Kevin1946 Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 2004 Elddis 400 RL I have fitted 2x100 watt panels with a 20 amp MPPT charger supplies by photonic universe (I have 1 X 110 amp battery),when I fitted them I put a on/off switch between the solar panels and the MPPT unit in the wardrobe.The van will be outside all winte and on reading an article about heaters for winter there was advice given about not leaving chargers turned on all winter,as the unit I have has the potential to charge at 12 to 16 amps on a clear day,should I leave it on all winter long or switch it on and off when the battery requires it. Also can I damage the solar panels by switching them off for long periods of time.The reason I fitted the on off switch is because in the instructions it says you must disconnect the them before removing a battery,so a switch was easier to fit at the installation time.I had a 100 watt unit in my caravan before I got the motorhome and it worked great for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 I was concerned too that if the battery developed a fault/shorted cell the charge current could go right up and get the battery hot or even start a fire. So I bought an optimate 2 charger, it's only capable of delivering 800ma on bulk charge, it float charges a bit lower (something like 13.5v) and let's the battery rest so as not to evaporate the water. It won't hurt the panels to be disconnected the current will simply stop flowing and the voltage will just sit there on the switch. To be super safe switch the panels off at night so there is no spark to ignite any battery fumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 You have had the panels connected all summer when they are most likely to produce a decent charge over several hours, now it's winter they will produce a small charge for a short time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 You won't damage the Panel by drawing zero power. It isn't the charge current that is the issue, that is generally low on a Motorhome specific Solar Charger, it is the voltage the regulator 'trickles' at that is the issue. What Solar charger is it, hopefully a Votronic that drops to a 'trickle' of under 13.4v? It also depends on your battery? 110Ah batteries suggest 'budget' ones that might be more prone to 'overcharge' than quality batteries? Generally (very broad brush generalisation for Lead batteries) the greater the durability that is required, the lower the battery Ah capacity for the same physical size. For example the very durable long life Exide G80 is just an 80Ah battery at the physical size of L-353mm, W-175mm, H-190mm of most Motorhome battery boxes. The Deep Cycle Bosh L5/Varta LFD90 is 90Ah, again in the same physical size as a G80. The Banner Energy Bull is 100Ah in the same physical package The similar physical sized budget Lion leisure is a 110Ah battery. Have a look at our webpage on long term Solar/EHU charging : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/ehu-full-time-yes-or-no.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin1946 Posted October 1, 2017 Author Share Posted October 1, 2017 The panels were only connected yesterday as I had an alternator issue. The battery is a Platinum SD 6 110 amp dated 10/2016 I got the van in June 2017. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 You have already used solar so will have a good idea of how well it works, and I guess like me you have found it is perfectly ok to leave on all winter. There is a good reason for this, in winter your panels will only reach peak output for one hour per day outside of this the output will rapidly drop off and even then due to angle of sun this will be significantly below their rated output. add to this overcast days and you can see this is nowhere near a constant float charge such as would be produced by a EHU. Where you may run into problems is summer, generally people 'balance' their system by having the panel output in watts roughly equal to the amp.hour capacity of batteries, you have roughly 2/1 I've never run a set up like this but it has the potential to produce high floating charge for long hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Colin, Sorry but that is utter B&%$cks, his set-up is so different to yours there is no comparison. You are advising someone to risk their batteries based solely on your limited experience when a huge number of factors influence Solar Power : 1. Where he is in the country will affect the Solar output by up to 30% ( see here for the different potential available based on where you live : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/solar-panels.php ). 2. Where he is in the Country will also impact the battery temperature and how that reactes to overcharging. The further North the colder the battery might be so the lower the impact. 3. The battery technology, condition, size and quality will also have a big bearing on how that takes to overcharging. A Silver based battery will tolerate a higher boost/float voltage than an Antimony battery. Antimony or budget Calcium based batteries could have their life slashed by more than half. 4. Something as 'insignificant' as the angle the van is at on the drive will have a big bearing, just a Drive slope of 5 degrees North will significantly affect the Solar Gain compared to a drive sloping 20 degrees South in front of a South facing property. 5. The size and quality of the panel. 6. How the two panels are wired, Series or Parallel. 7. The Installation. 8. Most important of all the Solar Regulator, primarily because House based Solar regulators (as favoured by Photonic Universe where Kevin says he bought his) are totally unsuited to Motorhomes, IMO. Why? Because a House Solar solution is all about extracting every milliamp and throwing it at the National Grid. An owner of a House Solar solution would be horrified to think the regulator might drop into a 'gentle charge' mode at any time. It just isn't a consideration. Conversely a Motorhome specific Solar charger is designed on the basis that the average Motorhome WON'T be used even 50% of the time, so puts the battery first assuming that much of the time it will be fully charged. Hence the outstandingly efficient Motorhome specific Votronic MPPT range 'trickles' at 13.4v. I am guessing that the Regulator bought by Kevin is one similar to this House based unit : https://www.photonicuniverse.com/en/catalog/full/299-High-efficiency-20A-MPPT-solar-charge-controller-for-solar-panels-up-to-260W-12V--520W-24V-up-to-100V.html TYPICALLY, EVERY DAY WHEN THE SUN COMES UP IT CHARGES AT 14.7v FOR 2 HOURS, REGARDLESS OF THE BATTERY CHARGE STATE. Only AFTER 2 hours does it drop to a 'still too high' 13.8v 'trickle'. Some have a run time of 4 hours. How can that be good for a fully charged battery for 6 months of Winter??? Even in your argument above where you point out that in mid winter there might be only be 4 hours of light, in a dual panel series connected solution it will have no problems getting up to 14.7v for all of those hours. It might only be low light output, but still enough to fry a fully charged battery at those volts with just 1 HOUR a day. Just because something works for a person in Glasgow with a single 80w panel and a shunt solar regulater doesn't mean the results will be identical for someone on the Cornish South Coast with a sophisticated set-up. Running a 'House' Solar based solution isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you will need to manage it a lot more to preserve battery life. Especially if you have budget batteries, like we assume your 110Ah batteries are. The usual 110Ah's will not take to any overcharge at all. A proper Motorhome specific regulator (and we know of only 3 chargers currently being made) already knows how the van might be used and is designed accordingly. Kevin, Ask Colin again if he is prepared to underwrite his advice with his wallet, by paying for a new battery, if he is ignore us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabino Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 aandacaravans Thanks for this helpful advice, How does the Victron Energy SmartSolar MPPT 75/10 cope with this scenario? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 The Victron, IMO, is not designed for a Motorhome. Motorhome specific regulators have dual battery capability where the design assumes the battery will be full and act accordingly. The Victron has a single battery output. . The Votronic is a better regulator for a Motorhome in every respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin1946 Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 I do thank the two of you and appreciate your help and knowledge as I do need help. I did not need 200watt but my good wife got them as a gift and ordered the most expensive set up they had. The charger is the one you sent the link of,it does start at 14.7. The 100 watt I had on my caravan had a smaller charger and It boil an 80 amp battery last year,this is part of the reason I fitted an on/off switch between the solar & the charger.The 2x100 watt are wired as per the instructions and using the connector's supplied for( + to +)(-to -) giving 200 watt 12volt. I live right on the coast in Wicklow which is known as the Sunny South East,the van gets full sun from early morning to 4 oc. I thought I would leave it switched off and wait until I see the battery dropping below 12.4 and then put it on until it is fully charged,does that sound like it would work? Thanks Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Two panels should work well, even giving some useful output in the depths of Winter. The Solar regulator isn't a bad one, but you will need to manage the set-up to preserve battery life. If you think of your set-up as a 'fast' Battery Charger, rather than a battery maintainer and react accordingly I think you will be very happy with the power it gives. What you propose will work fine, but I think 12.4v is a bit low as it equates to 25% discharge on the Platinium you have, see chart below? I would try and keep it above 12.6v, but see how long it takes to get to that level and see what works best for your vehicle. You will see on the chart below that more modern batteries have a higher resting and discharge voltages so adjust the way you use it based on any battery you may obtain in the future? You might say you are new to this and need help, but you are actually way ahead of most people with Solar to even think it might be wise to de-activate it when you don't actually need the battery charging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin1946 Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 Thanks for your reply,I will work on turning it on at 12.8 until it is charged. I do like to try and use logis in what I do,at 71 ( feeling 40) and my hobby is restoring and using old 1980's Rolls & Bentleys and using them as daily drivers for a couple of years and selling them in perfect condition (at a loss most times) to preserving British engineering perfection at its best. Now my new hobby is this Motorhome ,,,Work done to it ,new discs,pads,drums linkings,front wheel bearings,t/rods,LED lights,solar panels,under sealed,rug buddy 120 watt heating,parking sensors front& back,t/belt,alternator,chip tuning box,new tyres, led tv,sat dish,aerial,radio with Bluetooth,around 2400£ It is a good van now (98000mls) should be reliable. Thanks to all for your thoughts and help. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabino Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 aandncaravan - 2017-10-02 5:08 PM The Victron, IMO, is not designed for a Motorhome. Motorhome specific regulators have dual battery capability where the design assumes the battery will be full and act accordingly. The Victron has a single battery output. . The Votronic is a better regulator for a Motorhome in every respect. Thanks for that. What should I be doing to ensure that the MPPT 75/10 isn't screw up the battery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 sabino - 2017-10-05 1:52 PM aandncaravan - 2017-10-02 5:08 PM The Victron, IMO, is not designed for a Motorhome. Motorhome specific regulators have dual battery capability where the design assumes the battery will be full and act accordingly. The Victron has a single battery output. . The Votronic is a better regulator for a Motorhome in every respect. Thanks for that. What should I be doing to ensure that the MPPT 75/10 isn't damaging the battery? One suggestion might be to create a purpose made charging profile for your battery, whatever that is, following the battery manufacturers guidelines. The Victron is programmable so suggest the Float voltage is set down to the same as the Victron's 13.4v not the usual 13.8v? Alternatively, in our view even better, treat it like a Mains 230v charger and only enable Solar when the battery actually needs charging. A good quality battery in good condition will happily sit without any Drain on it for months at a time. But that assumes you don't have a 'Battery Master' device stealing power from the habitation battery for the Starter battery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabino Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 aandncaravan - 2017-10-05 2:47 PM sabino - 2017-10-05 1:52 PM aandncaravan - 2017-10-02 5:08 PM The Victron, IMO, is not designed for a Motorhome. Motorhome specific regulators have dual battery capability where the design assumes the battery will be full and act accordingly. The Victron has a single battery output. . The Votronic is a better regulator for a Motorhome in every respect. Thanks for that. What should I be doing to ensure that the MPPT 75/10 isn't damaging the battery? One suggestion might be to create a purpose made charging profile for your battery, whatever that is, following the battery manufacturers guidelines. The Victron is programmable so suggest the Float voltage is set down to the same as the Victron's 13.4v not the usual 13.8v? Alternatively, in our view even better, treat it like a Mains 230v charger and only enable Solar when the battery actually needs charging. A good quality battery in good condition will happily sit without any Drain on it for months at a time. But that assumes you don't have a 'Battery Master' device stealing power from the habitation battery for the Starter battery? Thanks again I have recently had a Sterling Battery Maintainer fitted which is activated when the leisure battery reaches around 13.3v. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 The Sterling is the best of the Battery maintainers, and because it doesn't trigger until you 'Activate' the Solar charging, only then will it take any 'real' power from the habitation battery. However, In your case, because the set-up is a single regulator and Battery maintainer, both the Starter and Habitation batteries may be at risk of 'overcharge' when the Solar is active, as I think the Battery maintainer will 'charge' the Starter battery at the same voltage as the Habitation area battery? A Starter battery will withstand a high Float voltage even less well than a quality Habitation battery, usually drying out. In Motorhome specific charging solutions, the Starter battery is 'maintained' at a lower rate than the habitation battery, for this very reason. An example is the Schaudt Elektroblock which maintains the Starter battery on mains charging at about 0.5v less than the habitation area battery. The Votronic documentation states - "Two Battery Charging Ports : Automatic charging of the main supply board battery (BOARD I), as well as support charging and trickle charging (max. 1 A) of the vehicle's starter battery (Start II) with overcharge protection". Which I have no idea how it is achieved, but seems to indicate a lower rate for the Starter battery. I think the battery maintainers just 'link' the two battery banks together so they are treated equally, which doesn't appear to be the ideal. Check your own setup to see if the Habitation and Starter batteries are the same voltage when the Solar is fully active, or if the Starter battery is 0.5v less? That might help you decide the best course of action? Either way I think I would do as Kevin intends to operate, maybe using something like the switch he has installed, and activate the Solar only when you notice either battery dropping slightly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin1946 Posted October 6, 2017 Author Share Posted October 6, 2017 SORRY! I AM BACK AGAIN On reading what you say about charging the engine battery,my solar does not seem to charge the engine battery.My van has a 3 way switch at the amp meter ,up is hab centre is off, down is starter.As I change position's I can hear the relays click Do I need to change the position of this switch to charge the starter battery from solar OR if I turn the ignition on & leave it on for a couple of hours will this let it feed back to the starter battery OR could I wire the solar to a two way switch (1) position 1 = hab batter position 2 = starter battery.Or (2) position 1 = hab battery position 2 = hab and starter,or (3) not do it at all. Also on the photonic tracker there is a spare position + & - which can be switched on and off from the charger it's called Light on Light off,could I rake a feed from this to the starter battery as I could turn it on when needed,I think this spare position is for connecting to 220v investor . Thanks Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 Sorry I can't advise you on how to wire a single battery regulator when a dual one should have been supplied by Photonic, however I can stress that the Light or Load output must never be used for charging the Starter battery, see the Post on Solar panel power for why it can generate huge bills, relevant bit below : We got an email from Adam Donato at North East Truck, a Fiat Professional Dealership in York, that went as follows : "We are a Fiat Professional dealership in York and are having an issue with what we believe is a Schaudt EBL 271 charger/power unit. It is installed in a Pilote/Fiat motorhome 2012 and the fault is that the body marker lights are always on since we have replaced the engine ECU. We have been in touch with the supplying motorhome dealer and they have told us the EBL has been spiked during battery disconnection and they can supply us a replacement at £475 +VAT. I see from your feed back you are well and truly up to speed with these units so I am asking if you can advise if you think the EBL is in fact “spiked” and needing replacement and if so can you supply us a remanufactured one? Or fix this one? Any help would be much appreciated. Please see attached photos", The photos showed a picture of the EBL with a none Pilote/Schaudt recommended 'House Solar' regulator installed which was not only the incorrect regulator but had been wired badly. So we asked more questions. Since the 'professionally' installed Solar was put in they have had no end of issues. Starter battery failure, lots of Dash warning lights coming on, Breakdowns and finally ECU failure. £1,000's in repair costs so far. The Solar installer had wired the 'Load' output of the regulator, a very basic, poor quality unit, directly to the Starter Battery circuit, presumably in some vain hope it would charge the Starter battery? On this regulator, as per most with a 'Load output', it is designed to power a Motor, Light Bulb, etc when certain battery voltage thresholds are met and Solar power is being produced. Not only does it have a 'fixed' voltage of around 12.3v, so no real battery charging capability which requires around 14v, but there were no blocking diodes to prevent power from the Starter battery turning the regulator into a 'Heater' when the Sun went down. Obviously being designed to power a Light Bulb, etc. there would never be any 'power' at the end of the cable for blocking diodes to be required. As a result the Solar regulator 'Load' side overheated and shorted providing a virtual straight through path for the 21v Solar Panel to spike the vehicle electrics. No wonder the Dash lit up like a Christmas tree and fried the Engine ECU and the EBL!! I think they were lucky not to lose more. So please can we point out the Load circuit MUST NOT be used to charge a battery. To charge a battery the output needs to be 14.4v when the battery is low, dropping to 13.8v or less when the battery is charged We suggest you avoid anything apart from Motorhome specific Solar chargers. If the Solar regulator doesn't have Starter battery and Habitation battery charging along with a low 13.4v trickle charge it is most likely not for a Motorhome, but a House Solar regulator which have very different design criteria. A follow up email to the above from the owners once they got the vehicle back said, " The solar system was fitted by a leading Pilote dealer in the UK. We find it disturbing that a reputable dealer could install a non recommended unit, resulting in so many problems" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 As can be seen from the photo the correct Schaudt regulator (or compatible unit like the Votronic) was not used. You can just make out the unregulated 'Load' + Red cable going off the EBL 271 Solar3 pin port centre pin. Not only putting 21v into the EBL, but that voltage being passed on to the vehicle Ignition, ECU, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 Whilst aandncaravan obviously has in depth knowledge of all things electrical and has offered excellent advice on there many postings, I would of though I would of thought (I must disagree with the previous post as opposed to a load of b*****ks might have been a more polite reply. This forum attracts queries and answers from a whole range of members most post in good faith. But some may fear to post for fear of negative comments. I am 68 and still learning!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin1946 Posted October 6, 2017 Author Share Posted October 6, 2017 Thanks,I will use it for charging leasure battery when it needs to be charged and leave it turned off when not needed Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 Welted, there has been some other recent history behind the exchange, but you are of course right, my reply should have been more polite. I apologise to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.