Gaslow Refillable Cylinders

[david lloyd]

Hi breakaleg

 

As someone else has said, I don't think there is a regulation stopping you from running the pipes outside the gas locker. My system was fitted by Steve Wise at Autogas 2000 in Thirsk. His primary work is fitting lpg conversions to power vehicles and they have fillers mounted in all sorts of places. He routed the pipe from the filler on the side skirt (they are very substantial skirts on the Sun Ti!) through the floor where there are already vents to let any escape of gas out.

 

If you take care with the locker door you should minimise any potential problems though.

 

 

Basil

 

And if I recall correctly.... Gaslow will exchange the fifteen year old cylinders free of charge so there could be another fifteen years on top of that!!

 

Ralph

 

We haven't had any difficulties in filling the cylinders but I dare say if you tried to take one out of the locker and fill it on the forecourt it would raise some eyebrowsd!!

 

Best regards, David

[Basil]

Hello David L,

 

Gaslow have only said that the cylinders need to be exchanged at 15 years from the date stamped on the collar and will be at an 'Exchange' price that I have not as yet found out. By the time that comes we will be quids in anyway so if I had to pay full price I could not complain (don't tell them that though) but I would hope that as they were purchased in the first instance a reasonable exchange price will be arrived at, especially as if there was no damage, after inspection they would probably be recycled as further exchange cylinders probably with a change of filling stop valve and take off fittings I would suspect!

 

Bas

[ned]

Hi

 

Just a point. When you fill up on the continent you must accept that you might not be filling 100% propane gas. Some suppliers mix the propane with butane so beware if you are going to use it in extreme cold conditions i.e -12 degs and below. As it gets colder the gas gets 'Sleepy' and wont give as good a hot flame as you would expect in warmer conditions.

[Brian Kirby]

ned - 2007-01-09 8:58 PM Hi Just a point. When you fill up on the continent you must accept that you might not be filling 100% propane gas. Some suppliers mix the propane with butane so beware if you are going to use it in extreme cold conditions i.e -12 degs and below. As it gets colder the gas gets 'Sleepy' and wont give as good a hot flame as you would expect in warmer conditions.

Autogas is a mix of propane and butane.  The mix varies across countries, and at different times of the year, normally with a higher propane content in winter, colder countries. 

At lower temperatures the butane won't gas, so accumulates in the cylinder until it gets warm enough to gas, while just the propane gases off.  This can cause problems if staying in colder areas for prolonged periods, as the accumulating butane can critically restrict cylinder capacity.

[Terrytraveller]

More on Brians observations of butane not gassing off after trips to Europe (40% to 70% Butane contamination?), reducing 'in winter' the Gaslow useable capacity.

 

When the MH is parked up on my drive and not in use, my solution is to;-

 

1. light the Truma convector fire and then remove the AA ignition battery from its box and let the fire run until the gas is exhausted. If the weather goes below freezing and the lpg stops gassing, the flame cutout will close, effectively cutting off the gas supply.

 

2. Providing its warm enough to gas off, cook a couple of dinners in the oven to use the butane up.

 

NB - it is possible and easy to remove the single AA ignition battery from the Truma convector fire without taking the cover off.

 

Regards Terry

 

 

[Basil]

Hello All,

 

Just a point on the mixed gas from Europe, I have to say we have filled up a lot and we have so far not experienced this 'problem' of the gas not burning off. I totally accept and understand the reasons why it could happen and I have read one thread where someone had a problem that they were unable to refill with sufficient quantities that may or may not have been caused by this problem but either we run our heater etc. sufficiently in a high enough temperature that it burns off or in practice it does not always happen.

Just how often are we actually using the gas in temperatures low enough to cause this problem without them rising sufficiently to allow at least some of the Butane to gas off with the propane?

 

Bas

[Brian Kirby]

Basil - 2007-01-11 4:07 PM Hello All, Just a point on the mixed gas from Europe, I have to say we have filled up a lot and we have so far not experienced this 'problem' of the gas not burning off. I totally accept and understand the reasons why it could happen and I have read one thread where someone had a problem that they were unable to refill with sufficient quantities that may or may not have been caused by this problem but either we run our heater etc. sufficiently in a high enough temperature that it burns off or in practice it does not always happen. Just how often are we actually using the gas in temperatures low enough to cause this problem without them rising sufficiently to allow at least some of the Butane to gas off with the propane? Bas

Basil

This is not a reason to avoid autogas, it is just something to be aware of if you are likely to visit areas where very low temperatures are likely.  In normal winters this would include the Alps at higher altitudes where -15C and below are quite normal at night and daytime temperatures frequently stay below 0C.  If your gas locker is on the sunny side, OK, if not good luck!

I'm glad you haven't had a problem with this.  However, that alone won't guarantee that you never experience it, and it won't guarantee someone else won't. 

Incidentally, the two gases have slightly different densities, so will tend to separate out with the propane on top. 

Both boil as they gas, but when the temperature drops below the butane boiling point, it will remain liquid even, I believe, at atmospheric pressure.  There can, as I understand it, be no question of the butane gassing with the propane when below its boiling point. 

When the propane has all gassed, you are left with liquid butane in the cylinder, but will think the gas has run out.  You thus refill, taking on more butane with the propane.  This process will repeat until either the temperature of the gas rises above the butane boiling point, or the cylinder reaches 80% full of liquid butane, at which no more gas can be added, and you start getting cold!

[Basil]

Hi Brian,

 

As I have already stated I do fully understand the situation, I have worked within the gas industry for 40 years including working with LNG, and am a qualified Tech Eng. Still its all good information for those that are unaware.

 

Thank you for being glad that we have not had any problem, and I was not suggesting that others haven't or won't, in fact I reffered to one that I had read of in my previous post.

I was just observing that we have had refillables for over 2 years, nearly 3, and filled up all over Europe and used the gas in all temperatures thus far we have not experienced any problems.

 

 

Bas

[Brian Kirby]

Bas

Apologies, no personal attack was intended.

However, I felt that others, possibly less aware of the facts than you, just might draw the conclusion that your "this hasn't happened to us" post, might mean the warning was misplaced or overstated.

I have no first hand experience of autogas use, but have read several cautionary accounts of the situation I described in a French magazine, where motorhomers recounted their Alpine winter sporting experiences.

[Basil]

Hey Brian,

 

That's ok no apology necessary, sorry if I appeared to be fishing for one, that was not intentional just trying to add to the debate! I can also see how my post could have been read the wrong way, thank you for pointing that out and clarifying your response, I'll try harder next time! B-) B-)

I am surprised that we have not, as yet, had this problem occur as others have and was also commenting that I did not know the reason why we haven’t. If there was something that I could have directed people to I would have been pleased, but I don’t really know why it hasn’t happened to us, i can definately see the probability!

 

Regards Bas

[Brian Kirby]

Global warming!!

[Clive]

Electric Blanket!

[peejay]

Just to stick in my tuppence worth as you do.

 

In 2004 In our last van we had a few weeks down in Bavaria. Temperatures regularly down to -15c overnight and we used the heating on gas for the whole holiday. We had one gaslow 6kg and one 6kg calor for back up.

The gaslow was filled in UK (100% propane ?) before departure and took about 10ltrs.

We let it run out each time before refilling, using the calor in between.

It was refilled 3 times whilst down there and each time the amount we could get in gradually reduced, on the third refill it took 7 ltrs. This seems to concur with a recent post on the motorhomelist stating that the propane/butane ratio in Germany is around a 90/10 ratio.

Nothing to worry about unless you are spending extended periods in these conditions and even less so if you have bigger bottles, although some other Alpine countries don't have such a healthy propane/butane ratio. France being quite bad if I remember correctly.

 

We now have a Hymervan with 2x 11kg gaslows in a heated locker, bliss, as long as the regulator doesn't fail, but thats another story!

 

pete

 

 

 

[Terrytraveller]

Hi Pete,

 

How are you heating your gas locker?, did you modifiy yourself. I have been thinking along those lines by extending the blown air into the gas locker, perhaps entering the locker at the top. Assuming that any free gas will drop downwards towards the existing dropper in the locker, there should be no danger. Fitting a lightly sprung hinged plate to the hot air outlet in the locker could also be incorporated, so that the outlet is sealed when the blown air is not on.

 

I too noticed that after the first filling of nearly 24 ltrs ( 2x 6Kg Gaslow), the quantity of gas I could get into a cylinder was reducing, for example the second fill in Holland on one empty? 6Kg cylinder was only 8.7 ltrs. Now I wonder whether the delivery pressure at the pump might have something to do with it?

 

I know I had kittens on the first fill because it didn't look as though the pump was going to stop!! I did check that I was getting gas and not liquid out of the cylinders before connecting up the regulators.

 

I have found even in temperatures of +5c to +10c the near empty gas cylinder will not gas off enough to keep an oven going, but enough to keep a truma convector going on a single burner.

 

As soon as I have refilled the cylinder with Autogas, I will post the results.

 

Regards Terry

[peejay]

Hi Terry.

 

On the Hymervan the gas locker is actually in the rear garage and the access doors are also in the garage. The garage itself is heated with a blown air outlet from the truma combi and stays toasty warm. The overall temp in the garage should be enough to keep the gas locker well above freezing. I'm testing it out properly in February with a trip to Alpine areas and if the temperature does drop in the gas locker i'll just leave the doors ajar overnight.

 

On my last van (A/Sleeper nuevo) after the holiday I mentioned, I had a similar mod done by the assc @ Willersey to that you're proposing. They fitted a T piece in the blown air pipe under the settee next to the gas locker and took a feed up to the top of the locker, drilling a hole through and fitting a butterfly flap.

I'm sure there will be sharp intakes of breath when some read about this modification, there was on here and another forum when I initially asked about the feasibility of it all because the locker is then unsealed from the interior and there is theoretically a remote possibility that a spark could get from the truma along the pipe and into the gas locker but I was happy about it and as I said, Autosleeper also drilled the hole in the locker for me when it was in for service (free!). It would also be a very simple diy job as well.

Worked perfectly on the next winter trip with the locker remaining lovely and warm even with the buterfly flap nearly closed (we always leave the gas heating on low ovenight in these conditions) with no reductions in gas bottle capacity as the butane was also burning off.

 

 

pete.

[Terrytraveller]

Peter - Thanks for the info.

 

I have some hot air ducting passing alongside the gas locker, inside under the sofa on its way to the driver cab, so might do as you did with the Neuvo.

 

On the Autocruise Stargazer there is another blown air take off which terminates on top of the fresh water tank, so keeps that from freezing up.

 

Thanks again - Regards Terry