Autogas in France and Spain

[TrevorT]

We have a Gaslow system installed in our motorhome. We successfully used a similar system in France during the summer in 2015. We are now planning a trip through France to Spain this winter.

 

I have come across forum posts (not necessarily this forum) suggesting users of Gaslow/Gasit type systems in motorhomes were being turned away from petrol stations. Many of the posts were old, but at least one seemed to be very recent.

 

So my first question is:

Have any users of autogas on this forum recently returned from Spain or France, or are you even currently there? If so have you been able to fill up when you wanted to? Have you been refused gas?

 

 

Spanish autogas seems to have a high percentage of Butane in it. Local spanish bottles have 100% butane in them. I was hoping that cylinders in a gas bottle locker surrounded by the heated motorhome would remain warm enough for butane to evaporate even in winter, particularly since one of our Alde heater heating pipes runs through the bottom of the gas bottle locker.

 

So my second question is:

Has anyone experience of running on European gas with a higher (or 100%) Butane content in cold weather? Does it continue to provide gas in cold weather when the cylinder is in a gas bottle locker?

 

We tend to use camperstops/aires etc rather than formal campsites and are more reliant on the gas system than we might be if we were routinely using campsite EHU's. Hence the questions!

 

[Gwendolyn]

We are in France now. Filled our Gaslow system 2 days ago with no problem.

Last filled up in Spain last December. No problems there either.

 

[Charles]

This is handy chart:

 

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-butane-mix-d_1043.html

 

A 30% propane 70% butane mix is still at 2psi at - 17c. I'm sure I've seen somewhere that the Repsol garages in Spain have these percentage mixes.

[Derek Uzzell]

Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums, Trevor.

 

This link lists LPG stations in Spain

 

https://www.mylpg.eu/stations/spain/list

 

and (where the datum is provided) the lowest percentage of propane in a propane/butane autogas ‘mixture’ seems to be 35%.

 

It has been authoratively stated on UK motorhome forums in the past that, when a butane/propane autogas mixture is used at low temperatures, the propane component will vaporise separately from the butane and, eventually, the gas reservoir will just contain 100% butane. This is not the case - the more butane there is in the mixture the higher the temperature needed to allow the mixture to vaporise, but it’s the mixture of the two gasses that vaporises, not each gas independently. A 35% propane/65% butane mixture should for motorhome purposes (eg. running a powerful gas-hungry heater) vaporise adequately at 0°C ambient, though you’d be unwise to use 100% butane at that temperature.

 

Regarding Spanish gas bottles, although butane bottles are readily available, propane bottles (11kg) can also be obtained. This discussion refers

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Replacement-gas-bottles-in-Spain/46114/

 

I’ve never been to Spain, but I’ve employed French autogas (that also has a high butane content) for motorhome use in frosty weather and not experienced any problems. There’s no doubt though that using an autogas mixture with a high butane content will become problematical in REALLY cold weather conditions if the gas reservoir cannot be warmed. This is recognised in France and Borel markets a ‘thermal slipper’ (chausson thermique) that encloses the base of a gas-bottle and is connected to the motorhome’s air-heating system.

 

http://www.borel.fr/homegaz/

 

Your Alde system’s water heating pipe running through the gas-locker’s bottom might well perform a similar function if you chose to use Spanish (or French) 100% butane gas bottles, but if the weather were cold enough to prevent the butane vaporising, how would the Alde system heat the locker? ;-)

 

I’ve been using a user-refillable gas-bottle in my motorhomes since Year 2000 and I’ve never been prevented from refilling it (either in the UK or in France) but I’ve always DIY-ed the refilling process. But I can believe that, if a motorcaravanner faffs about at an autogas pump or asks for assistance from the service-station personnel or refilling involves the service-staion personnel doing it, there might be problems. If you’ve had no difficulty refilling your gas reservoir in France in 2015, I don’t see why you should hit problems now.

 

(I guess it’s worth adding that, for refilling in Spain, a “Euroconnector” is needed)

 

https://www.mylpg.eu/adapters

[mildi]

We live in France and own a little campsite, we send people to our local Leclerc supermarket if like us they have Gaslow etc and no one has had any problem filling with gas but sometimes they come to look to see what I am filling and say that it is OK.

[starvin marvin]

Hi there, I have 1 refillable cylinder, Gaslow and 1 exchange cylinder, Repsol propane. Repsol mark their propane cylinders with a black band around the cylinder. These are much easier to find in northern Spain for obvious reasons. We find this combination gives us choice.

 

We use the refillable as we drive down through France, and refill just before we cross into Spain. We then switch to the Repsol bottle as we free camp around the place. The Repsol lasts approx 3 weeks. We then switch back to the refillable until we do an exchange at around 11euros! excellent value.

 

We have never experienced any difficulties refilling our bottle, there are less stations selling GPL in Spain than France. Plus the Spanish are so much more helpful than the French, IMO. Spain, outside of the big cities runs on bottled gas, I often buy an exchange from a gas delivery driver, some also often call at known free camping spots for some additional custom! I rest my case.

[Barryd999]

Refusals in France do happen but are very rare. It's best if you have a filler on the side dont have to have to mess on opening gas lockers but not essential. I've had two or three forecourt attendants come out to see what I was doing and one or two that have refused but when I inisisted it was autogas :D backed down but it's very rare.

[TrevorT]

Many thanks for all of the helpful and informative responses to my questions.

 

I am reassured now. I have no expectation of problems filling the system. My gut feeling was that a filler on the side reassured onlookers that it was an installed "pucker" system.

 

Also the information that the gas does mix and the boiling temperature is lowered is most reassuring. I had read that thread where it was claimed that you ended up with a tank of butane when all the propane had evaporated off.

 

I think we will just go with the system as it is. After all the whole idea was to be able to get gas in any country without messing about with different types of refillable bottles. I will let you know if it all works as planned when we get back - sometime in February!

[Charles]

TrevorT - 2017-09-18 9:14 AM

 

 

Also the information that the gas does mix and the boiling temperature is lowered is most reassuring. I had read that thread where it was claimed that you ended up with a tank of butane when all the propane had evaporated off.

 

It must be an Azeotropic blend rather than Zeotropic B-)

[starvin marvin]

TrevorT - 2017-09-18 9:14 AM

 

Many thanks for all of the helpful and informative responses to my questions.

 

I am reassured now. I have no expectation of problems filling the system. My gut feeling was that a filler on the side reassured onlookers that it was an installed "pucker" system.

 

Also the information that the gas does mix and the boiling temperature is lowered is most reassuring. I had read that thread where it was claimed that you ended up with a tank of butane when all the propane had evaporated off.

 

I think we will just go with the system as it is. After all the whole idea was to be able to get gas in any country without messing about with different types of refillable bottles. I will let you know if it all works as planned when we get back - sometime in February!

 

This is not a criticism, just an observation. Having different gas systems gives you choice, rather than relying on one method of resupply. You may just be overthinking the problem.

 

Our two bottles give us 6 weeks of gas, in that time we are very likely to have no problems in obtaining gas.

I also have at home a German cylinder and a Calor which for us, covers just about all bases.

 

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

You said it all. I will never go to a refill system. i love bottles 100 procent propane BP light version in 10- 7.5-5 kg version. And fit for the proposed trip. I do not like underslung gas tanks and piping and all the hassle of the filler connection station and not sure of you pay for KO gas in their butane- propane mix correctly seeing the pound degrade. See you somewhere at the continent and have a nice chap.

[Keith T]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2017-09-18 5:51 PM

 

You said it all. I will never go to a refill system. i love bottles 100 procent propane BP light version in 10- 7.5-5 kg version. And fit for the proposed trip. I do not like underslung gas tanks and piping and all the hassle of the filler connection station and not sure of you pay for KO gas in their butane- propane mix correctly seeing the pound degrade. See you somewhere at the continent and have a nice chap.

 

Having just changed to a new PVC I would have preferred to have Calor bottles, however Autotrail choose to fit an underslung gas tax, no options. It supposedly does have a turn off tap on the cylinder, but as yet I haven't found it, and even if I could see it I don't think I could reach it.

 

The two benefits of a fixed tank are of course space and weight saving,

[keninpalamos]

I use a Repsol exchange bottle in Spain. Propane being about 11.50€ & Butane a couple of € more which lasts a bit longer and gives a better "burn" As I spend a month or more around Palamos north of Barcelona useually December- January it can get cold at night so Propane is the best option. I also keep a refillable bottle as a back up and I can refill that at the Repsol depot just up the road. Never been refused a refill in Spain and only once in France so fitted a body mounted filling point.

[Derek Uzzell]

Keith T - 2017-09-18 6:03 PM

 

...The two benefits of a fixed tank are of course space and weight saving,

 

Plainly, with no gas-locker, extra space will be available in a new motorhome when an underslung LPG tank is fitted, but I can’t see any real weight-saving gain being achieved as the weight of, say, a 25-litres tank (plus fixings) will certainly be no lighter than that of a 13kg steel bottle of propane.

 

I note that Auto-Trail’s motorhome handbooks provide minimal advice about the LPG tank fitted to some current A-T models, but a tank’s on/ff outlet valve will normally be located beneath a cover on the tank’s side.

 

This recent forum thread discussed shutting off such tanks

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Underfloor-LPG-shutoff/47760/

 

and the photos on this link may help you identify the on/off valve

 

http://deepredmotorhome.com/gas.php