colin Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 Keithl - 2017-08-07 12:09 PM euroserv - 2017-08-07 11:38 AM I do wonder how vehicles with electric/automatic parking brakes get away with not being able to function as an emergency brake? Nick, To the best of my knowledge they still do. You simply hold the switch in the 'On' position and it is applied as an emergency brake. Well at least those that I have tried do! Keith. PS I tried reading the Construction & Use Regs at the start of this thread and my best interpretation was that if the vehicle had a 'split' braking system then the 'Parking Brake' was not required to function as an emergency brake! That came as a surprise to me and if it is truly correct then why does the MOT test still include it? The inclusion of split braking circuits doesn't exclude the need for two means of applying brakes. if you read the regs, it's ,a+b, or c, not a or b or c. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 Whenever I have had brake failure in the past, not for many years it must be said but these events tend to stivk in the memory, it has usually been when you need them most, either at speed or on a steep or long downhill and for that purpose the parking brake on countless vans is unfit for purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevina Posted August 7, 2017 Author Share Posted August 7, 2017 Quick Update. I've just popped in to the garage, they've fitted another brand of shoe (TRW) but it's made no difference. I asked for a copy of the mot fail brake test printout but apparently these aren't kept anymore since the new computerised system came in. They know that the brake is totally unsatisfactory and are going to go through it all again. The new service manager worked at the Cornwall Fiat Pro dealers until recently and has been phoning ex colleagues for advice but the word is that Ducato handbrakes are difficult. I spoke to the mechanic involved and I know he is adjusting them correctly from what he said. I made it clear I'm not buying anything about other parts of the braking system being responsible as the handbrake was "fine" before the test fail (I couldn't pull away in first or reverse and the van "hove-up" or down equally). In hindsight I wish I'd just taken it away after the fail and driven it around a bit with the brake lightly on which is my advice to anyone who gets a handbrake fail on their van. A half price retest is nothing! I'm prepared to go with them for now as I don't need the van and I don't see any alternative course of action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Keithl - 2017-08-07 12:09 PM euroserv - 2017-08-07 11:38 AM I do wonder how vehicles with electric/automatic parking brakes get away with not being able to function as an emergency brake? Nick, To the best of my knowledge they still do. You simply hold the switch in the 'On' position and it is applied as an emergency brake. Well at least those that I have tried do! Keith. PS I tried reading the Construction & Use Regs at the start of this thread and my best interpretation was that if the vehicle had a 'split' braking system then the 'Parking Brake' was not required to function as an emergency brake! That came as a surprise to me and if it is truly correct then why does the MOT test still include it? Sections 3.1, 3.7 and 3.8 of the MOT Inspection Manual https://www.mot-testing.service.gov.uk/documents/manuals/m4i00000101.htm are relevant here as they indicate what types of parking brake system are acceptable under UK regulations, plus the methods used to carry out brake performance-testing. Testing the parking brake using the roller-brake or decelerometer method has the potential to cause overheating. The ‘gradient test’ (where the parking brake needs to hold the vehicle on a 16% slope) will not cause overheating, but this testing method will not normally be employed. As I suggested above, kevina’s motorhome’s handbrake being OK before the MOT test but not afterwards suggests that the MOT test was a contributory factor in the reduction in braking performance. As I understand it, the rear disks were replaced relatively recently and (presumably) the state of the parking-brake drums would have been checked when the TRW shoes were fitted. New brake shoes will need bedding in before maximum braking performance is attained. This is likely to have happened by the time a vehicle becomes due for MOT (particularly if a driver is using a ‘drum cleaning’ technique), but fitting brand new shoes and then immediately MOT testing a vehicle’s parking brake’s efficiency may not be the greatest of ideas. I’ve owned cars with drum rear brakes where it was easy to lock both rear wheels on dry roads using the handbrake, but that’s never going to happen with the type of ’drum-in-disc'’ arrangement fitted to Ducato. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Is it possible that they're not adjusting the shoes internally with the knurled expanding nut (Nick will know the proper name for it) between the shoes? You have to prod it with a screwdriver through one of the stud holes in the drum. It's a case of re-assemble the brakes making sure the shoe expander from the cable is assembled correctly, apply the handbrake & release, adjust the knurled expanding bolt (with screwdriver, v fiddly) until the wheel locks. Apply the handbrake again then release, then adjust the knurled expander so that the hub just turns freely. Do both sides then adjust the handbrake cable so that it is fully engaged at 5 clicks. Hope this helps, it works for me. Mike P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 This 2011 forum thread may be of interest http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/FIAT-X2-50-Handbrake-Adjustment/25588/ Peter James’s posting of 17 November 2011 5:45 PM on that thread includes attachments to downloadable MS Word documents describing (with drawings) the adjustment procedures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul2 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Hi For the mot you only require 16% on the Parking brake when you have a dual line master cyclinder. Before I retired we had Technical Service Bulletin for Peugeot Boxer 3 parking brake adjustment because clearly so many people were adjusting it incorrectly. On my fiat x250 (I am first owner) the parking did not feel good when I adjusted the rear shoes the one side when up a click or two the other side was backed fully off (don't know if this was from fiat, adria or the dealer) I then adjusted the cables as the per TSB and the parking brake now feels fine. The TSB reads a bit different to the link Derek has posted it says slacken rear cable off, (remove rear wheels, ease rear pads from discs) adjust shoes, adjust front cable so lever is just on stop, then pull parking brake lever on to the 6th notch then tighten rear adjuster nut to 15nm, operate parking brake, pull lever on to 6th notch retighten the rear adjuster nut to 15nm. Refit wheels try brakes, road test vehicle. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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