Worried about payload on Apache 632

[Brian Kirby]

Robbo - 2017-03-25 8:51 PM

 

Brian, the spec for the AT 632 indicates the use of 225/75 R16CP tyres....................

Thanks. That will be for the new X290 based vans, so all these should have tyres that are good to 2,500 kg axle load, which is far more sensible. My comments related to X250 based vans (of which there will be a lot in circulation). In retrospect, I should have made that clear.

 

Seemingly, from posts above, this van has a 2 x 13kg gas locker: all well and good. One full 13kg steel cylinder - the commonest available in UK - weighs in at about 56kg. Assuming that AT's Mass in Running Order calculation is based on one full 13kg gas cylinder, adding one further such cylinder on the 3.5 tonne MAM version, reduces the user payload to just a sensible margin for error - and you're still carrying zero fresh water. Ridiculous! Upgrade the van to 3,650kg, and then fill the 130litre water tank, and all you've gained is a further 20kg. Still ridiculous!

 

The simple solution to this problem would be for AT to accept that this van is unsuitable at 3,500kg (and pretty much so at 3,650kg, and base it on the heavy chassis. Far better that than mislead the inexperienced into buying vans with an inadequate payload, that are consequently likely to be illegally loaded.

[ron.]

How different manufacturers use different calculations to arrive at user payload has been a disgrace for many years now. There is a perfectly good EU standard which sets out how payload should be calculated - EN 1646-2. This takes into account all the above good advice that has been given to the original poster. The fact that some manufacturers, including Auto Trail in this case, do not comply should start alarm bells ringing as to why not. Nine times out of ten the answer is that the payload quoted under their 'own' system is inadequate. The evidence of overloaded motorhomes is overwhelming so why a standard calculation of payload isn't incorporated in law truly escapes me.

 

I can only advise the original poster to cancel his order on the grounds that the vehicle is unsuitable for use or you will regret it. Do you really want to be continually worrying obout payload, dumping and filling up with water, gas, etc - you are supposed to be enjoying yourself!

 

Ron

 

 

[Brock]

Unfortunately, Ron, the perfectly good EN standard for calculating payload was withdrawn because it was in conflict with the European Directive for the Masses and Dimensions of vehicles. As the Directive ranks higher in European law making, the standard was withdrawn.

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/news/european-rule-changes-means-more-motorhome-payload

 

I expect Auto Trail is complying with the Directive.

[ron.]

Brock - 2017-03-26 10:15 PM

 

Unfortunately, Ron, the perfectly good EN standard for calculating payload was withdrawn because it was in conflict with the European Directive for the Masses and Dimensions of vehicles. As the Directive ranks higher in European law making, the standard was withdrawn.

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/news/european-rule-changes-means-more-motorhome-payload

 

I expect Auto Trail is complying with the Directive.

 

Thanks for bringing me up to date John, I'd completely missed that. However, to my mind the change has made the situation even worse. Why can't we have an industry wide agreement quoting a set amount of water (the usual problem) say 90L, to be used in the calculation. At least it would be a sensible amount unlike the ridiculous cupful that can quoted now. How a newcomer to the hobby avoids being caught out, and trapped into braking the law, is beyond me.

 

Ron

[lennyhb]

Brock - 2017-03-24 7:07 PM

 

Bop, most manufacturers work on a +-5% tolerance in their quoted weights. Most public weighbridges have a tolerance of 5%+-. VOSA examiners will allow a 5% tolerance before Fixed Penalty or Prohibition issue unless the relevant weight has been exceeded by 1 tonne or more. VOSA usually expect the overload to be corrected before the driver moves on. There is a weight check on the A55 and I've seen motorhomers emptying water tanks under the supervision of the examiners and caravans leaving baggage by the road side and presumably coming back later to pick it up. So if you are polite to the examiners, show an appreciation of axle and vehicle weights, there is a good chance that any motorhomer within 5% will escape a Fixed Penalty or Prohibition.

 

Hymer are the only manufacturer that I know who constantly produce vans at or below the given weight (all 3 of our Hymers have been under) nearly all other manufacturers are towards the +5% tolerance.

There is no official allowance for being over weight so don't rely on the 5% certainly won't apply in other countries.

Tolerance on weight bridges is, Plate weight bridge +/-50kg, Dynianic weighbride +/-150kg on each axle.

 

I suspect an Apache 632 on 3650 chassis will be lucky to have 275kg of payload. By the time you take into account extras probably down to nearer 150kg, the van is not fit for purpose.

From experience we have found for 2 people you need 500-600kg payload and we are light and travel fairly light, I am 74kg the boss 40kg don't have an awning (approx 40kg).

 

Just got our latest Hymer last week sensible payload of 1,212kg.

[Brock]

Ron, agree with you entirely that the situation is worse. It's OK to give a motorhomer a choice but if you do, you have to provide the information so that an informed choice can be made.

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian Kirby - 2017-03-26 2:38 PM

 

...One full 13kg steel cylinder - the commonest available in UK - weighs in at about 56kg...

 

I believe you may be ‘thinking Imperial’ as a full Calor 13kg-capacity propane canister weighs somewhere between 25kg and 35kg.

 

https://www.calor.co.uk/shop/gas-bottles/13kg-propane-gas-bottle.html

 

(Manhandling a 35kg-weight canister into a gas-locker is bad enough - 56kg would be back-breaking.)

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2017-03-27 1:59 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-03-26 2:38 PM

 

...One full 13kg steel cylinder - the commonest available in UK - weighs in at about 56kg...

 

I believe you may be ‘thinking Imperial’ as a full Calor 13kg-capacity propane canister weighs somewhere between 25kg and 35kg.

 

https://www.calor.co.uk/shop/gas-bottles/13kg-propane-gas-bottle.html

 

(Manhandling a 35kg-weight canister into a gas-locker is bad enough - 56kg would be back-breaking.)

No, it's far worse than that! I inadvertently quoted the weight for two full cylinders, not one! For one, I should have halved it: 28kg for one. Careless!

[Keith T]

Our new (still to be delivered) Autotrail 610SE PVC on the 3.5ton van base, shows MRO of 550kg and as stated above AT show MRO as inc 75kg for driver, full fuel tank, and one full gas cylinder (unspecified what size!). In our case there is an underbody Gas tank which holds 25litres.

 

Given the weight of LPG bottles at 6kg of gas, can anyone tell me how much actual gas would have been in that size tank in litres, please? I'm only concerned In terms of how often I would need to fill/top up - in general usage a 6kg bottle lasted us most of the year!

 

In terms of what is already within the MRO though, I have to say there's a lot more included on the basic vehicle as supplied, including an awning and spare wheel, but I must admit I do like to travel with a reasonable amount of fresh water, and also to bring back a fair amount if wine from France - though we do buy the 3litre boxes rather than glass jars.

Checking weight figures as supplied and usually when in reviews though, I have to wonder how many 6-7m coachbuilts can have anything like a usable carrying capacity when on the 3.5ton chassis, and the latter is very important for many of us in the over 70 category!!

[Mike88]

Keith T - 2017-03-27 5:30 PM

 

Our new (still to be delivered) Autotrail 610SE PVC on the 3.5ton van base, shows MRO of 550kg and as stated above AT show MRO as inc 75kg for driver, full fuel tank, and one full gas cylinder (unspecified what size!). In our case there is an underbody Gas tank which holds 25litres.

 

 

 

Sorry to go slightly off topic but could you tell me how long you have had to wait for delivery. of your 610SE. Incidentally the payload is 395kgs according to Autotrail's weight calculator which for a pvc is lowish but acceptable to me at least. I would have preferred the 610 Sport but the payload is unacceptable.

[mgnbuk]

"In our case there is an underbody Gas tank which holds 25litres.

 

Given the weight of LPG bottles at 6kg of gas, can anyone tell me how much actual gas would have been in that size tank in litres, please? I'm only concerned In terms of how often I would need to fill/top up - in general usage a 6kg bottle lasted us most of the year!"

 

Approx 2 litres of LPG per kilogramme, but you can only fill the tank to 80% of rated capacity. So your tank is 20 litres working capacity ,or about 10 kg of gas.

 

HTH

 

Nigel B

 

[armstrongpiper]

I think 6Kg Propane equates to about 11 - 12 litres.

 

Neil B

[AlanS]

Mike88 - 2017-03-27 6:48 PM

 

Keith T - 2017-03-27 5:30 PM

 

Our new (still to be delivered) Autotrail 610SE PVC on the 3.5ton van base, shows MRO of 550kg and as stated above AT show MRO as inc 75kg for driver, full fuel tank, and one full gas cylinder (unspecified what size!). In our case there is an underbody Gas tank which holds 25litres.

 

 

 

Sorry to go slightly off topic but could you tell me how long you have had to wait for delivery. of your 610SE. Incidentally the payload is 395kgs according to Autotrail's weight calculator which for a pvc is lowish but acceptable to me at least. I would have preferred the 610 Sport but the payload is unacceptable.

 

This AutoTrail already come fully loaded, e.g. spare wheel, gas tank, microwave, Truma Combi., awning and solar panel, etc

The payload is 395kg plus the passenger personal allowance of 80kg which equals 475kg - almost half a metric tonne for your bits and pieces in a 6 metre long PVC ! What do people carry that would use up all that overall payload ?

Alan

[Robinhood]

Mike88 - 2017-03-27 6:48 PM

 

Incidentally the payload is 395kgs according to Autotrail's weight calculator ..........

 

...though this is after a 75kg allowance for a passenger, and 80kg allowance for personal effects - which supports the figure of 550kg quoted above (subject, of course to all those things highlighted that haven't been allowed for in the MRO of 2950kg).

 

 

[Mike88]

Robinhood - 2017-03-27 7:19 PM

 

Mike88 - 2017-03-27 6:48 PM

 

Incidentally the payload is 395kgs according to Autotrail's weight calculator ..........

 

...though this is after a 75kg allowance for a passenger, and 80kg allowance for personal effects - which supports the figure of 550kg quoted above (subject, of course to all those things highlighted that haven't been allowed for in the MRO of 2950kg).

 

 

I agree but the figures being referred to in the earlier posts about the Apache 632 do not take account of the allowances for passenger and personal effects. I was trying to compare like with like. By making allowances for passenger and personal effects the figure for the Apache 632 should be 365kgs and not the figure quoted in the original post.

[Keith T]

Mike88 - 2017-03-27 6:48 PM

 

Keith T - 2017-03-27 5:30 PM

 

Our new (still to be delivered) Autotrail 610SE PVC on the 3.5ton van base, shows MRO of 550kg and as stated above AT show MRO as inc 75kg for driver, full fuel tank, and one full gas cylinder (unspecified what size!). In our case there is an underbody Gas tank which holds 25litres.

 

 

 

Sorry to go slightly off topic but could you tell me how long you have had to wait for delivery. of your 610SE. Incidentally the payload is 395kgs according to Autotrail's weight calculator which for a pvc is lowish but acceptable to me at least. I would have preferred the 610 Sport but the payload is unacceptable.

 

Ordered at Birmingham Show, last October, with expected delivery/build Feb, which then got to Feb/March build. quoted delivery at present is 7th April to dealers....hopefully will be on time....

Re payloads, yes, I just checked the info as I wondered what the difference would be (other than price...!) for the Sport, .and my thoughts were exactly what you have said....I reckon mine on the 610SE is just about acceptable and usable.

 

[derek pringle]

Robinhood - 2017-03-27 7:19 PM

 

Mike88 - 2017-03-27 6:48 PM

 

Incidentally the payload is 395kgs according to Autotrail's weight calculator ..........

 

...though this is after a 75kg allowance for a passenger, and 80kg allowance for personal effects - which supports the figure of 550kg quoted above (subject, of course to all those things highlighted that haven't been allowed for in the MRO of 2950kg).

 

 

 

hi Robinhood,

Would it also be fair [not rude ] to suggest most middle aged m/homers would probably exceed 75kg?,point is all of this is before you put any gear in the van.

cheers

derek

 

[Robinhood]

derek pringle - 2017-03-28 9:05 AM

 

hi Robinhood,

Would it also be fair [not rude ] to suggest most middle aged m/homers would probably exceed 75kg?,point is all of this is before you put any gear in the van.

cheers

derek

 

 

...you can say what you want - I no longer count myself middle-aged, so (though they might otherwise be apposite) the comments don't apply to me.

 

SWMBO, however, might be offended - on one real and one "imagined" basis (and I'm too timid to highlight which is which).

 

;-)

[Bop]

If anything I hope this thread has given people some more food for thought in terms of payload and how to choose the correct MH.

 

I'm also hoping that the Dealer networks (all brands) are now being interrogated by potential customers on the topics of payload and legal stuff; after all, we are the only ones that can make a difference in the absence of any officiating industry standard.

[Brian Kirby]

AlanS - 2017-03-27 7:19 PM................................AutoTrail already come fully loaded, e.g. spare wheel, gas tank, microwave, Truma Combi., awning and solar panel, etc

The payload is 395kg plus the passenger personal allowance of 80kg which equals 475kg - almost half a metric tonne for your bits and pieces in a 6 metre long PVC ! What do people carry that would use up all that overall payload ?

Alan

The van referred to above is not the subject of the original post, and has a reasonable payload. However, since you ask, under four headings, our added occupancy load is:

 

Clothes (all, including nightwear, for spring/autumn and summer): 35kg.

 

Food (all, including fresh, dry, and liquids, for about 5 days: we shop as we go): 64kg.

 

General (Bit of a miscellany, includes tools, water hoses, electric cables, bikes etc, buckets, doormat, cleaning materials, detergents, levelling ramps, wheel chocks, cutlery, maps and guides, towels and washing kit etc.): 165kg.

 

Kitchen (utensils, pots and pans): 15kg.

Total: 279kg.

 

To this, added to the basic habitation load are:

second gas cylinder: 28kg.

fresh water: 100kg.

passenger: (under 75kg!).

Total added load: 482kg.

 

So, you see, it soon adds up.

[Mickydripin]

Hi Kev,

Don't go down the road that I did I had a white elephant on my drive for five years and it never turned a

wheel.

Due to no payload problems, Once you have got it it is murder to get them to take it back.

It cost me thousands of pounds with solicitors and time I won in the end but at what cost.

Take notice of Brian and cancel it now he and others on this site helped me no end and kept me sane with there great help.

Mike.

[kevandali]

Thanks everyone for all the advice/information, not posted for a while as I am still waiting for Auto Trail and the supplier, Danum Leisure, to get back to me.

If the payload is low but workable, I can live with that, but if it's not workable, until I get some replies I am not sure where I stand.

At no time was payload ever mentioned and to be honest until now was something that I never considered.

I, like a lot of other would be customers assume that we would be able to carry the basics for a 2/3 week holiday without even having to consider how close to overloading we might be.

I am not pointing the finger at anyone but it does seem strange that across the board, with most suppliers and manufacturers, exact payload is something that is not covered and for such an important factor it really should be bought to the attention of the customer.

I/we really do love the layout of the van as it ticks all the boxes regarding how we use our motorhomes.

I am sincerely grateful for all the information that I have received and at the moment my overall feeling is disapointment that this even has to be an issue when we should just have been counting the days until we take off in the new van.

The bottom line really, is can we safely and legally load the new van with the basic gear that we would need for a 2/3 week holiday, we are not full timing or planning much longer trips.

Like I said earlier, if the payload is low but workable for us then happy days, :-) if not,then we will just have to see what happens. 

[AlanS]

Brian Kirby - 2017-03-28 12:33 PM

 

AlanS - 2017-03-27 7:19 PM................................AutoTrail already come fully loaded, e.g. spare wheel, gas tank, microwave, Truma Combi., awning and solar panel, etc

The payload is 395kg plus the passenger personal allowance of 80kg which equals 475kg - almost half a metric tonne for your bits and pieces in a 6 metre long PVC ! What do people carry that would use up all that overall payload ?

Alan

The van referred to above is not the subject of the original post, and has a reasonable payload. However, since you ask, under four headings, our added occupancy load is:

 

Clothes (all, including nightwear, for spring/autumn and summer): 35kg.

 

Food (all, including fresh, dry, and liquids, for about 5 days: we shop as we go): 64kg.

 

General (Bit of a miscellany, includes tools, water hoses, electric cables, bikes etc, buckets, doormat, cleaning materials, detergents, levelling ramps, wheel chocks, cutlery, maps and guides, towels and washing kit etc.): 165kg.

 

Kitchen (utensils, pots and pans): 15kg.

Total: 279kg.

 

To this, added to the basic habitation load are:

second gas cylinder: 28kg.

fresh water: 100kg.

passenger: (under 75kg!).

Total added load: 482kg.

 

So, you see, it soon adds up.

 

Hi Brian

I know it is straying from the original OP's thread but I was referring to the PVC in question and as I said it was less than 6.0 metres, fully loaded with original spec equipment including in-built gas tank. I was questioning exactly how one would use up the payload of 475kg in this particular van even if you were carrying a couple of electric bikes on the back (yes, I know how heavy they are).

As for carrying on board water, AutoTrail over the last couple of years recommended a maximum of 20litres of water whilst travelling and even had a separate 'travel drain' on the fresh water to get to this figure and I seem to remember that the likes of Hymer also used to recommend this quantity ? We have a 135 litre fresh water tank but travel with no more than 50% as it is so easy to top up when needed abroad.

Alan

[Brian Kirby]

AlanS - 2017-03-28 6:19 PM.....................As for carrying on board water, AutoTrail over the last couple of years recommended a maximum of 20litres of water whilst travelling and even had a separate 'travel drain' on the fresh water to get to this figure and I seem to remember that the likes of Hymer also used to recommend this quantity ? We have a 135 litre fresh water tank but travel with no more than 50% as it is so easy to top up when needed abroad.

Alan

You are right and Hymer do also cheat in this way. However, I prefer to travel with a full tank, and only re-fill when it falls to about 50%. So, I carefully selected a van with sufficient payload to allow me to do that. BTW, how does one know one has only 50% in the tank, so remain within one's MAM? Using the travel drain when weighing would allow one to establish weight when that is triggered, but one is then needing to fill on arrival, and jettison water on leaving, to remain "street legal". Too much faff, for me, I'm afraid! :-)

[Bop]

kevandali - 2017-03-28 2:36 PM

 

Thanks everyone for all the advice/information, not posted for a while as I am still waiting for Auto Trail and the supplier, Danum Leisure, to get back to me.

If the payload is low but workable, I can live with that, but if it's not workable, until I get some replies I am not sure where I stand.

At no time was payload ever mentioned and to be honest until now was something that I never considered.

 

 

I reckon there will be a few chats going on behind the scenes Kev.

 

Either way I hope all goes well for you.

 

Cheers,

 

Andrew