Jan V Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 aandncaravan - 2017-02-10 2:03 PM Before you consider LiFePo4 Lithium technology which won't work with your chargers, and probably not the Alternator, have a look at the Victron Energy Long Life 4,500 cycle Gel batteries? Lot's of talk about Lithium technology having very long life, but the Victron Energy Gel batteries match that life, probably better in the real World, without any of the hassle associated with Lifepo4. Accidently let the Lithiums go flat and they are toast, with major cost implications. Let the Victron get down to 95% and you will still have a usable battery, but shorter life and most definitely not such a costly experience. Every Lithium battery launched in the last 15 years has had amazing claims for cycle life, none of which have been lived up to, in my experience. I would like to see some real evidence that LiFePo4 is any different. LiFePo4 (Lithium) Since my 320 Ah GEL´s are less than one year I am not doing anything yet. I am trying to do the charging up and close to the 100% mark to slow down aging of my batteries. My theory is that this will prevent the sulfat build up, and increase battery lifespan. But, at one point in the future I need to spend money for new batteries. Preparing for this moment, I try to pick up what other users experienced. At this time I have not found any LiFePo4 users expressing any negative experience. The thumbs up for; LiFePo4 lower the weight by at least 50%. LiFePo4 need less physical space LiFePo4 increase the available Ah (from 50% to 100% of battery capacity) LiFePo4 speed up the charging time. I have read there is two kind of batteries; Cyclic and Prismatic (???) (I dont know if this is the correct names...) To my understanding it is the method of production that differ. I have read that the Prismatic is the best one, and the most expensive. Better because these batteries can take the vibration in a motorhome. My self I have been concerned about the LiFePo4 need for accurate charge voltage. To my understanding the charger need to spot on the voltage. If not all kind of bad stuff start evolving. Like when Boeing had their first 787 Dreamliner in the air. Very soon planes all over was grounded because of batteries. Samsung still have not recovered after their phones blew up in smoke. Maybe not to be compared but still makes me keep fresh batteries in motorhome smoke detector. My self I just want to be sure what I am doing before spending a lot of money on a battery that potentially can bring down a brand new series of airliner. Maybe not the same kind of Lithium technology, but still..... The "talk" about LiFePo4 batteries is that they all contain a BMS (Battery Management System). According to to vendors and customers "the BMS will take care of all my concerns" "No worries" is the answer you get if you ask the ones that already converted for LiFePo4. According to the "talk"; - BMS will take whatever voltage, and covert this to whatever the LiFePo4 wants. - BMS will cut off the charging if voltage over the high limit. - BMS will cut off the charging if battery is fully charged - BMS will make sure I win the lottery (lol) Still I am concerned *-) Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan V Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 aandncaravan - 2017-02-10 2:03 PM The space age.... Charge Boosters or DC / DC Chargers As a result of the demand for lower emissions the motorhome chassis might be delivered with a alternator (generator) that will lower the charge if emissions are increasing. And thats probably for a good cause. Makes our environment happy. In the other end users get more battery problems. While driving, we dont get enough charge current to fill up our batteries. I am trying to optimize all my sources. My original Schaudt 36 A chargers (2x18A) probably doing fine with my EBL213. In addition to the 230 VAC chargers I do have the solar MPPT and Efoy fuelcell connected directly to my batteries. I am able to generate more than I use. I can follow the current flow in and out of my batteries on my Votronic LCD Battery Computer. Not as a surprise, the Votronic tell me that it would be nice to get more when driving. As a result of my observations I am considering what to do with my alternator. From an earlier project I do have my DC/DC charger system, Ctek Dual 250S + Smartpass. I had those units installed in my earlier motorhome, as well as the Votronic LCD Battery computer. At that time I did fill up my batteries while driving in half the time (compared to driving without those units). On the marked there is a few charge boosters; Boosters (or Battery chargers) that will take whatever comes from the alternator and double the charge. Seems to be I get more Amps going into my battery. How do them boosters work? I believe the boosters increase the charge voltage, and as a result of this the Amps will increase. Is this how it works? Original set up; Lets say; At one point the ECU (Engine Control Unit) tell the Alternator; Watts delivered will be P=U*I P=13,7 x 10= 137 Watts Then we are routing this trough a booster; The booster increase the charge voltage, and by this increase the amps... The total watts delivered will (maybe) be P=U*I P=14,4 x 20= 288 Watts Or is it more like The total watts delivered will (maybe) be P=U*I P=14,4 x 10= 144 Watts? (If so; why bother if you earn 7 wats :-) Where do the extra watts come from? The ECU dont change any setpoint? Or? Booster internal nuclear power plant? I dont fully get the technology? At this time I do accept that; yes, The DC / DC charger will give me more amps when driving Whatever happen... If we increase the process and the numbers; Batteries get more watt and amps from the alternator. As a result of this the alternator will produce more heat. There is limits for alternators... windings... diodes... etc. Burned insulation smells terrible... Change the alternator.? But what about the ECU? The ECU would still look at the exhaust and lower the alternator output? Maybe I am better of leaving the alternator for my starter battery :-) Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 Jan, I can't believe how many changes you have made to what is already the most sophisticated and complex electronics we know of installed in a Motorhome? I am guessing the addition of the Votronic Power monitor is because the changes have rendered the Schaudt LCD display unit irrelevant? While I am sure you are perfectly happy with your Motorhome and how it works for now, but it is the type of Motorhome we hate to see after 5 years. When things go wrong, usually for the next owner, tracing back all the wiring for all the changes is a nightmare. As already noted by others on this Forum, owning a Motorhome where the owner has made lots of changes can be traumatic to say the least!!. The cost of fixing an electrical fault can be huge, because so many things overlap in functionality it isn't easy to track the culprit. Often one thing fails and takes another with it, making it even more difficult because you fix what you trace as the problem, only to find it doesn't. Even worse you have the feeling that it won't be long before something else fails so you get the blame for 'creating' the new issue or even thoughts from the customer you did not fix the earlier issue properly in the first instance, even though this new issue is different. As for a B2B. Installation is rarely the same between one installer and another. The B2B's work in different ways, but generally the principal is to make the Alternator work harder to put more power into the batteries. Yet most good Motorhome installations already charge the battery at the rate which the battery manufacturer believes is the optimum for long life. To me, 'Forcing' anything above the ideal is going to end in tears, especially on Gel batteries?. They are generally wired directly from Battery to Battery bypassing all the Electronics which the Motorhome manufacturer has spent a lot of time integrating. They usually short circuit the functionality of what the 'standard' units are working to achieve. We advocate optimising the Alternator charging by improving electrical efficiency. But charging the battery at a power level it dries out, isn't something Exide would advise, I am sure?. Your Schaudt EBL 213 SDTBus (like a Car Canbus) is one of the most complex units we know of. Just like on a car where just changing a Light Bulb can throw up issues, making so many changes seems to me to be a recipe for disaster for some poor future owner? A good modern, B2B installation will address the issues of a 'fuel saving' Alternator and work in harmony with the existing electronics without the battery needing 6 litres of Fluid every 1,000 miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan V Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 aandncaravan - 2017-02-11 12:53 PM Jan, I can't believe how many changes you have made to what is already the most sophisticated and complex electronics we know of installed in a Motorhome? I am guessing the addition of the Votronic Power monitor is because the changes have rendered the Schaudt LCD display unit irrelevant? In our country we park nearly anywhere. Most spots in nature do not provide any 230 vac outlets. The "most sophisticated and complex electronics" do have one flaw; As delivered the unit make me park for only one, maybe two nights before we getting low on amps. Typically we would use 75-100 Ah in a 24 hrs periode. 320 Ah GEL´s and 50% .... Thats 160 Ah available... The original EBL213 display show the flow of current A into the leisure battery, but do not show the battery capacity or "remaining" Ah. This feature could replace the satellite entertainment any given day :-) Another reason for adding my Votronic LCD is for the solar and fuel cell currents. Since I did not want to stress the EBL, these units are connected directly to the batteries. For that reason values not displayed on the EBL display. Installed a total of 400 Watts give aprox 22 Amps on a sunny day south by the Med. In our part of northern Europe we are happy to get 10 Amps on a very good summer day. I do manually turn solar on. If my solar dont give any reasonable values I turn them off again. Instead I turn on the methanol fuel cell that will give 6 amps as max. This values I consider as charging "with comfort". During a 24 hr periode I do manage to fill batteries with aprox. my consumption. aandncaravan - 2017-02-11 12:53 PM While I am sure you are perfectly happy with your Motorhome and how it works for now, but it is the type of Motorhome we hate to see after 5 years. When things go wrong, usually for the next owner, tracing back all the wiring for all the changes is a nightmare. As already noted by others on this Forum, owning a Motorhome where the owner has made lots of changes can be traumatic to say the least!!. The cost of fixing an electrical fault can be huge, because so many things overlap in functionality it isn't easy to track the culprit. Often one thing fails and takes another with it, making it even more difficult because you fix what you trace as the problem, only to find it doesn't. Even worse you have the feeling that it won't be long before something else fails so you get the blame for 'creating' the new issue or even thoughts from the customer you did not fix the earlier issue properly in the first instance, even though this new issue is different. And for those reasons I have not done any other changes yet. (also ref. "most sophisticated and complex electronics") Only adding the solar and fuel cell, ... "outside" the EBL. I am getting older and got a hard time to follow my own tracks :-) When I do make any additions or modifications I always make drawings and schematics. Those documents I keep in the motorhome. Never know when we need the docs :-) When I sell my modified cars, motorhomes, etc...., I like to sell them wired as original. For that reason I am trying to make any installation easy to reverse. Probably also why I have CTek´s "in stock" Left over from earlier vehicle :-) aandncaravan - 2017-02-11 12:53 PM As for a B2B. Installation is rarely the same between one installer and another. The B2B's work in different ways, but generally the principal is to make the Alternator work harder to put more power into the batteries. Yet most good Motorhome installations already charge the battery at the rate which the battery manufacturer believes is the optimum for long life. To me, 'Forcing' anything above the ideal is going to end in tears, especially on Gel batteries?. They are generally wired directly from Battery to Battery bypassing all the Electronics which the Motorhome manufacturer has spent a lot of time integrating. They usually short circuit the functionality of what the 'standard' units are working to achieve. We advocate optimising the Alternator charging by improving electrical efficiency. But charging the battery at a power level it dries out, isn't something Exide would advise, I am sure?. Your Schaudt EBL 213 SDTBus (like a Car Canbus) is one of the most complex units we know of. Just like on a car where just changing a Light Bulb can throw up issues, making so many changes seems to me to be a recipe for disaster for some poor future owner? A good modern, B2B installation will address the issues of a 'fuel saving' Alternator and work in harmony with the existing electronics without the battery needing 6 litres of Fluid every 1,000 miles. Not sure yet, but it is tempting to suspect that my B2B CTek´s will end up in my charge cable again. But again; outside the EBL213, the "most sophisticated and complex electronics". :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 Jan, You are clearly more capable than most and documenting something for a techy to subsequently follow is very rare. On your CTEK refit : I don't doubt it, most people have more sense than to listen to me. On lithium you write : " The "talk" about LiFePo4 batteries is that they all contain a BMS (Battery Management System). According to the vendors and customers "the BMS will take care of all my concerns" "No worries" is the answer you get if you ask the ones that already converted for LiFePo4. According to the "talk"; - BMS will take whatever voltage, and covert this to whatever the LiFePo4 wants. - BMS will cut off the charging if voltage over the high limit. - BMS will cut off the charging if battery is fully charged " You are right that a Lithium battery pack requires a Battery Management System to nurture and care for it. Very carefully and precisely. A BMS might do all you say, when it is 100% perfect, but what if a 10p resistor sampling the voltage in the BMS goes awry? A BMS is just a sophisticated battery charger. Chargers and electronics fail, few know that better than us. What if the BMS doesn't work as it should and starts overcharging, undercharging or monitoring the voltages incorrectly? The consequences of it not working correctly are very, very expensive. We are not talking a £90 battery that gets destroyed as a direct consequence of the BMS failure, but potentially thousands of pounds of Lithium pack damage. On your car, when the ECU starts playing up, it is usually instantly obvious. Would you know that a fault inside the BMS is shortening the life of the Lithium battery to just a few cycles? Probably only find out when the lithium pack was scrap? What is the lifetime quality of the electronics in the BMS, is it guaranteed reliable for 20years or just 20 months? Who will repair it if it goes faulty outside the warranty period? Would a BMS issue that scrapped the battery within warranty mean that only the BMS was replaced, not any consequential damage to the battery? When some Motorhome/Caravan chargers apparently have lives of just a few years is it cost effective to trust a very expensive battery pack to electronics maybe made in someones Garden shed in China? If the batteries are so wonderful, why are the warranties so short? I would suggest that It might be a good idea to only buy a Lithium battery where the electronics are built by a top quality, high reputation company and also guaranteed 10 years and 3,000 cycles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan V Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 aandncaravan - 2017-02-11 2:19 PM Jan, on your CTEK : I don't doubt it, most people have more sense than to listen to me. :-D :-D :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 Jan V - 2017-02-11 1:33 PM aandncaravan - 2017-02-11 2:19 PM Jan, on your CTEK : I don't doubt it, most people have more sense than to listen to me. :-D :-D :-D The EBL 213 is a bit unique, so if you do fit the CTEKs, why not consider fitting them between the Starter battery feed in to the EBL 213, PCV6--16/2--G1F--10,16 -- Block 4, Pin 1, not as the CTEK instructions say about battery to Battery? This will ensure you don't spoil the existing functionality. The CTEK then providing a steady, stable 14v'ish supply to the EBL from the Alternator? Not sure which version of CTEK (not a fan of them at all) you have but some can tolerate a 11.5v input but still give out 14.4v output, so compensating for the 'fuel saving' mode on later Euro 6 type vehicles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan V Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 aandncaravan - 2017-02-11 2:50 PM Jan V - 2017-02-11 1:33 PM aandncaravan - 2017-02-11 2:19 PM Jan, on your CTEK : I don't doubt it, most people have more sense than to listen to me. The EBL 213 is a bit unique, so if you do fit the CTEKs, why not consider fitting them between the Starter battery feed in to the EBL 213, PCV6--16/2--G1F--10,16 -- Block 4, Pin 1, not as the CTEK instructions say about battery to Battery? This will ensure you don't spoil the existing functionality. The CTEK then providing a steady, stable 14v'ish supply to the EBL from the Alternator? Not sure which version of CTEK (not a fan of them at all) you have but some can tolerate a 11.5v input but still give out 14.4v output, so compensating for the 'fuel saving' mode on later Euro 6 type vehicles? Checking the manual... The Dual 250 S stop charging at < 12,8 volt (more than 10 sec.) Restart charging at > 13,1 volt (more than 5 sec) (Looks like this is how the CTek is made.) I do believe I have seen number up to ca. 35 Amps from orginal setup.. Shortly after start up the A decreasing... decreasing... decreasing 8-) The CTek Dual 250 S is good for 20 A max. (in my mind comfort mode) Anything over 20 A would be routed trough the Smartpass (if fitted) (max 80A) At the most I would never get any more than ECU and alternator find as max A, (e.g. the 35 A)? And when the ECU and alternator lower the charging the CTek would keep the A at a higher level? In average I will get more Amps to my batteries. For a moment I was thinking to keep the CTek away from the EBL. But it also makes sense to connect them on the feed before the EBL. The EBL 230 VAC charge give 6A max for the starter battery on the same feedline. Need to figure out how to bypass the CTek´s. Easy done with a D+ controlled relay I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted December 8, 2017 Author Share Posted December 8, 2017 Derek Uzzell - 2017-02-10 1:49 PM Alan Any thoughts on ‘lead crystal’ batteries for motorhome leisure use? http://lead-crystalbatteries.co.uk/ http://www.motorcaravanning.co.uk/shopuk/leisure_batteries_lead_crystal.htm http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/galax-e-leisure-batteries.127543/ I said I would get back to this question on Lead Crystal batteries when I have time, so I have updated the websites "Battery Technology" page with a section on Lead Crystal Batteries : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php It basically says : Lead Crystal Batteries? "We would advise caution in regard to buying Lead Crystal batteries as the very technology inhibits the heat transfer that develops whenever any battery is used. Therefore it's use may be severely limited by this restriction to an even greater degree than the poor performing Gel or AGM at high temperatures. The marketing blurb states : "A unique micro-porous high absorbent mat (AGM), pure lead plates, safe SiO2 electrolyte solution that solidifies into a white crystalline powder when charged/discharged" They also require special battery chargers/Alternators, see this below from the Blurb, which took me some time to find on the Betta website as it's not covered at all on the usual pages extolling the batteries virtues : "Our patented Lead Crystal® Batteries have different charge characteristics compared to conventional lead based batteries and therefore need suitable chargers to function optimally. The Lead Crystal chargers are embedded with optimized micro-processor controlled charging algorithms that ensure correct charging of all Lead Crystal® Batteries". Note that failure to use of one of their own special chargers will almost certainly invalidate the Warranty and definitely cause the battery to underperform. How you would integrate one of these chargers with something like a Sargent EC 325, EC 328, etc. and still have the charging information displayed on the LCD unit above the door would be a complex puzzle for someone. As it would be for most Motorhome Power Controllers where the charger is integrated into the entire Power control/Distribution unit. Such a change will probably invalidate the Sargent/Auto Sleepers warranty? Note that despite a claimed 8 - 10 year life, the poor 3 year warranty (less than your average Wet battery) is pretty much a none starter as the battery has to have failed to the point were it is absolutely devastated beyond scrap before you can even think of making a claim, see this extract : "Betta Batteries will replace a battery if, when used within its parameters, the available capacity falls to a level lower than 40% in 10 hours under no load within 18 months, or if the capacity falls lower than 30% in 10h under no load within 19 to 36 months. The guarantee will be null and void in the event the battery is installed incorrectly, misused, used or (dis)charged outside specifications, damaged by external influences (like lightning, fire, current overloads, electrical shorts, power surges or water)". In other words the battery has got to be so bad that standing idle, disconnected from the vehicle, the warranty will only be valid if it 'self discharges' 60% of it's capacity in just 10 hours!! To me that is not a Warranty at all, so no 'fall back' to test driving this new technology, which is far from low cost. We would advise that you let others test drive this technology and wait a few years to see just how it lives up to the claims and see just how good the warranty actually is. Our position on Lead Crystal batteries will always be more up to date on the web page, but the above will remain unchanged, so go to the webpage for the latest info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 I have started up the engine with hookup lead attached (and live). On a 2003 Burstner with EBL99 and everything was as normal when I realised and rectified my foolishness. 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 747 - 2017-12-08 12:17 PM I have started up the engine with hookup lead attached (and live). On a 2003 Burstner with EBL99 and everything was as normal when I realised and rectified my foolishness. 8-) We have also done that! But drove away with lead attached. Did not realise until we returned home, and found lead broken on the drive! Did not affect the van BUt never done it since, now always check PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.