Hymer weight

[Tom 588]

So, if I want the Hymer I’m buying in Germany updating from 3500 kg to 3850 kg, what does the 400 € they’re asking for get spent on ?

[colin]

Sauerkraut and Bier?

But seriously, my experience of Hymer group is any thing non standard costs a fortune.

[Tom 588]

Thanks Colin , so pleased it’s not being wasted !

[Brian Kirby]

Whatever they spend it on ('though I suspect Colin is about right!), do check that it is actually worth the cost. If your van is on the "light" chassis, it will have a 2,000kg rear axle load limit and an 1,850kg front axle load limit. Neither axle will have its load limit increased, so you'll never be able to run it at 3,850kg MAM without over-loading either the front or the rear axle. If you really want more payload you'd be better advised to go for the heavy chassis with its higher axle loads, that would give you a useful margin on the axles while running at its MAM.

[Robbo]

Agree with Brian. The 3850Kg upgrade in MAM doesn't increase the permissible rear axle load, which is where you need it most.

 

The rear axle can be uprated from 2000 to 2240Kg but it's preferable to have 16" wheels to start with. Also, the uprating is cheaper if you have leaf springs on the rear axle (using air-assisted bellows). An ALCO chassis uprate will be much more expensive, I believe.

 

Probably best to spend the 400 euro on ensuring the vehicle comes with 16" wheels, so as to keep your future options open.

 

[aandncaravan]

It isn't going up a size in wheel diameter that gives you a higher rated tyre, but width.

 

The Hankook Vantra 15", 195/70R15 is only a 100 R, or, in English, will carry 1,000kg at 106 MPH

 

Whereas the 'wider' Hankook Vantra 15", 225/70R15 is a 112 S, or, in English, will carry 1,120kg at 112 MPH, greater than the 16" version.

 

The larger diameter Hankook Vantra 16", 225/65R16 is only a 112 R or, in English, will carry 1,120kg at 106 MPH. In other words the same weight as the 15" but at a slower speed rating.

Effectively a lower load overall, because a tyre has to be stronger to be able to carry the same weight at a higher speed, hence why some very high weight rated tyres for Low Loaders (like Tank Transporters) having low speed ratings, because to carry a heavy load and be capable of 70mph would cost a small fortune.

 

What 16" wheels sometimes offer, is greater width options.

For example you wouldn't normally upgrade a 15" diameter wheel with a 6" (6.0J) width rim to a 16" diameter 6", you would generally move up to a 6.5" wheel width or even a 7" at 16".

 

Yet there is nothing to stop you fitting 15"/7.5" rims if they fit the wheel arches instead of 16" 7.5" rims. See : http://www.tyresizecalculator.com/charts/tire-width-for-a-wheel-rim-size-chart

 

 

In actual fact there is quite an advantage to staying with 15" rims over 16" rims because the tyre sidewall profile can be lower, so the gearing unaltered with stability the same.

Depending on the height of the sidewall, you can sometimes trade a tall sidewall 'comfort' for a shorter sidewalls stability.

That is harder to do on a 16" rim without more compromises.

 

It used to be the case that 15" tyres had a more limited choice of sizes/widths and that to go to a decent load bearing width meant going up in diameter, however 15" tyres are slightly cheaper and the selection astonishing, just look here :

https://www.camskill.co.uk

 

It is the best website we have found for comparing tyre loads, speed ratings, prices, etc.

 

The only advantage I can see of going to 16" wheels is the extra 0.5" ground clearance?

 

However, that all assumes you can buy Fiat commercial wheels in greater widths either as an aftermarket option or Fiat own brand?

 

I did find these, Fiat Ducato PCD: 5 x 118, at £420 a set of four :

http://vanrims.co.uk

 

[colin]

Alan, 16" tyres are commonly available to take the 2.4t axle loads that maxi vans such as mine are plated at, there may be 15" tyres around to take that load, but they are not normally listed and even if they exist will most likely be very difficult to obtain.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Homologation papers are different for 3500 and 3850 and some things who are too large to explain here to justify the extra 400 euro. it is more than you think, some are behavior test, brakes, and pollution tests.

[Ocsid]

Out of interest is it possible to take the uprated axles but retain a GVW of 3500 kgs?

Asked because I know how easy it is even within the GVW to overload the rear axle; plus of course when one resells there is physically the option to either keep tp 3500 or replate to 3850 Kgs GVW.

Hagging bikes on the rear being such a potential case of unevenly distributing the weight of them carried by the axles.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Has nothing to whit Hymer, all others ask the extra money whit some variations. In belgium the mot is different technically and in price double 3500/3850 versions. for 50 euro extra you can drink some german beers. and has nothing repeat nothing to whit a driver licence. Study the rules first and than comment pleaase.I did it.

[Robbo]

Allan - interesting post with respect to the use of 15" and 16" tyres.

 

Agree, you could use a 225/70R15 tyre with a load index of 112 in order to support an uprated 2240Kg rear axle.

 

However, many respected tyre authorities recommend that only 90% of the rated load index is utillised. So, for a 2240Kg permissible axle load you'd need a tyre with a load index of 116 ie. 2 x 1250 (116 load index) x 0.9 = 2250Kg > 2240Kg.

 

This is particularly relevant with respect to motorcaravans where the rear axle is more likely to be operated at the permissible axle load, over long distances and often in hot environments. Even White Van man doesn't stress his tyres so much, generally only running 50% of the time at full load.

 

I haven't found any 15" tyres with a load index of 116.

 

As an example, I run 225/75R16 with a load index of 118 on a 2400Kg rear axle (91% of the load index) @ 70psi. Gives me reasonable confidence, backed up with a tyre pressure/temperature monitoring system. I certainly wouldn't want to lose control of the vehicle when trundling along at 60mph. Perhaps I'm paranoid but I've been trained in risk assessment all my working life as an engineer :-D

[aandncaravan]

colin - 2017-10-24 3:31 PM

 

Alan, 16" tyres are commonly available to take the 2.4t axle loads that maxi vans such as mine are plated at, there may be 15" tyres around to take that load, but they are not normally listed and even if they exist will most likely be very difficult to obtain.

 

Colin, If you go on the Camskill Tyre website using the link I supplied above you will find close on SEVENTY different 225/70 15" tyres (almost all with higher load ratings than the equivalent 16" Michelin Camper at a 112Q) from around 45 different manufacturers. All available within 3 days to anywhere in the UK.

 

That suggests a huge selection of higher performing (in load) 15" tyres are not only available, but readily available. Anywhere.

However, I certainly wouldn't suggest anyone buys a Kenda at £44, even if it has an alleged rating of 112R

 

 

I know the Maxi chassis comes with a different PCD and offset, and generally a 16" wheel, but you can get 15" alloys with the Fiat Maxi PCD offset to fit the Maxi chassis, probably benefiting from a more stable ride without the overgearing that is sometimes an issue.

 

Either way, you do have a choice. A big choice. Not just what Fiat/Hymer offer.

More likely that the options are not fully understood?

 

I am not saying the 16" 235 isn't the best option for some, but it isn't the best automatic upgrade for a higher load.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[colin]

aandncaravan - 2017-10-24 8:00 PM

 

colin - 2017-10-24 3:31 PM

 

Alan, 16" tyres are commonly available to take the 2.4t axle loads that maxi vans such as mine are plated at, there may be 15" tyres around to take that load, but they are not normally listed and even if they exist will most likely be very difficult to obtain.

 

Colin, If you go on the Camskill Tyre website using the link I supplied above you will find close on SEVENTY different 225/70 15" tyres (almost all with higher load ratings than the equivalent 16" Michelin Camper at a 112Q) from around 45 different manufacturers. All available within 3 days to anywhere in the UK.

 

That suggests a huge selection of higher performing (in load) 15" tyres are not only available, but readily available. Anywhere.

However I certainly wouldn't suggest any buys a Kenda at £44 even if it has an alleged rating of 112R

 

 

I know the Maxi chassis comes with a different PCD and offset, and generally a 16" wheel, but you can get 15" alloys with the Fiat Maxi PCD offset to fit the Maxi chassis, probably benefiting from a more stable ride without the overgearing that is sometimes an issue.

 

Either way, you do have a choice. A big choice. Not just what Fiat/Hymer offer.

More likely that the options are not fully understood?

 

I am not saying the 16" 235 isn't the best option for some, but it isn't the best automatic upgrade for a higher load.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My van like all Maxi's needs 116 load index tyres, in my case in 215/75-16 AFAIK these are not available in 15", there are also 121 load index tyres commonly available in 16" , this is why people go to 16" wheels, although I'd be a bit weary of going that large a diameter on a Light chassis as I would be concerned as to the gearing and braking.

[aandncaravan]

Point taken.

 

[starvin marvin]

Far better and easier is to start with the maxi chassis, get the 16" wheels that go with it, a bit like my Hymer which is plated at 4,000kg, Simples

[bolero boy]

Ocsid - 2017-10-24 4:35 PM

 

Out of interest is it possible to take the uprated axles but retain a GVW of 3500 kgs?

Asked because I know how easy it is even within the GVW to overload the rear axle; plus of course when one resells there is physically the option to either keep tp 3500 or replate to 3850 Kgs GVW.

Hagging bikes on the rear being such a potential case of unevenly distributing the weight of them carried by the axles.

Ocsid, short answer....Yes.

easiest way to do this is to have the original vehicle delivered on the 'heavy' (4250) chassis and the axle weights will be higher (2000/2400?). from there its possible to downplate the MTPLM to 3500kg.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Upratig a chassis load and related suspension including wheels and tyre loads can violate the original the original coc eu papers and car insurance including local regulations.There is a large data bank of vehicle data,certificates and homologations available at a fee. And for sure you will find them in the uk, who are informed about upratings, type approvals. measurements, advising about documents, testings. By upratingyou can not only load more,your vehicle will also be safer and more comfortable.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

In belgium downplating does not exist but is a car paper matter to suit b licence.However at our mot it will still be tested at the original plate. seems logical, how in the uk? How about a resale to a c licence owner/

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

That large data bank about motorhomes weights does not include financial matters .But for sure your tax office will look at it what you are doing and what you are building there parking your tax free motorhones there, :-

 

[Brian Kirby]

Ocsid - 2017-10-24 4:35 PM

 

Out of interest is it possible to take the uprated axles but retain a GVW of 3500 kgs?

Asked because I know how easy it is even within the GVW to overload the rear axle; plus of course when one resells there is physically the option to either keep tp 3500 or replate to 3850 Kgs GVW.

Hagging bikes on the rear being such a potential case of unevenly distributing the weight of them carried by the axles.

As already said above, yes, it is. It is also possible to specify vans on the maxi chassis (with 2,000kg front and 2,400kg rear axle loads) to be OEM supplied at 3,500kg MAM. In view of the relatively tight max rear axle load of 2,000kg on the light chassis, I'm surprised more people do not do this. There are additional advantages to the maxi chassis beyond the axle loads, in terms of wheel size and brake design, that appear better suited to motorhome use than the light chassis.

[colin]

Brian Kirby - 2017-10-25 6:17 PM

 

Ocsid - 2017-10-24 4:35 PM

 

Out of interest is it possible to take the uprated axles but retain a GVW of 3500 kgs?

Asked because I know how easy it is even within the GVW to overload the rear axle; plus of course when one resells there is physically the option to either keep tp 3500 or replate to 3850 Kgs GVW.

Hagging bikes on the rear being such a potential case of unevenly distributing the weight of them carried by the axles.

As already said above, yes, it is. It is also possible to specify vans on the maxi chassis (with 2,000kg front and 2,400kg rear axle loads) to be OEM supplied at 3,500kg MAM. In view of the relatively tight max rear axle load of 2,000kg on the light chassis, I'm surprised more people do not do this. There are additional advantages to the maxi chassis beyond the axle loads, in terms of wheel size and brake design, that appear better suited to motorhome use than the light chassis.

 

As this, there are MH's on the market with large overhangs and low payloads which are available on both Light and Maxi chassis, the light with option of upgrade to 3650kg, it's a joke, they should be built on the Maxi chassis.