PJay Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 I bought the September issue of MMM (don't do it often 1) Read about a guy who fitted extra storage boxes , by buying metal tool boxes, and fitting them. , and removing and cutting the side panels , Guess you have read about it Having a simalar Mh, and having had to reduce our weight, I wondered if he has taken the added weight of metal boxes and metal fittings ,into account? Sounds like alot of added weight to me. It mentioned that he had been a caravanner, and missed the extra storage, so perhaps, he is not aware of the issues? We where never told about it when purchasing our first (and only) MH !! PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 We bought our first motorhome (a 1996-built Herald Templar) in 1998 having researched the idea of motorcaravanning for a couple of years. Neither my wife nor I had any caravanning background, but from reading MMM and Which Motorcaravan magazines it soon became apparent to me (my wife delegates ‘technical’ decisions) that maximum overall and axle weights and user-payload should feature high on the list of things to explore before committing to buying a motorhome. As I did not want a Fiat-based model (due to the company’s perceived reputation for poor customer service) I decided to opt for a UK-manufactured Ford-based motorhome. The choice was either Herald or Auto-Sleepers and I was warned that the latter had very restricted payload due to the weight of the GRP body and that even the larger Heralds were marginal in that respect. Eventually I decided on the Templar model bought from a dealership about 40 miles away. The Templar's weight and payload were not mentioned by the dealer when we inspected the motorhome nor later, but they did not need to be because I had already obtained a copy of MMM’s in-depth review of a Templar that provided that information. Out of interest (and because it was free!) I did weigh the Herald eventually and confirmed that - very fully loaded - it was well within its overall (3300kg MAM) and axle-weight maxima. We owned the Herald until 2004, during which time the heater was replaced and I installed a double-size waste-water tank. No heavy ‘accessories’ (awning. tow-bar, etc.) were added - if they had been I would have borne their weight in mind and the effect this would have had on the vehicle’s weight/payload maxima because it’s an obvious thing to do. Doubling up the waste tank capacity significantly increased the potential ‘fully loaded’ weight and rear-axle loading, but as I was aware beforehand what those data were, I knew the replacement tank would not be an issue. The Herald was replaced in 2005 by a new LHD Ford-based Hobby (3500kg MAM) and the motorhome’s weight was never raised by the German dealer from whom I bought the vehicle. I didn’t ask because I already knew and, once again, I had no intention of adding heavy items or opting for an enhanced factory specification. I did weigh the Hobby in loaded state at one stage and, as expected, there was plenty of ‘spare’ weight capacity. The Hobby was replaced in 2015 by our present LHD Rapido 640F (3500kg MAM). By now I had relinquished my C1 driving-licence entitlement, so the 3500kg limit was more important. Weight aspects were never discussed with the vending dealership, but I can’t see why they should have been unless I had enquired about them myself. I’ve fitted a spare-wheel (say 30kg) in the Rapido’s garage, but otherwise the vehicle’s specification remains basic ‘Continental’ (eg. no gas oven) and no heavy accessories have been added. I haven’t weighed the Rapido, but (unless Rapido’s technical documentation is badly wrong or the French factory decided to use lead as insulation in the body panels) I don’t anticipate the brochure-stated weight maxima will be approached, never mind exceeded. Besides which - unlike the Hymer ML-I 580 discussed in another forum thread - a Rapido 640F looks like it won’t weigh more than 3500kg nor exceed its axle-load maxima. A motorhome’s visual appearance provides a reasonable clue to its weights, with large dimensions suggesting heaviness and a long rear overhang suggesting a high rear-axle loading. I equate ‘fully loaded’ as meaning all reservoirs (fuel tank, fresh-water system, waste-water tank and toilet-cassette) full, plus everything we normal carry on our trips, plus everything extra we normally bring back home (ie. food and wine). The chances of the Rapido ever having around 300kg of liquid in its reservoirs are small (though I often travel with full fuel and fresh-water tanks, which is approaching 200kg of liquid) but imagining a worst case scenario gives me a useful idea of the likelihood of a motorhome’s weight maxima being exceeded. Regarding the MMM article, although no weight data are provided, a metal tool-box similar to the one mentioned in the article won’t be very heavy. This link https://usprotoolboxes.com/product-category/job-site-tool-chest-boxes/ quotes 6.7kg for the “1685” product, so 10kg should cover the box, runners and brackets. The Swift Lifestyle 686 seems to be marketed on the heavier 3650kg MAM version of the Fiat Ducato ‘light’ camping-car chassis-cab and Colin Maslen (the MMM article’s author) apparently intends to use the new exterior drawer to store ’stuff’ that is currently carried within his motorhome. Plainly, if he goes further and adds the two or three more drawer-units he has in mind, he’ll need to consider the extra weight of the units themselves. And if he exploits the additional storage capacity to carry more ’stuff’ (rather than transfer it from the motorhome’s interior to the new drawers) he’ll have to be even more careful about weight limits. I would have thought that caravanners, who are (or should be) accustomed to matching caravan weight to towing-vehicle weight and are (or should be) aware of things like ’nose weight’ (whatever that means ;-) ) would be more attuned to the possibility of motorhome weight limitations than motorcaravanning newbies with no caravanning experience. 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Brock Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 We caravanned for five years starting in 1990 before buying our first motorhome in 1995. Caravanning was simple. You either matched your car/caravan weight, loaded your caravan and car correctly with the correct noseweight [downward weight on the tow ball] or you crashed. Not quite true but there was a well informed caravanning fraternity in those days. Modern cars/caravans are different and some of the dangers have been engineered out - perhaps leading to less understanding of the remaining dangers by newer caravanners. Our first new motorhome [to get full seatbelts for the kids] was bought in 1996. I remember Rodney Eyles of Chelston Motorhomes [Middleton Cheney] sitting me down and saying that I could not carry water and 4 bikes on the van because the payload was too small [MAM3200kg]. He gave me a breakdown of how he estimated my load. The Swift catalogues also explained MIRO as I think did Elddis. Twenty years ago a responsible dealer and manufacturer were making their customers aware of payload issues. We read Which Motorhome and Motor Caravan to understand motorhoming before we bought our first van and continued reading the latter for many years. Our first motorhome was within payload tolerance as we didn't carry bikes. Somewhere in the last 20 years sales have become more important than safety. Perhaps advertising space is more important than useful advice. Whilst driver responsibility for the vehicle has not changed, it seems to have become more complicated to stay legal on the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Adding metal boxes can hardly enthuse the next buyer. We never saw a need for any extra storage after living full time in a small caravan for several years following our marriage, so when it came to a M/H the same drill followed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted August 23, 2017 Author Share Posted August 23, 2017 Derek I must re read the article, as I thought I read he intended to fit 5 of these boxes?. 2 one side and 3 the other. I only picked up on it because we had weight issues, but ours was only 3400. , which we have up graded to 3500 now. It was a good idea, as extra outside storage always useful Think it is still worrying that salesmen do not mention weight. We never gave it a thought at the time of buying ours. How many of us worry about what we carry in the boot of our car? i know when we had an estate car, we helped son carry several large floor tiles, along some small roads in Yorkshire, and the back was a long way down on the springs!! ( mind you it may have been my weight in the back as well!! P Incidentally we only found we had a weight issue , when the MOT was done in 2016, as they now weight as part of MOT. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firedecisions Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 An interesting article as I was thinking of a couple of extra boxes, Elddis Majestic175, having weighed it on weigh bridge etc, still have quite a few Killos spare , but my concern from this article are;. drilling holes through floor when still under warranty (have had enough problems with damp as it is) but main concern is the handles which appear to be proud of the body of the motorhome, not sure that it will pass its first MOT with those sticking out as they will present a hazard to any pedestrian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 The UK’s MOT test involves checking items specifically referred to in the appropriate Inspection Manual. The Manual for Class 4 vehicles (eg. motorhomes) is accessible on-line https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/611019/mot-inspection-manual-classes-3-4-5-and-7.pdf and I assume Section 6.1 would be relevant where modifications to a vehicle had been made resulting in extra protrusions from its body sides like the T-handles chosen for the sliding storage drawer. I can’t say I care for the MMM article author’s choice of handles, not so much because they stick out (4 inches?) but because I think they look unsightly. I’m doubtful that the handles’ potential to injure a pedestrian would provoke an MOT inspector to reject the vehicle, as there does not seem to be anything in the Inspection Manual to provide a credible reason for rejection in the handles’ case. It’s well recognised that a vehicle can pass the MOT test despite being illegal. This is mentioned here https://www.motoringassist.com/motoring-advice/car-maintenance/wary-killer-modifications/ and there are plenty of motorhomes annually sailing through the MOT test despite having ‘illegal’ speedometers and headlamps. The MMM article refers to a Yorkshire company offering sliding skirt-lockers for motorhomes for £700. This will be JH Caravan and their “Genie Drawers” are shown here https://www.jhcaravan.com/index.php/2/ It will be apparent that the Genie Drawer handles when closed will protrude only a short distance and be unobtrusive, and this is also so when skirt-lockers are fitted as standard to motorhomes (example photo attached). Such handles are readily available, but Colin Maslen wanted T-handles and the ones he chose are undoubtedly more robust than the common-or-garden plastic variety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinM50 Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Fame at last. I am indeed the Colin Maslen referred to by the OP and am really pleased to have provoked some thought from you all. A couple of points, firstly it was somewhere to put wet wellies and camping chairs that initiated the idea in the first place. In our Swift Lifestyle the only choice of what to do with them was either "upstairs in the bedroom" or in the bathroom, neither are a sensible place and in our previous caravans we'd had loads of outside storage which started the whole process off. Secondly whilst I did intend/plan to put in additional drawers, the reality is we swapped the Lifestyle for an Elddis Magnum in Spring this year, so the Swift only has the one drawer and I don't have the same storage issue with the Magnum. On to the weight question, these are fairly lightweight tool boxes and as someone else said, a total weight gain of c10Kg is hardly going to break the bank I'd have thought. To be honest, I didn't think about the weight issue at the time I made them, but they really are light galvanised steel weighing 5Kg, I know I've just weighed one of the spare boxes I've got. To put this in context, my wellies weigh 3 kilos so I don't think we should get hung up on this. Re the handles, never gave much thought about them protruding, they stick out a whole 1.5 inches (I know, just been to measure on of the spares I've got)_and if I get close enough to another person or vehicle that they become an issue then yes, you're right, maybe I'd consider changing them. I will say how hard I found it the get hold of good quality handles that positively locked and were obviously locked and available in the sort of quantities I wanted. Anyway, glad you all enjoyed the article, got another couple in progress. Any questions, please ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted August 24, 2017 Author Share Posted August 24, 2017 ColinM50 - 2017-08-24 10:52 AM Fame at last. I am indeed the Colin Maslen referred to by the OP and am really pleased to have provoked some thought from you all. A couple of points, firstly it was somewhere to put wet wellies and camping chairs that initiated the idea in the first place. In our Swift Lifestyle the only choice of what to do with them was either "upstairs in the bedroom" or in the bathroom, neither are a sensible place and in our previous caravans we'd had loads of outside storage which started the whole process off. Secondly whilst I did intend/plan to put in additional drawers, the reality is we swapped the Lifestyle for an Elddis Magnum in Spring this year, so the Swift only has the one drawer and I don't have the same storage issue with the Magnum. On to the weight question, these are fairly lightweight tool boxes and as someone else said, a total weight gain of c10Kg is hardly going to break the bank I'd have thought. To be honest, I didn't think about the weight issue at the time I made them, but they really are light galvanised steel weighing 5Kg, I know I've just weighed one of the spare boxes I've got. To put this in context, my wellies weigh 3 kilos so I don't think we should get hung up on this. Re the handles, never gave much thought about them protruding, they stick out a whole 1.5 inches (I know, just been to measure on of the spares I've got)_and if I get close enough to another person or vehicle that they become an issue then yes, you're right, maybe I'd consider changing them. I will say how hard I found it the get hold of good quality handles that positively locked and were obviously locked and available in the sort of quantities I wanted. Anyway, glad you all enjoyed the article, got another couple in progress. Any questions, please ask. Hi Colin Since I was the one who started this thread, thanks for the explanation. It was a good idea, but as we have a lifestyle , be it not the same as yours, and had Weight issues. and i assumed you had put 5 boxes in, it did make me think!! We had a back box on the bike rack(don't have bikes) to carry all that stuff, and our van was not cluttered inside We have now replaced the box, with a lightweight bag, to take the chairs and table, and maybe anything else, when we get it on!! Oh we don't wellies either!! As you have changed your van, I guess your first choice was not the right one, for you. So I hope others, who are contemplating changing from a caravan, read your article. I don't often buy MM, so it was interesting to read your article, be it obviously outdated due to you selling van Pauline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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