Re-map. Is it worth it?

[ColinM50]

Reading this months comic, oops I mean MMM, there's a report that remapping diesel engines is a jolly good thing - improves power and fuel consumption. I was waiting to see if it reduces global warming and is kind to the dolphins etc, but they didn't go quite that far.

 

So the questions is has anyone done it and is it the best thing since sliced bread as the article implies?

 

We've got a 2015 Ducato based M/H with 2 litre 130bhp engine and would be interested to find out if this is worth the investment.

 

TIA

 

Colin

[Colin Leake]

I have two friends who have done so with mixed results. One blew the turbo up and the other did the engine. It's fine in my opinion in a car where one would only be using the extra performance for a short time but a heavy blunt object like a motorhome slogging up a long hill is an altogether different kettle of fish. Even if small gains can be made in my opinion it's not worth the risk. Any claimed gains in fuel consumption even if they did materialise would require a truly vast mileage to pay back the cost of the work. Leave well alone and enjoy what you've got.

[StuartO]

I did it on my Hymer B684 on a 2005 Fiat 2.8 JTD shortly after it was new and it's been superb and given no problems at all.

 

I planned to tow a big trailer and felt I needed the extra torque, which I got.  The extra power and torque were immediately apparent as soon as I drove it after the remapping.

 

Never really tried to assess what it did for fuel consumption but I suspect not very much.

 

No regrets, no hesitation in recommeding getting it done as long as you use a reputable firm.

 

[Agaric]

BT remap their vans, they even put a sticker on the back.

[hallii]

If manufacturers could map their vehicles so as to improve performance and fuel economy without affecting reliability I think they would do it.

 

I have owned a mapped motorhome without problems but I have read of various engine issues on remapped vehicles.

 

Do you feel lucky........well do ya?

 

H

 

 

[RogerC]

The thinking behind remapping is that the manuf' have to map in such a way as to meet the required emissions standards.  As a motorcycle owner for decades and having had three of them remapped (and on a dyno before and after) I can say that there has been a particular anomaly on all three pre mapping.  This 'blip' appears in all cases to be an 'emissions' related consideration.  After mapping the last bike (Triumph 675 for track use) I was asked if I wanted one of three levels of remap/tune.  Level 1 meant improved torque and bhp (by around 20 bhp over standard)with no change in maintenance schedule.   Levels 2 & 3 required more frequent servicing.  Naturally I took level 1.  Having owned the three for some time after mapping and regally thrashed the nuts off them I can honestly say not one gave me any trouble or cause for alarm.  So what I'm saying is there is a case for remapping.  The 'legal OEM map' is not necessarily the best in terms of consumption or performance but .....as they say...you pays your money and takes your choice....because there will always be the 'I know someone whose motor was better.....I know someone whose motor exploded' sides of the argument, although I have to admit to have never read a first hand account of a blown motor from the owner.

[joe66]

hallii - 2017-01-20 6:15 PM

 

If manufacturers could map their vehicles so as to improve performance and fuel economy without affecting reliability I think they would do it.

 

I have owned a mapped motorhome without problems but I have read of various engine issues on remapped vehicles.

 

Do you feel lucky........well do ya?

 

H

 

When I went to me mechanic to ask about remaping that is exactly what he said. If the engine performance could be improved the manufacturers would have done it as better figures helps sales.

 

[Colin Leake]

RogerC - 2017-01-20 8:20 PM

 

The thinking behind remapping is that the manuf' have to map in such a way as to meet the required emissions standards.  As a motorcycle owner for decades and having had three of them remapped (and on a dyno before and after) I can say that there has been a particular anomaly on all three pre mapping.  This 'blip' appears in all cases to be an 'emissions' related consideration.  After mapping the last bike (Triumph 675 for track use) I was asked if I wanted one of three levels of remap/tune.  Level 1 meant improved torque and bhp (by around 20 bhp over standard)with no change in maintenance schedule.   Levels 2 & 3 required more frequent servicing.  Naturally I took level 1.  Having owned the three for some time after mapping and regally thrashed the nuts off them I can honestly say not one gave me any trouble or cause for alarm.  So what I'm saying is there is a case for remapping.  The 'legal OEM map' is not necessarily the best in terms of consumption or performance but .....as they say...you pays your money and takes your choice....because there will always be the 'I know someone whose motor was better.....I know someone whose motor exploded' sides of the argument, although I have to admit to have never read a first hand account of a blown motor from the owner.

 

I can assure you both the cases I quoted are genuine. In the case of the one with the blown turbo a group of us were returning from a model car race in Aberdeen. And had agreed to meet up at a service station on the way home. We passed him stopped at the side of the road broken down and stopped to see what the matter was. He told us Green Flag was on the way. It was only later we learned it was a blown turbo. I must admit he was a mad bugger who used to push his motorhome to the limit when returning from distant meetings.

[flicka]

ColinM50 - 2017-01-20 3:31 PM

 

Reading this months comic, oops I mean MMM, there's a report that remapping diesel engines is a jolly good thing - improves power and fuel consumption. I was waiting to see if it reduces global warming and is kind to the dolphins etc, but they didn't go quite that far.

 

So the questions is has anyone done it and is it the best thing since sliced bread as the article implies?

 

We've got a 2015 Ducato based M/H with 2 litre 130bhp engine and would be interested to find out if this is worth the investment.

 

TIA

 

Colin

 

In your own case Colin a 2015 model should still be under Manufacturer's Warranty,. So my advise is NO it's not worth it to risk loosing the Warranty cover.

Post warranty it's a question of doing your research, there have been numerous threads on the subject on this forum, search "Remap" (without the quotes) should bring up a good selection of them.

[Charles]

The modern vans have plenty of power. If you turn up a turbocharger and inject more fuel, economy WILL plummet. Leave well alone.

[Rayjsj]

Colin Leake - 2017-01-20 5:20 PM

 

I have two friends who have done so with mixed results. One blew the turbo up and the other did the engine. It's fine in my opinion in a car where one would only be using the extra performance for a short time but a heavy blunt object like a motorhome slogging up a long hill is an altogether different kettle of fish. Even if small gains can be made in my opinion it's not worth the risk. Any claimed gains in fuel consumption even if they did materialise would require a truly vast mileage to pay back the cost of the work. Leave well alone and enjoy what you've got.

 

I disagree...a bit, the latest euro 6 engines are so emasculated with emission gizmos that an independant eye cast over the ECU to get the engine to do exactly what the vehicles OWNER wants it to do, rather than what some commitee has decreed in Brussels, to me has to be a good thing.

Autotrail are now fitting a 2litre instead of a 2.3 130bhp engine as standard on their PVCs, now that is crying out to be chipped .

Chips away !

[John52]

Agaric - 2017-01-20 5:47 PM

 

BT remap their vans, they even put a sticker on the back.

 

That might be to reduce performance because heavy footed drivers don't pay the bills and care about fuel consumption or repair costs?

Wheras if its your own van you can make your own choice about how heavy footed you want to be?

[StuartO]

John52 - 2017-01-21 12:31 PM

Agaric - 2017-01-20 5:47 PMBT remap their vans, they even put a sticker on the back.

That might be to reduce performance because heavy footed drivers don't pay the bills and care about fuel consumption or repair costs?Wheras if its your own van you can make your own choice about how heavy footed you want to be?

Makes sense to me.  Some people drive hard and therefore risk breaking something as well as using a lot of fuel, most MH owners are more mature and will avoid doing so.

 

My Fiat chassis unit was a more powerful version in standard setup than the RHD equivalent and it had some bigger or better components (such as a bigger Turbo I suppose, I can't really remember the details) to make this possible.  By remapping they still got the same sort of increase in power and torque as they did with RHD examples so mine was still extra powerful and extra torquey.

 

Of course you can't drive an Integrated Hymer like a racing car anyway because the cornering and brakes are not up to it, but I could certainly pull away with the trailer on the back more easily and needed to change gear on hills far less frequently.

 

As I understood it Fiat, as other engine makers, produce a standard engine block for their range of engines and apart from occassionally fitting a bigger turbo or somesuch, they contrive different mapping configurations to build variations on the range by means of different engine mapping.  They are constrained in what mapping they choose by the various regulations which governments impose.

 

Aftermarket re-mapping is not constrained in the same way, hence can usually gain power and torque - but perhaps by poorer fuel consumption or emissions.  For example my MH always blasted out black smoke during acceleration after changing up once it had been remapped - but apart from that, and the conspicuous extra power and torque, there was nothing to show for re-mapping at all.  (Curiously it has stopped doing that since my new stainless exhaust system was fitted!)

 

As someone has said, you pays your money and you takes your choice.  I'm very glad that I had re-mapping done.  Pity that TB Turbo is no more.

 

[Agaric]

So this is what BT does nothing to with heavy feet.

 

https://viezu.com/economy-tuning

[RogerC]

Colin Leake - 2017-01-20 11:08 PM

RogerC - 2017-01-20 8:20 PMThe thinking behind remapping is that the manuf' have to map in such a way as to meet the required emissions standards.  As a motorcycle owner for decades and having had three of them remapped (and on a dyno before and after) I can say that there has been a particular anomaly on all three pre mapping.  This 'blip' appears in all cases to be an 'emissions' related consideration.  After mapping the last bike (Triumph 675 for track use) I was asked if I wanted one of three levels of remap/tune.  Level 1 meant improved torque and bhp (by around 20 bhp over standard)with no change in maintenance schedule.   Levels 2 & 3 required more frequent servicing.  Naturally I took level 1.  Having owned the three for some time after mapping and regally thrashed the nuts off them I can honestly say not one gave me any trouble or cause for alarm.  So what I'm saying is there is a case for remapping.  The 'legal OEM map' is not necessarily the best in terms of consumption or performance but .....as they say...you pays your money and takes your choice....because there will always be the 'I know someone whose motor was better.....I know someone whose motor exploded' sides of the argument, although I have to admit to have never read a first hand account of a blown motor from the owner.

I can assure you both the cases I quoted are genuine. In the case of the one with the blown turbo a group of us were returning from a model car race in Aberdeen. And had agreed to meet up at a service station on the way home. We passed him stopped at the side of the road broken down and stopped to see what the matter was. He told us Green Flag was on the way. It was only later we learned it was a blown turbo. I must admit he was a mad bugger who used to push his motorhome to the limit when returning from distant meetings.

My comment was to convey that the evidence is nearly always anecdotal as yours is because it didn't happen to you.  Therefore whilst you have knowledge of the blown turbo you don't know if 'chipping' was responsible or contributory which was the thrust of my comment.  To qualify this I have had a turbo let go without warning....throwing oily smoke out behind me on the M4....not nice as it was a massive cloud.  The van had not been chipped, had a service history and was not being hammered......it was simply a turbo failure.

With regard to the comments about manufacturers mapping with regard to the efficiency/performance/capabilities of the vehicle please read the following extract from Auto Express:

Computer algorithms running behind the scenes while you’re driving a modern car affect all sorts of parameters, such as ignition timing, air/fuel ratio and turbocharging boost pressure. New car engineers typically set these parameters at the factory to meet product marketing targets such as power level, fuel economy and emissions, and that means new cars are rarely fully optimised for ultimate performance.

So if you want greater performance and pulling power from your car, or alternatively if you’re seeking mpg improvements, the first place to look is the little black box under the bonnet.

 

In addition vehicles have to meet the European Emissions Standards  as set out in EU Legislation.  Therefore with all these considerations to be met it is little wonder that the mapping is more concerned with meeting the legislative limits as opposed to ensuring the engine performs as it was designed to do.

[John52]

Agaric - 2017-01-21 1:32 PM

 

So this is what BT does nothing to with heavy feet.

 

https://viezu.com/economy-tuning

 

Sounds like they are reducing performance to increase economy. Something the driver could do with a light right foot instead of a re map. But when he isn't paying the bills he wouldn't bother.

[Agaric]

John52 - 2017-01-21 1:57 PM

 

Agaric - 2017-01-21 1:32 PM

 

So this is what BT does nothing to with heavy feet.

 

https://viezu.com/economy-tuning

 

Sounds like they are reducing performance to increase economy. Something the driver could do with a light right foot instead of a re map. But when he isn't paying the bills he wouldn't bother.

 

I think you should have another read as you clearly did not read it all.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

The current range of motors available for Euro 6 Ducatos is described here

 

https://www.fiatcamper.com/en/product/engines

 

though I’m sure the 180 MULTIJET picture is of the superseded 3.0litre powerplant rather than the latest 2.3litre 180.

 

The 2.0litre motor was introduced for Euro 5 Ducatos in mid-2011 with just a 5-speed manual transmission (rather than the current 6-speed) and was never fitted to RHD Ducatos that instead had a 110bhp variant of the 2.3litre motor. My understanding is that the 2.0litre motor is a ‘commercialised’ version of the powerplant that’s fitted to other Fiat Group vehicles and (in cars) can deliver up to 180bhp. For Euro 5 LHD Ducatos the 2.0litre motor could be specified for vans and ‘chassis', and some motorhome converters offered it as the base-unit for quite large coachbuilt designs. For Euro 6 Ducatos the 2.0litre motor is only available in vans.

 

Colin asked originally whether having his 2015 Swift Lifestyle 686 remapped would be worth the investment. The 686 design is quite large with considerable frontal area and, although the 130bhp of its 2.3litre motor should be adequate, some extra power/torque should be useful. It really depends on how much the ‘investment’ is and why Colin feels there might be a need. As Flicka advises, if Colin decides that remapping would be beneficial, it would be wise to wait until the motorhome is out of warranty before having this done.

[aandncaravan]

Quite a good thread on remapping that discussed not just the merits of remaps but about driving style and how that might affect a remap here : http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/anyone-had-their-2-3-fiat-mutipoint-remapped/41131/

 

We used to carry out remaps. Whether they are good for you will depend on your driving style, use and the reason you want the remap.

Generally you won't get extra Power and economy, because if you use the power the economy advantage is nullified.

 

What our a remap did was improve engine efficiency, primarily by increasing Turbo boost throughout the rev range. This gave more power, which if it wasn't used, gave improved fuel consumption.

 

The customer that gave us the best feedback, and good reviews, was a Motorbike Racer who took his Motorbikes all around Europe in the Garage of his Motorhome. He did a lot of miles each year.

 

He often went into Europe via Luxembourg (apparently cheap Diesel) where he filled up.

 

His MH was about 50 miles short of reaching his target fuel station in Luxembourg so he came to us to improve the efficiency to enable him to make it over the border.

 

On his first trip after the remap, he reached the Luxembourg fuel station with a Gallon or so in hand, he estimated about 60miles driving left. So an improvement of over 100 miles a tank.

 

That continued all through that year and into the next when he swapped the vehicle for a later model.

He said he really noticed the extra power, and he found he had to concentrate not to let the speed creep up as this would affect the new found fuel consumption. If he was willing to sacrifice the new found fuel economy he was able to drive faster, more comfortably, with less gear changing.

 

We would advise that if you have a remap, you should think of the service intervals as absolute maximums. If you drive a lot in traffic or at 'high speed' you should shorten them. Just as you should anyway without a remap.

Oil quality/cleanliness is absolutely key to engine and Turbo life.

 

We would also suggest, as we did in the previous post noted above, that you pay extra attention not to labour the engine in a high gear.

 

If you look after an engine and drive it within it's limits there is no reason an engine should suffer from a remap. Remember the exact same engine block already comes in a variety of reliable power outputs from the factory.

Even the manufacturers offer remaps.

 

When 2.0 litre engines can reliably give 180bhp, a remapped 2.3 with 160bhp will not exactly be stressed!!

 

 

But be careful who does it, strongly suggest you don't have it done at a Show.

 

Reliable remaps are now part of UK culture on Motorbikes, Vans, Cars and Motorhomes.

 

A remap should not invalidate the Warranty. If a major issue occurs the Garage has to prove that the remap was responsible, pretty much impossible to do. Just as it almost impossible to say that a failed engine was the result of a remap.

If anyone tells you a remap has caused an engine to fail, ask for the exact technical reasons. I would love to know how/why the remap caused it and what was the proof, because most of the engine builders I know, and we were one, can only guess at the cause of most engine failures?

 

 

As even the most extreme remap is unlikely to turn an Autoquest into a Ferrari, I think an Insurer would have a pretty hard time convincing a Court that a remap was a 'contributory factor' in any incident.

 

 

We have heard that Vauxhall will soon be offering a remap on the Astra to reactivate it's emissions software that normally gets 'switched off' once it reaches normal temperature! :D

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

aandncaravan - 2017-01-21 10:45 PM

 

A remap should not invalidate the Warranty...

 

 

A remap by a ‘3rd party’ will always have the potential to affect a vehicle’s warranty. This is made very clear here

 

http://www.hyperchips.co.uk/blog/will-a-car-remap-affect-my-warranty

 

Remapping by the vehicle’s manufacturer should be fine - to address a recognised problem (eg. Ducato juddering or Transit stalling) or to modify the vehicle’s emissions-control software - but the type of remapping Colin refers to in his original posting above will be considered by Fiat to be an unauthorised modification and, as such, will conflict with his Ducato’s warranty terms and conditions. This warning is given in the MMM article (Page 186).

[aandncaravan]

Derek, I accept that. But a conflict with the Terms and Conditions does not mean they can refuse a Warranty claim.

 

In past years Motor manufacturers have tried to get out of warranty claims because non standard parts had been used. Several test cases followed setting a precedent that unless the modification was the direct cause of the failure it was regarded as irrelevant.

Engine failure is usually a catastrophic event, very difficult to determine exactly what the original source of the failure was as there is so much consequential damage.

 

For example if an engine was damaged by Oil starvation, almost every moving metal surface would suffer damage including the Oil pump.

It would be hard to determine if the Oil pump failed to deliver enough Oil around the engine or if the Owner had failed to top up the Oil and the pump suffered as a result of having no Oil to pump.

There would be so much damage inside the engine any post mortem would be pretty difficult.

 

Because the things altered by a remap, fuelling, combustion, etc may also be impacted by Coolant/Oil level/temperature, fuel delivery, Injector quality, Pump pressure, ECU poor connections, faulty sensors, etc. it would be a brave engineer who was prepared to stand up in court and pin the blame solely on the remap.

 

In the case of the Mercedes engine failure mentioned above, the Dealer/manufacturer would need to show that the remap was the direct cause. £14,000 is a huge bill suggesting massive, catastrophic damage to the engine so how were they able to pin it on the remap? I don't understand this case.

 

 

Warranty exclusions have, by law, got to be reasonable and fair. Trying to refuse a Warranty claim on a Wheel bearing because the owners local Garage has used Ferodo Brake shoes is unlikely to stand up to any scrutiny

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

aandncaravan - 2017-01-22 2:16 PM

 

Derek, I accept that. But a conflict with the Terms and Conditions does not mean they can refuse a Warranty claim...

 

 

No it doesn’t, but the likelihood of a motor manufacturer resisting an under-warranty claim if there’s the opportunity to blame an unauthorised modification (like a 3rd-party remap) is worth bearing in mind for anyone contemplating having remapping done.

[gordonaldson]

Why not just fit a plug and play device/black box, so that when someone says it knackers your engine you simply remove it. Then when someone says it helps economy fit it back on. Then vice versa onwards. Surprised these black boxes haven't been mentioned but is it the case they can be seen in the engine compartment..

[spospe]

Derek Uzzell - 2017-01-22 6:23 PM

 

aandncaravan - 2017-01-22 2:16 PM

 

Derek, I accept that. But a conflict with the Terms and Conditions does not mean they can refuse a Warranty claim...

 

 

No it doesn’t, but the likelihood of a motor manufacturer resisting an under-warranty claim if there’s the opportunity to blame an unauthorised modification (like a 3rd-party remap) is worth bearing in mind for anyone contemplating having remapping done.

 

This is also true under the terms of an extended (post manufacturers) warranty. We had such a warranty provided by Warranty Direct and they were quite clear that any modifications had to be cleared with them first.

 

[burstnerbill]

I had a TDI tuning box fitted to my 2012 ducato 2.3 (150bhp) after seeing it featured in MMM two years ago, mainly because I was going to the French alps, it has about five settings to give oomph or economy I left it mid way and got noticeably more power and an extra 3 mpg. I have now had the same box refitted to a 2014 3 litre ducato and not noticed any difference in performance which to be fair was already very good but I am getting 2 to 3 mpg extra, so maybe if it lasts about five years it will have paid for itself