Brexit Border Wall

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2017-04-11 8:10 PM

 

pagey - 2017-04-11 6:51 PM

 

the singing started in june

 

You reckon? You Brexiteers must be a bit hoarse by now waiting for your "Land of Hope and Glory" Moment. You may have a good few years yet to tune up and a week is a long time in politics, let alone 2, 4 or 5 years. There may be no Brexiteers left by the time it goes ahead (if it goes ahead). Judging by the way most of them have been bursting blood vessels since June you will all be in the funny farm by then and we can just go back to normal. (lol)

 

More pith

[RogerC]

Barryd999 - 2017-04-11 6:50 PM

Regarding the £350,000,000 by leaving the EU we will no longer be a net.....that is 'net' contributor of (according to the Treasury)£8,600,000,000...............£8.6 BILLION. Now that is one heck of a lot of money that can be spent where our own government decides instead of throwing it at Brussels for them to spend........so yes the £350,000,000 is clearly a good weapon in the remain arsenal but for me I would rather have the £8.6 billion in the bank of UK for the benefit of the UK population.

Sounds a lot doesnt it us saving £8.6 billion until you consider the likely loss of £50 billion a year if it ends up being a hard brexit?. Even if we do a deal we will likely have to stump up a £50 billion settlement fee and with any deal there will no doubt be a cost and paying in. Any deal we get will never be as good as what we have now though so however it pans out I think you can pretty much assume we will be more than £8.6 billion a year worse off. As for the £350m anyone with half a brain cell knew it was tosh the minute it appeared on the side of a bus.

So you would rather stay a member of a club that takes £13 BILLION from us in membership fees, tells us what we can and can't do, who we can and can't trade with, is happy for us to pay into NATO when the other 'big guns' in the EU renege on their financial and defence responsibilities to the benefit of their 'bottom line' and the detriment of ours..........Germany and France?

Now please explain to me just how we are better off staying in......to be sucked into the political superstate that the EU mandarins are wanting to bring about whereby they will be, not only in political control but fiscally as well.......and we have all seen what that has brought about in Greece and Italy.  

No thank you..........I have more faith in UK PLC to stand on it's own two feet than I have in the widening, burgeoning, dictatorial, politically overbearing monolith that is the failing club of the EU.

My feeling is they are running scared as to how to keep the edifice intact after the loss of the UK contributions................basically losing out net contribution is going to stymie their ambitions big time and I am all for that.  

[Bulletguy]

RogerC - 2017-04-11 4:42 PM

 

After BG post highlighted in BOLD above the rest of his post didn't carry any weight at all.....clearly posted by one who prefers Europe to his own country. BG might be unpatriotic, certainly has a very low opinion of those in the UK prepared to fight for his freedoms.

You are so far off the mark on that one Roger i feel the irony of what you wrote there (in bold) would be completely lost on you.

 

Because ww2 history was not on the curriculum when i was in school and i was desperate to learn more of it, it took years for me to get more information. The long running serial documentary, "World at War" was the real ground breaker, by which time i was 24. Since that time i've lost count of ww2 documentaries i've watched, my floor to ceiling bookcase is rammed with ww2 and post war books...many of which you cannot buy here in UK. In Europe i've spent my time visiting lots of places most other people wouldn't dream of going to.....15 Concentration camps, all six Extermination camps, Schloss Hartheim in Austria where the T4 Euthansia programme was developed later used in Nazi extermination camps, Colditz castle in Germany, Oskar Schindlers factory in Poland, Stalag Luft3 (Great Escape camp) also in Poland, Hitlers rocket factory at Peenemunde where Werner von Braun developed the V1 and V2.......the list is endless and i still find places to visit.

 

So not only do i have a very high opinion, i respect those who fought for the freedoms my generation enjoys today, i've been to see first hand places of importance relevant to that period which was so bitterly and hard fought by young men, and some women, from many countries who fought alongside us without whom we could never have won the war. The three Polish mathematicians who had broken the Enigma code before Turing, Jan Karski the Polish resistance fighter who risked his life to enter Treblinka to witness first hand the mass murder taking place then traveled to both UK and the US where his eye witness account was met with utter incredulity (Roosevelt never even asked him anything about the Jews). My mums first boyfriend, a 19 year old lad who never returned from war.

 

All these people, and countless thousands more, are who fought for my freedoms. Freedoms which Brexiters now want to disregard, send people from Europe back 'home', mount barricades to stop refugees entering......hmmm Schindler must be turning in his grave not to mention Britains own "Schindler", Nicholas Winton, who personally saved almost 700 refugees many of whom were Jews.

 

Now, if you and your rabid Brexiteer chums want to drag the country back further still into some kind of mad McCarthy witch hunt against people like me you believe to be political subversives for failing to dance to the Brexit tune and wave the English flag every day each time you pull the strings, go ahead with your regime of repression but don't pontificate about freedoms when you lot want to bin 'em. As has been said so many times before, nobody claimed the EU to be perfect, but i prefer it to jumping out of a plane without a parachute and genuinely believe we are better as a collective state of countries rather than one single independent (now politically shrinking) country and running away from the EU was not the answer. If that makes me "unpatriotic" for daring to express that view, then so be it but it's obvious you and i have very different ideas about who really fought for freedoms we enjoy today, and patriotism. I think you are also somewhat confused about my "communist mates" too as who else is funding Le Pens Front Nationale? The President of a country who longs to see the break up of what he, and you see as a "Euro Super state". Together it's a viable strong defensive presence.....divided up it no longer is.

 

 

[Barryd999]

RogerC - 2017-04-11 8:29 PM

Barryd999 - 2017-04-11 6:50 PM

Regarding the £350,000,000 by leaving the EU we will no longer be a net.....that is 'net' contributor of (according to the Treasury)£8,600,000,000...............£8.6 BILLION. Now that is one heck of a lot of money that can be spent where our own government decides instead of throwing it at Brussels for them to spend........so yes the £350,000,000 is clearly a good weapon in the remain arsenal but for me I would rather have the £8.6 billion in the bank of UK for the benefit of the UK population.

Sounds a lot doesnt it us saving £8.6 billion until you consider the likely loss of £50 billion a year if it ends up being a hard brexit?. Even if we do a deal we will likely have to stump up a £50 billion settlement fee and with any deal there will no doubt be a cost and paying in. Any deal we get will never be as good as what we have now though so however it pans out I think you can pretty much assume we will be more than £8.6 billion a year worse off. As for the £350m anyone with half a brain cell knew it was tosh the minute it appeared on the side of a bus.

So you would rather stay a member of a club that takes £13 BILLION from us in membership fees, tells us what we can and can't do, who we can and can't trade with, is happy for us to pay into NATO when the other 'big guns' in the EU renege on their financial and defence responsibilities to the benefit of their 'bottom line' and the detriment of ours..........Germany and France?

Now please explain to me just how we are better off staying in......to be sucked into the political superstate that the EU mandarins are wanting to bring about whereby they will be, not only in political control but fiscally as well.......and we have all seen what that has brought about in Greece and Italy.  

No thank you..........I have more faith in UK PLC to stand on it's own two feet than I have in the widening, burgeoning, dictatorial, politically overbearing monolith that is the failing club of the EU.

My feeling is they are running scared as to how to keep the edifice intact after the loss of the UK contributions................basically losing out net contribution is going to stymie their ambitions big time and I am all for that.  

I absolutely would rather stay in and pay a paltry £13 billion (although I notice in just a couple of hours its gone up from £8.6 billion) for the benefits we get and the fantastic opportunities it gives and the fact that we are the fifth largest economy in the world as a result. Its not perfect but your alternative of a hard brexit which lets face is what most of you on here are advocating just does not bear thinking about. There will be no EU superstate as you will find out in a few years time looking enviously back in as we disappear further into the abyss. The only people that will be running scared will be those that took us there. The bravado and Churchillesque speeches wont cut the mustard for much longer, sooner rather than later the truth will out regarding Brexit if it does go ahead and every one of you that took us down that path will be accountable. I only hope that Junker is good to his word and once we realise what a massive mistake its all been they allow us back in.

[pagey]

i am of the opinion that all of which is read is pure supposition only those in government have an idea of where this is going and they are not as yet saying. I can see why look upon the deal as a game of poker would you tell your opponent what cards you have? course not

[RogerC]

Bulletguy - 2017-04-11 10:18 PM

RogerC - 2017-04-11 4:42 PMAfter BG post highlighted in BOLD above the rest of his post didn't carry any weight at all.....clearly posted by one who prefers Europe to his own country. BG might be unpatriotic, certainly has a very low opinion of those in the UK prepared to fight for his freedoms.

You are so far off the mark on that one Roger i feel the irony of what you wrote there (in bold) would be completely lost on you.Because ww2 history was not on the curriculum when i was in school and i was desperate to learn more of it, it took years for me to get more information. The long running serial documentary, "World at War" was the real ground breaker, by which time i was 24. Since that time i've lost count of ww2 documentaries i've watched, my floor to ceiling bookcase is rammed with ww2 and post war books...many of which you cannot buy here in UK. In Europe i've spent my time visiting lots of places most other people wouldn't dream of going to.....15 Concentration camps, all six Extermination camps, Schloss Hartheim in Austria where the T4 Euthansia programme was developed later used in Nazi extermination camps, Colditz castle in Germany, Oskar Schindlers factory in Poland, Stalag Luft3 (Great Escape camp) also in Poland, Hitlers rocket factory at Peenemunde where Werner von Braun developed the V1 and V2.......the list is endless and i still find places to visit.So not only do i have a very high opinion, i respect those who fought for the freedoms my generation enjoys today, i've been to see first hand places of importance relevant to that period which was so bitterly and hard fought by young men, and some women, from many countries who fought alongside us without whom we could never have won the war. The three Polish mathematicians who had broken the Enigma code before Turing, Jan Karski the Polish resistance fighter who risked his life to enter Treblinka to witness first hand the mass murder taking place then traveled to both UK and the US where his eye witness account was met with utter incredulity (Roosevelt never even asked him anything about the Jews). My mums first boyfriend, a 19 year old lad who never returned from war.All these people, and countless thousands more, are who fought for my freedoms. Freedoms which Brexiters now want to disregard, send people from Europe back 'home', mount barricades to stop refugees entering......hmmm Schindler must be turning in his grave not to mention Britains own "Schindler", Nicholas Winton, who personally saved almost 700 refugees many of whom were Jews.Now, if you and your rabid Brexiteer chums want to drag the country back further still into some kind of mad McCarthy witch hunt against people like me you believe to be political subversives for failing to dance to the Brexit tune and wave the English flag every day each time you pull the strings, go ahead with your regime of repression but don't pontificate about freedoms when you lot want to bin 'em. As has been said so many times before, nobody claimed the EU to be perfect, but i prefer it to jumping out of a plane without a parachute and genuinely believe we are better as a collective state of countries rather than one single independent (now politically shrinking) country and running away from the EU was not the answer. If that makes me "unpatriotic" for daring to express that view, then so be it but it's obvious you and i have very different ideas about who really fought for freedoms we enjoy today, and patriotism. I think you are also somewhat confused about my "communist mates" too as who else is funding Le Pens Front Nationale? The President of a country who longs to see the break up of what he, and you see as a "Euro Super state". Together it's a viable strong defensive presence.....divided up it no longer is.

So you read a lot and are clearly a "war region" tourist....your list of names places etc does little to demonstrate why the UK should surrender it's independence, indeed contribute healthily to a bunch of overambitious politicos in Brussels......led by Germany.

I could list the places I have been when a war or conflict was actually in progress but I see no point in doing so......so your point in posting your reading and holiday habits is to illustrate what?

My comment regarding your patriotism, irrespective of your war tourism activities and watching it on TV still stand.  By stating Brits have never done patriotism apart from a few 'oddballs and white supremacists' as you so critically put it you indicate clearly (IMO)a despicable opinion of those millions of UK nationals that volunteered over the decades to keep this country free from German and other nations expansionist activities.  Yet you said that there were young men and women who fought 'alongside us'.....does that make them patriots and us oddballs and white supremacists then?  Your comments just don't make sense.  It appears to me to be the case that you have a greater allegiance to and appreciation of mainland Europe than to your own country.  Maybe your reading and war sites tourism have given you something of a skewed view of just how much continental Europe owes to the 'patriotism' of this country. 

Additionally you clearly can't address the NATO question or answer why the UK should be propping up both the EU and NATO whilst the other 'big' members go about making money off our contributions?

Similarly I'm interested as to the relevance of how the number of Irish passport applications has any bearing on the issue?

"Together it's a viable strong defensive presence......." you said.

You have got to be kidding........just look at the dithering stance the EU took over Putin annexing the Crimea for one.  

 You said..."you and i have very different ideas about who really fought for freedoms we enjoy today,".......well we most assuredly do.  Your opinion/appreciation appears to centre around those partisans and other patriotic individuals who did their duty in European theatres of war.  Mine starts at home towards those who did their 'Patriotic duty' by providing an intervention in Europe and numerous other countries in order to halt the spread of those expansionist nations who would otherwise have conquered other nations almost unopposed.

[Bulletguy]

RogerC - 2017-04-12 1:45 PM

 

So you read a lot and are clearly a "war region" tourist....your list of names places etc does little to demonstrate why the UK should surrender it's independence, indeed contribute healthily to a bunch of overambitious politicos in Brussels......led by Germany. I could list the places I have been when a war or conflict was actually in progress but I see no point in doing so......so your point in posting your reading and holiday habits is to illustrate what?

 

My comment regarding your patriotism, irrespective of your war tourism activities and watching it on TV still stand. By stating Brits have never done patriotism apart from a few 'oddballs and white supremacists' as you so critically put it you indicate clearly (IMO)a despicable opinion of those millions of UK nationals that volunteered over the decades to keep this country free from German and other nations expansionist activities. Yet you said that there were young men and women who fought 'alongside us'.....does that make them patriots and us oddballs and white supremacists then? Your comments just don't make sense. It appears to me to be the case that you have a greater allegiance to and appreciation of mainland Europe than to your own country. Maybe your reading and war sites tourism have given you something of a skewed view of just how much continental Europe owes to the 'patriotism' of this country.

No, you see i don't even begin to compare the motley collection of oddballs and white supremacists with the many nationalities of people who fought alongside us against Nazism. They fought for the freedoms my generation have enjoyed...not a bunch of right wing extremists. Far from a 'skewed view' to use your term, my time spent touring those places gave me a much broader increased knowledge than just reading a few books or watching a couple of documentaries, eg. it was one of my German friends you disparagingly referred to as "ex communist pals" who told me about Sophie Scholl. Her story is well known throughout Germany, i can't think why it's not so well known here.

 

 

Additionally you clearly can't address the NATO question or answer why the UK should be propping up both the EU and NATO whilst the other 'big' members go about making money off our contributions?

If by 'propping up' you mean contributing to the cost, yes countries such as Spain and Germany should be contributing more to meet the 2% per gdp. I think Germany is only about 0.8% under and there was a report that Stollenberg has told Germany they need more finance. Estonia, for such a small country is paying more than their share, but they also have Russia at their front doorstep and idiots like Trump declaring NATO as "obsolete" is far from helpful and must have had Putin salivating at the thought of it being destroyed.....along with the EU, which both you, and he, see as a "Super state".

 

Other than Brexit i cannot think of anything more foolhardy than seeking to dismantle NATO.

 

You said..."you and i have very different ideas about who really fought for freedoms we enjoy today,".......well we most assuredly do. Your opinion/appreciation appears to centre around those partisans and other patriotic individuals who did their duty in European theatres of war. Mine starts at home towards those who did their 'Patriotic duty' by providing an intervention in Europe and numerous other countries in order to halt the spread of those expansionist nations who would otherwise have conquered other nations almost unopposed.

Yes i do because whilst those people were fighting for the freedom of Britain, many thousands also lost their lives at the same time fighting with us for the future freedoms of their own countries. The service at the Menin Gate is testimony to the kind of patriotism i admire and respect, held every night for the past 89 years. WW2 and eventual VE day united us with our allied countries, apart from Russia but the Cold War era is another matter which took a long time to thaw.

 

You mention "numerous other countries halting the spread of expansionist nations" which would have "conquered other nations almost unopposed", but didn't state exactly which these countries were? How many are we talking of, ten, fifteen, over twenty? Who and which?

[RogerC]

Bulletguy - 2017-04-12 9:50 PM

RogerC - 2017-04-12 1:45 PMSo you read a lot and are clearly a "war region" tourist....your list of names places etc does little to demonstrate why the UK should surrender it's independence, indeed contribute healthily to a bunch of overambitious politicos in Brussels......led by Germany. I could list the places I have been when a war or conflict was actually in progress but I see no point in doing so......so your point in posting your reading and holiday habits is to illustrate what?My comment regarding your patriotism, irrespective of your war tourism activities and watching it on TV still stand. By stating Brits have never done patriotism apart from a few 'oddballs and white supremacists' as you so critically put it you indicate clearly (IMO)a despicable opinion of those millions of UK nationals that volunteered over the decades to keep this country free from German and other nations expansionist activities. Yet you said that there were young men and women who fought 'alongside us'.....does that make them patriots and us oddballs and white supremacists then? Your comments just don't make sense. It appears to me to be the case that you have a greater allegiance to and appreciation of mainland Europe than to your own country. Maybe your reading and war sites tourism have given you something of a skewed view of just how much continental Europe owes to the 'patriotism' of this country.

No, you see i don't even begin to compare the motley collection of oddballs and white supremacists with the many nationalities of people who fought alongside us against Nazism. They fought for the freedoms my generation have enjoyed...not a bunch of right wing extremists. Far from a 'skewed view' to use your term, my time spent touring those places gave me a much broader increased knowledge than just reading a few books or watching a couple of documentaries, eg. it was one of my German friends you disparagingly referred to as "ex communist pals" who told me about Sophie Scholl. Her story is well known throughout Germany, i can't think why it's not so well known here.

Additionally you clearly can't address the NATO question or answer why the UK should be propping up both the EU and NATO whilst the other 'big' members go about making money off our contributions?

If by 'propping up' you mean contributing to the cost, yes countries such as Spain and Germany should be contributing more to meet the 2% per gdp. I think Germany is only about 0.8% under and there was a report that Stollenberg has told Germany they need more finance. Estonia, for such a small country is paying more than their share, but they also have Russia at their front doorstep and idiots like Trump declaring NATO as "obsolete" is far from helpful and must have had Putin salivating at the thought of it being destroyed.....along with the EU, which both you, and he, see as a "Super state".Other than Brexit i cannot think of anything more foolhardy than seeking to dismantle NATO.

You said..."you and i have very different ideas about who really fought for freedoms we enjoy today,".......well we most assuredly do. Your opinion/appreciation appears to centre around those partisans and other patriotic individuals who did their duty in European theatres of war. Mine starts at home towards those who did their 'Patriotic duty' by providing an intervention in Europe and numerous other countries in order to halt the spread of those expansionist nations who would otherwise have conquered other nations almost unopposed.

Yes i do because whilst those people were fighting for the freedom of Britain, many thousands also lost their lives at the same time fighting with us for the future freedoms of their own countries. The service at the Menin Gate is testimony to the kind of patriotism i admire and respect, held every night for the past 89 years. WW2 and eventual VE day united us with our allied countries, apart from Russia but the Cold War era is another matter which took a long time to thaw.You mention "numerous other countries halting the spread of expansionist nations" which would have "conquered other nations almost unopposed", but didn't state exactly which these countries were? How many are we talking of, ten, fifteen, over twenty? Who and which?

I, like a great many others are more than aware of those countries that fell under the forces of occupation and oppression so as you are so inclined to tell that you are 'well read' on the subject you tell me just which countries were already subjugated prior to the intervention of the 'patriotic' British forces and their liberation............maybe a little research will make you rethink the determination of British patriotism and rescind your disparaging name calling.  Only a complete moron would consider that the UK went to war in self defence.....clearly you have a very strange view of those historic events.  Considering you are so enamoured....and I trust respectful of the Menin Gate remeberance ceremony I am surprised at your 'oddball/supremacist' comments.  Have you not noticed the thousands of Brits whose names stand so proudly above so many, so very many Commonwealth War Graves headstones?  They were/are true patriots.....please DO NOT soil their memory in your pursuit of an unachievable European idyll.

PS.....littering your post with names provided by East German .....dare I say Stasi or pseudo Stasi (because East Germany was one of the most surveilled by the populace on one each other outside of the Soviet Union) hardly cements your opinion of what is and isn't patriotism.  

[Bulletguy]

RogerC - 2017-04-12 10:22 PM

 

PS.....littering your post with names provided by East German .....dare I say Stasi or pseudo Stasi (because East Germany was one of the most surveilled by the populace on one each other outside of the Soviet Union) hardly cements your opinion of what is and isn't patriotism.

Jesus Christ Roger.......*-)

 

Do yourself a favour and read up on Sophie Scholl and what the White Rose movement was all about before wanging off more crass remarks.

 

Nothing to do with Stasi.......nothing to do with East Germans either. *-)

[RogerC]

Bulletguy - 2017-04-12 10:59 PM

RogerC - 2017-04-12 10:22 PMPS.....littering your post with names provided by East German .....dare I say Stasi or pseudo Stasi (because East Germany was one of the most surveilled by the populace on one each other outside of the Soviet Union) hardly cements your opinion of what is and isn't patriotism.

Jesus Christ Roger.......*-) Do yourself a favour and read up on Sophie Scholl and what the White Rose movement was all about before wanging off more crass remarks. Nothing to do with Stasi.......nothing to do with East Germans either. *-)

......and your point is?  I see no relevance or reason for your outburst.....I simply said littering your post with names provided by former East Germans who may or may not be ex Stasi or borderline Stasi is intended to show what exactly?  OK so you have friends who are/were East Germans.....and that is supposed to demonstrate what exactly....what is the relevance to patriotism which you maintain Brits don't do?

You said:

"Apart from the few odd ball motley bunch of patriots, white supremacists etc, Brits have never 'done' patriotism!"

.......a comment I find extremely offensive.

 

 

[pepe63xnotuse]

RogerC - 2017-04-12 10:22 PM

...Have you not noticed the thousands of Brits whose names stand so proudly above so many, so very many Commonwealth War Graves headstones?  They were/are true patriots.....please DO NOT soil their memory in your pursuit of an unachievable European idyll...

 

Hi Roger..

...sorry for butting in but you appear to be saying that, once we have been at war with someone, we can then never again forge closer, integrated ties with them...?..and if we do, that would somehow disrespects anyone who had died during the previous conflict(s)... ?

 

The English were "at war" with the Welsh and the Scots for 100s of years....so by the above logic, by coming together and becoming "Great Britain" have we somehow then "soiled" the memory of all of those that fell during those conflicts....?

 

:-S

 

("Patriotism"- ..I've never been in the forces but I've worked closely with a few who have(and also lived next door to a lad who ended up doing several tours in Helmand')..and knowing them quite well,and by their own admission , they certainly wouldn't have been in the forces because of "Patriotism"... The one chap openly admittedly, that it was either the army or prison for him.. :-S )

[Barryd999]

Yep, and the USA. We are the only nation ever to have tried to blow up the White House. :D I think we should have another go.

[Bulletguy]

RogerC - 2017-04-13 1:04 PM

......I simply said littering your post with names provided by former East Germans who may or may not be ex Stasi or borderline Stasi is intended to show what exactly?

My point was you jump to way too many speculative comments Roger. Fwiw i first learned about Sophie Scholl through a German man whos lived his entire life in West Germany. DDR never even existed at that time.If you find my comments "extremely offensive" then maybe forums are not for you....unless you want to shut down freedom of expression you don't like. I will ignore the threat made accusing me of libel in the other thread and will not be responding to that at all.

[RogerC]

pepe63 - 2017-04-13 3:15 PM

RogerC - 2017-04-12 10:22 PM...Have you not noticed the thousands of Brits whose names stand so proudly above so many, so very many Commonwealth War Graves headstones?  They were/are true patriots.....please DO NOT soil their memory in your pursuit of an unachievable European idyll...

Hi Roger.....sorry for butting in but you appear to be saying that, once we have been at war with someone, we can then never again forge closer, integrated ties with them...?..and if we do, that would somehow disrespects anyone who had died during the previous conflict(s)... ?The English were "at war" with the Welsh and the Scots for 100s of years....so by the above logic, by coming together and becoming "Great Britain" have we somehow then "soiled" the memory of all of those that fell during those conflicts....? :-S ("Patriotism"- ..I've never been in the forces but I've worked closely with a few who have(and also lived next door to a lad who ended up doing several tours in Helmand')..and knowing them quite well,and by their own admission , they certainly wouldn't have been in the forces because of "Patriotism"... The one chap openly admittedly, that it was either the army or prison for him.. :-S )

True that some do it for reasons other than a sense of duty however a great many do see it as their 'duty' especially amongst the officer cadre so yes I am fully aware that that is the case.

With regard to not forging friendships with former enemies I have not once suggested that is or should be the case.  My defence of those patriots who served and of those who made the ultimate sacrifice in a fight that (at least for the two WW) was not of their making is because BG said:

quote.....Apart from the few odd ball motley bunch of patriots, white supremacists etc, Brits have never 'done' patriotism! unquote.

quote.....you and i have very different ideas about who really fought for freedoms we enjoy today,....unquote.

Given his admitted respect for European countries partisans but his clearly uncharitable opinion of 'Brits' I find his comments highly offensive.

He then goes on about partisans etc and accuses those who voted 'out' of wanting to disregard those freedoms they fought for.  He uses terms such as 'political subversives' and other inflammatory statements such as 'repression'....'mount barricades' etc etc which clearly come from his mind as I have yet to read such statements from any who voted 'out'.

So thank's for as you say 'butting in', I appreciate the opportunity to (hopefully) clear up a misunderstanding.