation is successful overall. I do believe the imprisonment has useful deterent effect on many prisoners because very few are likely to want to go back inside but unless imprisonment is prompt and for long enough to be effective, the dterent value is undermined. I believe capital punishment also had a powerful deterent effect too - prisons went very quiet on the mornings when the prisoners knew that an imate was actually due to be executed. (But I don't believe in capital punishment for other reasons.) Overall I think we spoil the effect of imprisonment by administering to late and too little to have the necessary impact. I would abandon any attempt at rehabilitation during service of a prison sentence and make the life as tough as possible. Why for example does feeding prisoners get five times the budget of feeding hospital patients? Why do prisoners get entertained in prison? Why do prisoners automatically get their sentence halved or reduced even further? What they are sentenced to they should serve in full. But I would however provide, for all prisoners on completion of their sentence, a compulsory residential rehabilitation course which teaches them what they need to know to re-enter society and behave - and give them a realsitic chance of getting a job and affordable accommodation.In my view the prospect of rehabilitation must never be the sole or even most important arbiter of what sentence is appropriate. The needs of victims and potential future victims are way more important than the individual needs of offenders who often have shown no thought for such considerations. I'm not too swayed by the fact that some criminals have had a hard life. Why they should feel justified on spreading their misfortune to others when others who often have had a more difficult start in life have not turned to crime is beyond me. By all means let's make attempts at rehabilitating those who have committed crime but there comes a point when prison is the only answer even though a prison sentence has little chance of securing the good behaviour of many on release. I believe you may be a little optimistic that compulsory residential courses would secure a better chance of rehabilitation on the part of most recidivist ex-prisoners. It is hard for the law abiding to get inside the mind of someone who has done something so bad and often that they deserved to go to prison. There are of course one-off offenders who will never offend again but recidivists are an entirely different ball game. They don't think like you and I and have never gained any sense of obligation to anyone else accept themselves. I think we just have to continue to lock them up whenever they commit crimes that are serious enough to warrant imprisonment. Anything less they do not understand because sadly they have never been shown compassion and don't know what it feels like to care about the consequences of their actions on others. That mindset is almost impossible to alter once they have reached adulthood. There may be some capable of reform but I don't believe there are many serving sentences in our gaols at present that fall into that category. Unless and until someone from the Howard League or a similar body demonstrates that this is the case by providing much more detailed information on the characteristics of the people who are presently serving sentences in our prison population I don't have a problem with the size of it. Veronica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 In which case, isn't the whole theory of sentencing wrong? The idea that the punishment should fit the crime? One transgression might be excused, but a second appearance would, surely, justify a full life term if there is no prospect of rehabilitation? Seems a bit of a counsel of despair, to me. I agree with Stuart that the justice system is too slow in dealing with crime, though not all escape remand. But I don't agree that the prison regimes are too comfortable: surely the recent instances of riots show what happens when those comforts are denied? If one combines the ideas of longer sentences and harsher regimes, one will increase the prison population and at the same time the warder/prisoner ratios necessary to maintain order. There is a considerable cost burden from that. I don't think it is appropriate to draw comparisons with a period when pick-pockets were hanged. For someone who was destitute at that time there was no safety net of any kind. Those who stole food were often transported, but others continued to steal food. Society is, on the whole, kinder to the destitute now, so I don't think there is any excuse for turning to crime to survive in life, except perhaps for those with mental illness, or those of extremely low intelligence unable to penetrate the welfare system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Brian Kirby - 2016-12-30 7:06 PM In which case, isn't the whole theory of sentencing wrong? The idea that the punishment should fit the crime? One transgression might be excused, but a second appearance would, surely, justify a full life term if there is no prospect of rehabilitation? Seems a bit of a counsel of despair, to me. I agree with Stuart that the justice system is too slow in dealing with crime, though not all escape remand. But I don't agree that the prison regimes are too comfortable: surely the recent instances of riots show what happens when those comforts are denied? If one combines the ideas of longer sentences and harsher regimes, one will increase the prison population and at the same time the warder/prisoner ratios necessary to maintain order. There is a considerable cost burden from that. I don't think it is appropriate to draw comparisons with a period when pick-pockets were hanged. For someone who was destitute at that time there was no safety net of any kind. Those who stole food were often transported, but others continued to steal food. Society is, on the whole, kinder to the destitute now, so I don't think there is any excuse for turning to crime to survive in life, except perhaps for those with mental illness, or those of extremely low intelligence unable to penetrate the welfare system. A full life term is never appropriate for all but the most dangerous criminals. a prison sentence should always reflect the current nature and seriousness of the crime. Credit in terms of the length of any sentence can be given where someone has little or no previous criminal history as opposed to upping the ante based on previous convictions. I am not proposing that sentences be increased so as to reflect the number or nature of previous offences to the extent that an offender guilty of many minor offences ends up serving life in prison. We are kinder to the destitute and that is to be welcomed. Prisons need to be humane and conditions in some of our Victorian prisons are unacceptable both for inmates and prison officers. I believe that there are some inmates suffering from mental health problems that make it inhumane for the to be contained in the a prison environment. There are however procedures for prisoner transfers to mental health institutions and governers need to be on top of this. I don't think for a moment that our prisons are too comfortable. I visited Brixton amd Wormwood Scrubs some years ago now and they were pretty horrible. We need more modern jails that preserve basic human dignity that have facilities for education and learning that give inmates the best chance of survival and of becoming law-abiding once they are on the outside. In the end however it is down to the individual prisoner to decide what they want to do when they are released. We have to have a system that gives them some hope that they will have a chance not to reoffend but at the same time we have to be realistic as to what they understand to be in their best interests or within their capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 hi, It is circumstances rather than crime that lots of the people we have sleeping rough in our cities find themselves living the way they do . I would rather see lots of money spent in this area as well as homes for the elderly and infirmed than update the t.v's in our prisons to flat screen,so to speak. I believe somewhat in the fact that if prison served its purpose then why do so many reoffend, couldn't be they cannot cope with homelesnsess and the like so take a short cut back to cosy could it ? cheers derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Violet1956 - 2016-12-30 6:14 PM prison population I don't have a problem with the size of it. Veronica Good post. But why does Britain's prison population have to be the biggest percentage in Western Europe? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/26/neil-woods-undercover-cop-who-abandoned-the-war-on-drugs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Brian Kirby - 2016-12-30 7:06 PM extremely low intelligence unable to penetrate the welfare system. Not necesarily as the welfare system has become incredibly bewildering and complex. Rising housing costs and falling budgets has developed a system that rejects as many people as possible. Homelessness and Hospital Admissions for malbnutrition are at a record high. People have been found 'fit for work' whilst lying in a coma in the final days of a terminal illness. Those who are brought to public attention will be granted benefits. But those who can be shunted out of sight obviously are being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 derek pringle - 2016-12-31 9:21 AM as well as homes for the elderly and infirmed than update the t.v's in our prisons to flat screen derek Shortage of homes is due to planning constraints, not money to build. And why only homes for the elderly. What about everyone else? Prison TVs cost the taxpayer nothing as prisoners rent them out of their earnings. The right to rent a TV is reward for good behaviour. How else do you motivate them to behave well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 I look at some of these car chases on TV and think if prison is so soft why are they so keen to get away? If prison was any harder perhaps they would be firing guns to get away, like they do in America? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 John52 - 2016-12-31 12:31 PM Brian Kirby - 2016-12-30 7:06 PM extremely low intelligence unable to penetrate the welfare system. Not necesarily as the welfare system has become incredibly bewildering and complex. Rising housing costs and falling budgets has developed a system that rejects as many people as possible. Homelessness and Hospital Admissions for malnutrition are at a record high. People have been found 'fit for work' whilst lying in a coma in the final days of a terminal illness. Those who are brought to public attention will be granted benefits. But those who can be shunted out of sight obviously are being. Bib happened to a friend of mine who received notification his DLA was to be stopped as in the opinion of the Social he was "fit to resume work". He's had a stroke, had a pacemaker fitted due to heart problems, and battling cancer. Oh.........and not to mention the fact he'd actually been retired for eight years at the time! *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 John52 - 2016-12-31 12:24 PM Violet1956 - 2016-12-30 6:14 PM prison population I don't have a problem with the size of it. Veronica Good post. But why does Britain's prison population have to be the biggest percentage in Western Europe? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/26/neil-woods-undercover-cop-who-abandoned-the-war-on-drugs Interesting article thanks. I think I would need to read his book to be totally convinced that his arguments are sound. As for our prison population compared with Western European countries I haven't got the foggiest but I wouldn't assume that they are better in terms of rehabilitating offenders or in reducing crime unless provided with some convincing data. I bet there are theories out there why their prison populations are lower. I know the Howard League, an organisation I respect, has been making adverse comparisons between our penal system and other Western European countries for a long time. I guess their website would be the best place to trawl for any research they have done. Happy New Year to you John. I've found the serious discussions we have had on here very thought provoking. I hope that 2017 proves better than what has been a pretty awful 2016 all round. Veronica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Violet1956 - 2016-12-31 2:03 PM John52 - 2016-12-31 12:24 PM Violet1956 - 2016-12-30 6:14 PM prison population I don't have a problem with the size of it. Veronica Good post. But why does Britain's prison population have to be the biggest percentage in Western Europe? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/26/neil-woods-undercover-cop-who-abandoned-the-war-on-drugs Interesting article thanks. I think I would need to read his book to be totally convinced that his arguments are sound. As for our prison population compared with Western European countries I haven't got the foggiest but I wouldn't assume that they are better in terms of rehabilitating offenders or in reducing crime unless provided with some convincing data. I bet there are theories out there why their prison populations are lower. I know the Howard League, an organisation I respect, has been making adverse comparisons between our penal system and other Western European countries for a long time. I guess their website would be the best place to trawl for any research they have done. Happy New Year to you John. I've found the serious discussions we have had on here very thought provoking. I hope that 2017 proves better than what has been a pretty awful 2016 all round. Veronica Well of course the countries with lower prison populations are more egalitarian with less of a gap between rich and poor. But you can't point that out on here without being acused of being a loony lefty. I've enjoyed our discussions too Veronica. All the Best for the New Year B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 John52 - 2016-12-31 12:31 PM Brian Kirby - 2016-12-30 7:06 PM extremely low intelligence unable to penetrate the welfare system. Not necesarily as the welfare system has become incredibly bewildering and complex. Rising housing costs and falling budgets has developed a system that rejects as many people as possible. Homelessness and Hospital Admissions for malbnutrition are at a record high. People have been found 'fit for work' whilst lying in a coma in the final days of a terminal illness. Those who are brought to public attention will be granted benefits. But those who can be shunted out of sight obviously are being. I think your snip was a little unkind, John. :-) What I actually said was "so I don't think there is any excuse for turning to crime to survive in life, except perhaps for those with mental illness, or those of extremely low intelligence unable to penetrate the welfare system." I accept that the welfare system has become overly complicated: that was in part my point. If an individual is not of sufficient intelligence to penetrate the complexities of the welfare system, and has become desperate, I can well understand that individual turning to petty crime. But, in relationship to the overall prison population, they must, surely, be a minority? It seems to me unlikely that the majority of those in prison can be genuine hardship cases with low intelligence. If I'm right, they will have had other choices, so their presence in prison will be, to a large extent, their own faults. The challenge is to get them out, and keep them out, by changing their behaviour. So, I do just wonder if remission is too subtle, and an increasing tariff for repeated offending might give a clearer incentive. The problem with remission is that they get a sentence, and then get time off for no more than keeping their nose clean. Not quite the same, psychologically, as knowing that you will serve the sentence you are handed in full, and the next one will be longer if you come back. I suspect that remission has a lot more to do with trying to make prisoners more docile while in prison (threat of lost remission for being naughty), than with incentivising better behaviour out of prison, which is what I think most of us are probably looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 A bit off topic but what always concerns me are the gross miscarriages of justice which, despite all the advances in forensics etc, still occur today. There are a number out there is you want to Google but one i find particularly disturbing is that of Victor Nealon. Convicted for attempted rape of a woman outside a nightclub in 1997, Nealon was given a discretionary life sentence. Nealon had never been to the nightclub. The womans attacker was also said to have a Scottish accent. Nealon is Irish! That alone should have set alarm bells ringing but it didn't and the case turned into an absolute travesty of "justice" resulting in Nealon spending 17 years banged up for a crime he never committed. He served 10 years above the minimum seven because of his refusal to admit to the crime. His conviction was finally quashed in 2013 after DNA proved it was from an "unknown male"......and NOT Nealon. Even though now a free man his misery still hasn't ended. THREE times he's attempted to apply for compensation yet each time it's been turned down because he has to "prove beyond reasonable doubt that he did not commit the crime", but no forensic scientist will say that the DNA is totally conclusive! At the time of his release he left prison with just £46 and nowhere to stay. http://thejusticegap.com/2014/04/case-victor-nealon-17-wasted-years/ https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/16/wrongly-jailed-victor-nealon-free-streets-postman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 John52 - 2016-12-31 3:55 PM Violet1956 - 2016-12-31 2:03 PM John52 - 2016-12-31 12:24 PM Violet1956 - 2016-12-30 6:14 PM prison population I don't have a problem with the size of it. Veronica Good post. But why does Britain's prison population have to be the biggest percentage in Western Europe? https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/26/neil-woods-undercover-cop-who-abandoned-the-war-on-drugs Interesting article thanks. I think I would need to read his book to be totally convinced that his arguments are sound. As for our prison population compared with Western European countries I haven't got the foggiest but I wouldn't assume that they are better in terms of rehabilitating offenders or in reducing crime unless provided with some convincing data. I bet there are theories out there why their prison populations are lower. I know the Howard League, an organisation I respect, has been making adverse comparisons between our penal system and other Western European countries for a long time. I guess their website would be the best place to trawl for any research they have done. Happy New Year to you John. I've found the serious discussions we have had on here very thought provoking. I hope that 2017 proves better than what has been a pretty awful 2016 all round. Veronica Well of course the countries with lower prison populations are more egalitarian with less of a gap between rich and poor. But you can't point that out on here without being acused of being a loony lefty. I've enjoyed our discussions too Veronica. All the Best for the New Year B-) I see Santa bought you another pair of rose tinted spec's for Christmas John ;-) ......... I assume the egalitarian countries you allude to are members of the EU? ........perhaps we could start with the thousands of EU prisoners, that alone would ease the situation in "our"prisons *-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Perhaps the prison service should be renamed the ICS....... Islamic Conversion Service :-| ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 John52 - 2016-12-31 12:38 PM derek pringle - 2016-12-31 9:21 AM as well as homes for the elderly and infirmed than update the t.v's in our prisons to flat screen derek Shortage of homes is due to planning constraints, not money to build. And why only homes for the elderly. What about everyone else? Prison TVs cost the taxpayer nothing as prisoners rent them out of their earnings. The right to rent a TV is reward for good behaviour. How else do you motivate them to behave well? hi Jon52 My mistake in not being clear enough, I meant specific nursing and sheltered homes instead of the old being kept in hospital. Should be govt. run at reasonable rates.The amount ringfenced for increased spend on prisons would go a long way. all the best derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 hi all, I wonder what the actual number of true British prisoners we have against prisoners who are not actually born here. Considering the potential total cost of keeping somebody in jail it must be quite costly to fund the 'non doms'. Also if you believed the characature type of Poles/Rumanians etc for instance you may be forgiven for thinking that if they are found guilty of a crime in their country the punishment is to give them the fare to the uk. Cynical I know but we are paying the costs. cheers derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Bulletguy - 2016-12-31 9:10 PM At the time of his release he left prison with just £46 and nowhere to stay. http://thejusticegap.com/2014/04/case-victor-nealon-17-wasted-years/ https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/16/wrongly-jailed-victor-nealon-free-streets-postman At least he got out alive, which is more than can be said for bacon butty boy 8-) .......... I bet our prison bosses are praying to Allah that he died from natural causes :-| ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 derek pringle - 2017-01-01 9:16 AM hi Jon52 My mistake in not being clear enough, I meant specific nursing and sheltered homes instead of the old being kept in hospital. Should be govt. run at reasonable rates. I think it was until Thatcher privatised it? Difficult to know where to make cuts in prison spending whilst they keep increasing the prison population. Most of the money goes on security to avoid the political embarrasement of a prison escape. Open prisons are far cheaper, with far lower repeat offenders, but politically unacceptable to the Daily Mail Brigade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Bulletguy - 2016-12-31 9:10 PM At the time of his release he left prison with just £46 and nowhere to stay. Well of course there are plenty like that who haven't committed a crime. So if the Government gives all ex cons an alternative to going back to crime they will be accused of treating prisoners better than victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 John52 - 2017-01-01 3:08 PM..................Open prisons are far cheaper, with far lower repeat offenders, but politically unacceptable to the Daily Mail Brigade. I think you'll find that is because only the lowest risk prisoners, generally with no record of violence, are sent to open prisons. Seems a bit like saying "all pillar boxes are red, therefore all red objects are pillar boxes". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Brian Kirby - 2017-01-01 3:20 PM only the lowest risk prisoners, generally with no record of violence, are sent to open prisons. . True. But I get the impression the Daily Mail Brigade still wouldn't have them in open prisons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 John52 - 2017-01-01 5:22 PM Brian Kirby - 2017-01-01 3:20 PM only the lowest risk prisoners, generally with no record of violence, are sent to open prisons. . True. But I get the impression the Daily Mail Brigade still wouldn't have them in open prisons. Open prison is a classic oxymoron *-) ........and judging by the latest releases online by prisoners using their "illegal" I phones, main stream prisons seem to be pretty cushy to, with unlimited access to hard drugs etc 8-) ......... Its no wonder they're so keen to get back in :-| ........ Maybe that's why the reoffending rates are so high.......Its better than getting a job eh? >:-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 derek pringle - 2017-01-01 9:30 AM hi all, I wonder what the actual number of true British prisoners we have against prisoners who are not actually born here. Considering the potential total cost of keeping somebody in jail it must be quite costly to fund the 'non doms'. Derek It's less than 10%. http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN04334 Download the pdf file for full information linked at page bottom, it's very detailed. It's a House of Commons Briefing so provides factual statistics as opposed to speculative comments based on certain individuals political agendas. pelmetman - 2017-01-01 11:56 AM Bulletguy - 2016-12-31 9:10 PM At the time of his release he left prison with just £46 and nowhere to stay. http://thejusticegap.com/2014/04/case-victor-nealon-17-wasted-years/ https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/16/wrongly-jailed-victor-nealon-free-streets-postman At least he got out alive, which is more than can be said for bacon butty boy 8-) .......... I bet our prison bosses are praying to Allah that he died from natural causes :-| ........... Is that really the best you can come up with? It's obvious you couldn't even bother to read the linked article preferring to shoehorn xenophobic quips in instead where it doesn't even bear any relevance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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