Derek Uzzell Posted August 14, 2017 Share Posted August 14, 2017 mgnbuk - 2017-08-14 4:07 PM " I have the older style 2-hole cyclinders (as they were cheap), but the level gauges are absolutely useless." I, too, have an earlier type 11kg Gaslow cylinder, but would not describe the gauge as "absolutely useless", or "unreliable" as suggested in other posts... Nigel B The scope of the magnetically-operated contents gauge used on '2-hole' Gaslow cylinders is described in the relevant installation instructions http://www.gaslow.co.uk/pdf/INSTRUC_inside_UK.pdf The gauge’s needle remains at its ‘full’ position in the gauge’s green sector until the liquid-gas contents drop to 50% of the cylinder’s overall capacity. When the needle is halfway across the green sector the cylinder is roughly 40% full. The needle in the yellow sector indicates the cylinder is about 30% full and, when the needle is in the gauge’s red sector, the cylinder has 18% (or less) gas remaining. So the gauge only actually ‘reads’ across a 32% range, from 50% full down to 18% full. This restricted range is pretty much inevitable when the float mechanism that operates the gauge is heavily offset towards the side of the cylinder and the limitation applies similarly to other non-Gaslow 2-hole bottles. Gaslow's R67 cylinders have their float mechanism more centrally located and, as a consequence, the range of the contents gauge is greater, as described here http://www.gaslowdirect.com/Ask-Gaslow/Gaslow-R67-Cylinder-FAQ/Gaslow-R67-Contents-Gauge-readings I would not call the earlier gauge “absolutely useless”, but it’s a lot less informative than the gauge fitted to Gaslow’s R67 canisters and, being magnetically-operated, is less accurate and reliable than the mechanically-operated type of gauge. Regarding the unreliability of the Gaslow cylinder magnetically-operated gauge, it takes little effort to identify on-line comments confirming this (example here) http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Another-Gaslow-query/34195/ Some time prior to the introduction of the R67 cylinders, Gaslow began marketing the 2-hole bottles with no gauge - the float mechanism was still in the bottle, but no gauge was provided. I asked the Gaslow rep why the gauge had been dropped and was told it was because there had been too many complaints about it. In fact, if you ever get the opportunity to see a sectioned Gaslow 2-hole cylinder and a sectioned R67 cylinder and compare the ‘quality’ of the gauge-operating float mechanisms, you’ll see why the early gauges gained their unreliability reputation. It’s well-recognised that ‘autogas’ abroad will normally be a mix of propane and butane, sometimes with the butane content being very predominant, but in the UK received wisdom has been that ‘our’ autogas is 100% propane. This belief was explored here http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Gas-cylinder-refilling/25421/181/ and I refer you to my posting of 6 February 2012 6:53 PM and to the Honest John link http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/lpg-and-cng/ where Mike Chapman of the LPGA commented “...BSI Inspectorate has recently completed independent tests on the quality of the LPG / autogas. These tests were to the European standard BSEN 589 and they reported that all samples tested showed UK gas to be amongst the cleanest in Europe. There have been reports of contamination, and the Association and the gas companies will continue to investigate such cases. In cases where we have been able to isolate the source it has been a problem with the conversion equipment fitted to the vehicle and not the gas. As regards the mix of butane and propane, here again the correspondent is incorrect. Butane burns hotter than propane(albeit by an academic amount). In the UK the gas is about 95% propane whereas a different proportion is used in countries throughout Europe. This proportion ranges from 30% propane up to the 95% propane in the UK and in some countries the proportion changes seasonally during the year..." As I said then, UK autogas being 95% propane is near-enough all-propane for me where refilling my motorhome’s gas bottles is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 There is a difference in price of butane and propane botlles and all their mixes either refill or non refill. Saw above pictures of gas tubes in black. Propane should have a orange color tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 monique.hubrechts@gm - 2017-08-17 8:16 PM ...Propane should have a orange color tube. That may be so in Belgium and, although it is generally the case in the UK, there are exceptions. The 1st attached photo shows the UK “Flogas” range of butane and propane canisters. In France there is even less gas-container colour standardisation, as should be apparent from the 2nd attached photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboyprowler Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Just by way of interest, our old Gaslow bottle developed a leak where the valve enters the cylinder and Gaslow have collected the cylinder for a free repair, and will courier it back later this week. They will also be offering an exchange service on the old bottles (ours expires June 2019) from the end of this year, through their website. As to home fitting, I am told by the Gaslow agents that you can legally fit from the tank to the regulator, but not beyond. I have invested in a gas leak spray for when I refit the cylinder!! We run with one refillable and one fixed bottle which works well, especially when you get a leak!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancepar Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 A, You have a PM. B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 flyboyprowler - 2017-08-18 12:14 PM ...I am told by the Gaslow agents that you can legally fit from the tank to the regulator, but not beyond... DIY-ing a leisure-vehicle’s gas system is discussed in some detail here http://buildacampervan.com/gas-supply/ For the DIYer the following Question and Answer will be relevant Question: Can a non Gas Safe registered person install any part of a gas system? Answer: A person can undertake their own gas work within their own vehicle providing that campervan is not intended to be hired out. If the vehicle is intended to be hired out, then the person/business undertaking that work must be registered with Gas Safe Register and be suitably qualified to do that work. Even though registration in some cases is not a requirement the person undertaking that work must be competent to do that work. In essence a non registered person would do what a registered engineer would do when installing and testing the gas installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 I have never relied on any indicators or guages for any thing in a van, fresh water, used water or gas as they are notoriously unreliable and an unreliable guage is worse than no guage at all in my view. I kept a notebook for gas and wrote in when it was bought or filled and as I know from experience how much gas we used - generally about a litre a day - it was not that hard to work out how long it would last and with a second bottle as backup getting it refilled or replaced as required was never a problem. I certainly would not pay extra for an unreliable guage that was tucked away out of sight in the gas locker. The dashboard guage we had on a built in gas tank was useless as the tank neared empty, which is when you might need it. It was OK when the tank was more than half full which was about as much use as a chocolate teapot! Progress eh - doncha just love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 With a user-refillable gas-bottle system - particularly one that comprises a single opaque metal bottle - it surely makes sense that, when the bottle is fitted with a gauge (and the vast majority of such bottles do have one) it’s better for the gauge to measure as much of the bottle’s potential contents as practicable and to do this accurately. It’s not realy a matter of paying extra for a bottle with an unreliable/limited-range gauge, it’s the benefits of paying a bit extra for a reliable/‘full range' gauge. The mechanically-operated gauges fitted to user-refillable gas-bottles have never had a reputation for being “notoriously unreliable” - in fact quite the opposite. It really comes down to buyers of user-refillable gas systems being aware that why one system may be cheaper than another is because the former is less technically advanced than the latter. (I know roughly the mpg of my car, which means I could estimate how many miles I could drive between petrol-tank refills, but why should I feel a need to estimate when the car has an accurate fuel gauge?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 Derek Uzzell - 2017-08-19 9:08 AM (I know roughly the mpg of my car, which means I could estimate how many miles I could drive between petrol-tank refills, but why should I feel a need to estimate when the car has an accurate fuel gauge?) Mine too! Although it would take a braver man than me to totally rely on the fuel gauge and not fill up until well into the red sector and I could just as easily guestimate when to fill up based on the miles covered, so I tend to fill up when the gauge shows quarter full. Similarly it takes a brave man to rely on any motorhome gauge which from my limited experience are far less accurate than any car fuel gauge and even they vary from car to car let alone from make to make. I hear what is said about gauges but if I were still vanning I would not change my method as it has worked for me and we have never run out of gas in many years. It you fill a small capacity gas bottle when the gauge shows quarter you may well be filling up more often which is fine if you enjoy the refilling process so our way was to run the refillable to empty, then use the back up bottle, then refill as soon as convenient, so a gauge was of no value, especially hidden away in the gas locker, except to tell me what I already knew! Oh yes, we did run out of gas once, many years ago when I left both bottles connected and turned on to a dual system by mistake. I never did it again as I do try hard not to make the same mistake twice whilst there are still so many new ones to make! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 Tracker - 2017-08-19 11:09 AM....................so our way was to run the refillable to empty, then use the back up bottle, then refill as soon as convenient, ................ Ah ha Clouseau! But 'ow did you know ze full of ze back up? !! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 Brian Kirby - 2017-08-19 4:01 PM Tracker - 2017-08-19 11:09 AM....................so our way was to run the refillable to empty, then use the back up bottle, then refill as soon as convenient, ................ Ah ha Clouseau! But 'ow did you know ze full of ze back up? !! :-D Ah so me old fruitcake, because I kept a record of how many days I had used the backup and when it got low, depending on what side of the ditch we were going to or in and how long we were going for, I either fitted a full spare or ran the original spare to empty using the refillable as a backup, such were the joys of having 3 Calor lites and a refillable - I am not always as daft as I looks yer know!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 Tracker - 2017-08-19 5:37 PM................ I am not always as daft as I looks yer know!! Says the man dangling a sink plug! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 Brian Kirby - 2017-08-19 6:12 PM Tracker - 2017-08-19 5:37 PM................ I am not always as daft as I looks yer know!! Says the man dangling a sink plug! :-D Have you never heard of plug ins? I was years ahead of my time then, and it was better than getting that sinking feeling when the hotel had a sink but no plug to plug in! It's like carrying a spare wheel you never use, I've not been in a hotel with no sink plug for years - ever since I liberated my own in fact? But I do I accept that I am as daft as I look! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJM Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 I must be crazy then as I have 2 sink plugs one large and one small in my wash bag in case plugs are absent. Years of turning up in different accomodation with sink plugs missing lol :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 Just when I was begining to think I was mad it is such a relief to hear from another plugaholic, maybe I'm not so mad after all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 The policy of running a user-refillable gas-bottle empty and then switching temporarily to a exchange-only ‘back-up’ bottle seems to be predicated on the user-refillable bottle having an untrustworthy contents-level gauge. It’s also (obviously) the case that the policy won’t work if the motorhome has no room for a back-up bottle, or has an extenal gas tank. Now I know it’s difficult to remain focused on a valid motorhome-related enquiry made some 40 postings ago when much more exciting subjects like hotel sink plugs can be discussed, so let’s try to make this simpler. The following link shows a selection of user-refillable gas bottles https://www.autogasshop.co.uk/refillable-motorhome-gas-bottles-20-c.asp These plainly vary in price, but a significant specification difference is that the cheapest “RV 11kg Refillable Gas bottle” at £124.16 has a magnetically-operated contents gauge “...to give an indication of the liquid content in the bottle”, whereas all the other bottles have mechanically-operated gauges. The £147.54 "Prakto Motorhome Refillable 21.0 ltr Steel Gas Bottle” is 4-hole type and "The offset float gauge gives a better reading of the liquid gas contents of the bottle in a reading from 0-80%”. So, for £24 more, a motorcaravanner buying the Prakto bottle gets a higher specification product with an accurate, wider range gauge and can (if necessary or by choice) avoid having to carry a back-up bottle and a pencil and paper to record gas usage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted August 20, 2017 Author Share Posted August 20, 2017 Cheers for that Derek (I like the plug idea)I also like the Prakto Motorhome Refillable 21.0 ltr Steel Gas Bottle, am I right in thinking that I would need a user direct fill connection, a guage and then use the existing hose that goes to my bukhead connection?I will look into this in more detail when I have more time.Def decided to go with the direct fill and not the remote fill with hole in the van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammer Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 We are going to buy a refillable bottle and I think a single 11kg would work for us: lighter and cheaper than a twin bottle system. Does anyone have advise about filters: I will probably buy a gasit system and they have a set of UK and European adaptors with built in dgi filters (preventing contamination from a dirty nozzle etc). Would you recommend an lpg filter for between the bottle and the regulator (I recently had to buy a new regulator and would prefer to pay £30ish for a filter instead of £++ for another regulator if it gets gummed up again. (Any tips for a good prices on gasit systems??) Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Kev As far as I’m aware the outlet of all metal user-refillable gas bottles has a 21.8LH male connection. This type of connection is used on Calor 4.5kg BUTANE bottles (and is the norm for French large steel bottles) but the outlet of a Calor 6kg PROPANE bottle (whicjh I’m guessing you have) has a female POL connection. Consequently, it is not possible to directly connect a hose suitable for a Calor 6kg propane bottle to a metal user-refillable bottle. In order to employ a metal user-refillable bottle with a gas system involving a ‘single feed’ bulkhead-mounted 30mbar regulator and currently using a Calor 6kg propane bottle that would, in future, provide a back-up capability, you might a) Replace your existing POL-connection gas hose with an equivalent with a 21.8LH connection. b) Fit a POL-to-21.8LH adapter to the existing gas hose. The ‘a’ option means that you’d either need to go back to the original hose if you wanted to use the Calor ‘back-up bottle, or fit a 21.8LH-to-POL adapter to the replacement hose. The ‘b’ option means that - to use the Calor bottle - you’d need to remove the POL-to-21.8LH adapter from the hose. The ‘b’ option is the simplest/cheapest and, because it’s likely your 2017 motorhome has a specialised Truma ’safety’ gas hose (with a green button) it’s probably the best way to go. POL-to-21.8LH adapters are readily available (example here) https://gasproducts.co.uk/propane-pol-to-butane-adaptor.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2K64pq_t1QIVE40bCh2ZZw1vEAQYAiABEgIClvD_BwE I don’t think Autogas 2000 market a ‘direct fill’ adapter and, although the inlet fitting on metal user-refillable bottles appears visually identical, this earlier discussion http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Tightening-gas-filler-hoses/46554/ indicates that the fitting’s ‘flare angle’ can differ. The implication is that, if you purchased one make of refillable bottle and another make of direct fill adapter, there might be problems obtaining a gas-tight seal between the bottle’s inlet and the adapter’s outlet The joint is metal-to-metal: there’s no gasket or rubber/fibre seal. If you’ve decided to take the direct-fill approach, the safest policy would be to buy a Gaslow R67 Direct Fill kit http://www.gaslowdirect.com/epages/cyujrhdmmu67.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/cyujrhdmmu67/Categories/Cylinders/Buy_Now that includes the appropriate filling adapter (and an on-bottle propane regulator that you won’t need). You won’t need a gauge, as the bottle has one integrated, but you will need a filling adapter (or adapters) to refill in France, Spain, etc. Gaslow offer these http://www.gaslowdirect.com/epages/cyujrhdmmu67.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/cyujrhdmmu67/Categories/Gaslow_Refillables/Filling_Abroad but you could source them cheaper elsewhere if you so chose. When I visited the Gaslow stand at the last NEC show I noticed that the design of the R67 bottles had been improved so that the outlet was straight not angled and the On/Off valve had a larger easier-to-turn plastic knob. So, if you choose to go Gaslow R67, check before ordering that you’ll be getting the latest design. ................................................................................................................. hammer I don’t know how effective the filter GAS IT It offers is https://www.gasit.co.uk/gas-it-plus-4-part-european-fill-point-adapter-kit.html but it can’t do any harm and it is available separately https://www.gasit.co.uk/gas-it-direct-gas-in-filters-d-g-i.html The GAS IT in-line filter is certified for liquid as well as vapour and, although it may well remove particles, I’m doubtful it would remove the ‘oily residues’ blamed for contaminating regulators. (Years ago I attempted to check this with the manufacturers of this type of filter, but never recieved a response to my questions). Once again, the filters should cause no harm, but the only filter specifically marketed to guard against the contamination problem is marketed by Truma https://www.truma.com/int/en/gas-supply/accessories-gas-pressure-regulators.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sakofox Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 I fitted a Gas-it 2x 6kg system (£350 ish) to directly replace the two standard cal0r system. I fitted the filler in the locker and despite others warning of garages refusing to let you fill, I have had not issues at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 I had my system professionally specified and fitted but to answer the OP's question I don't think there is anything to stop a reasonably handy person fitting his own refillable bottle system, especially if he buys a complete kit. It's only connecting up a few pipes and connectors and it isn't rocket science to cut a hole in the right place to fit an outside-skin autogas filler point. You could then ask a mobile caravan engineer to check the gas system out for you - indeed you could time the installation of you refillables to take the opportunity of a full habitation check and you would still be in pocket overall compared with a professional installation of refillables. Of course if you are not a reasonably handy person steer clear and pay the professional to do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Tracker - 2017-08-10 9:43 AM When I first used a refillable I placed the filler inlet just inside the gas locker in case I decided against after trialling it. At no time did anyone ever question me opening the door to refill so I never did make the hole on the outside. ditto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cervantes Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Like sakofox above, I fitted an 11kg bottle myself last year. I drove to the GAS-IT factory in Caernarvon and the very helpful Darren supplied the bottle and everything else I needed to connect it (plus 3 European adaptors) for £240, then I fitted it in the car park in 90 minutes. I put the filler point in the gas locker (no problems filling so far) as I didn't fancy drilling a hole in the bodywork. There is a more detailed account of fitting on Friday 17/06/2016 on the following blog https://themotorhomeyears.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_96.html If you have the confidence and are reasonable at DIY it is no problem to fit, then get it checked by an expert afterwards if you feel the need to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Cutting a hole in the skirt is no problem is you get one of these for a few quid on EBay to cut the hole in the skirt and that way you be a lot less conspicuous. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-PIECE-HIGH-SPEED-TITANIUM-COATED-STEEL-LARGE-STEP-DRILL-BIT-SET-HOLE-CUTTER/302433961101?epid=2254375721&hash=item466a78048d:g:sBQAAOSwZVlXokpq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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