Brian Kirby Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Tracker - 2017-12-12 7:03 PM Brian Kirby - 2017-12-12 1:37 PM I thought you worked in insurance! :-D I did Brian, and I left without paranoia taking over my life! In which case, dear Rich, you should have learned to apply logic to risk instead! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Brian Kirby - 2017-12-12 7:21 PM Tracker - 2017-12-12 7:03 PM Brian Kirby - 2017-12-12 1:37 PM I thought you worked in insurance! :-D I did Brian, and I left without paranoia taking over my life! In which case, dear Rich, you should have learned to apply logic to risk instead! :-D Thanks Brian, and logic dictates that the risk of a gas escape incident is very low, but I am very wary about crossing the road, after all just think of the poor chicken that crossed the road and ended up BBQd in KFC. After a mere 50 years and some 240,000 miles of driving vans of all sizes without a single incident, maybe I was just lucky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chas Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 To get out the van, unlock the gas locker and turn on the gas, lock the gas locker and get back in the van, let's assume that takes 30-40 seconds, how much of a hurry are people in??. Just do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 chas - 2017-12-13 8:39 AM To get out the van, unlock the gas locker and turn on the gas, lock the gas locker and get back in the van, let's assume that takes 30-40 seconds, how much of a hurry are people in??. Just do it. You know what they say about assuming something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 chas - 2017-12-13 8:39 AM To get out the van, unlock the gas locker and turn on the gas, lock the gas locker and get back in the van, let's assume that takes 30-40 seconds, how much of a hurry are people in??. Just do it. Having stopped for a quick brew and a break, find the gas locker key, put on waterproofs and wellies, fight to open the door against the gales and driven rain, plod through puddles, open the locker, reach inside and often blindly and by feel alone locate the right bottle and open the valve, all the while as the wind and rain is blowing up your jumper, shut locker, return indoors, cold and wet, shake off the rain, de-welly, de-waterproof, place wet things in loo to hopefully dry, light gas and brew up. Remove wet things so you can use the loo, dry water from floor, and wonder why you bother! Now here is something to really look forward to - having enjoyed your brew and break, welly and waterproof up again, and reverse the process. Oh such fun! Or just stop, put kettle on, stay warm and dry and enjoy!! Your choice!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 A current Fiat trial in Italy as an option to a Diesel Fiat Ducato base vehicle is a 3 litre Petrol/Gas option. That is a Gas version where the Gas must be 'turned on' all the time when driving. Lots of people all over the World legally and safely drive vehicles on Gas or use Gas to power Heaters, etc while driving. We not only leave our gas turned on, but run the Fridge on gas while moving, our Fridge is so much more efficient and cooler on Gas than on 12v. We do turn the Gas off on a ferry, Euro tunnel, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chas Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Tracker, You forgot to mention securing a life line to the van in case you are swept away. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 chas - 2017-12-13 10:07 AM Tracker, You forgot to mention securing a life line to the van in case you are swept away. lol My apologies Chas, please add, donning lifejacket and securing life line to the faffing about process! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Tracker - 2017-12-12 7:28 PM....................After a mere 50 years and some 240,000 miles of driving vans of all sizes without a single incident, maybe I was just lucky? I think, if we're honest, we all have to admit benefitting from luck at times. But, when the bullet's got your name on it? Don't junk your St Christopher just yet! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Tracker - 2017-12-13 9:35 AM..........................Or just stop, put kettle on, stay warm and dry and enjoy!! Your choice!! We do, we do! :-) But our van has the Truma crash protection system. A modest investment that avoids both the risk, and the inconvenience. I just see it as a kind of insurance premium! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 aandncaravan - 2017-12-13 10:04 AM A current Fiat trial in Italy as an option to a Diesel Fiat Ducato base vehicle is a 3 litre Petrol/Gas option. That is a Gas version where the Gas must be 'turned on' all the time when driving. Lots of people all over the World legally and safely drive vehicles on Gas or use Gas to power Heaters, etc while driving..................... But that compares apples with pears, Allan. The two systems are not the same. LPG powered vehicles do not have gas regulators or flexible "rubber" pigtails to feed the gas to the engine, and they do not feed it as gas but in its liquid state. All connections are rigid or armoured, and have been crash tested to prove their safety. Those on motorhomes do not compare, either in terms of their construction or - with the exception of the Truma system - their crash testing credentials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Brian Kirby - 2017-12-13 11:43 AM All connections are rigid or armoured, and have been crash tested to prove their safety. Sorry Brian, but unless the gas connections are exceptionally flexible a severe crash could rupture them just as it can with petrol or diesel, unless there is a sensor that detects an open unpressurised supply and shuts off the gas supply? The Channel Tunnel will not accept gas powered vehicles and I often wondered why? Life is full of risks and we each take those that on balance seem acceptable to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chas Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Putting aside the horrendous conditions Tracker could encounter on turning his gas bottle on, it would be interesting to know what a insurance assessor would say when told by the fire investigator that the fire that burnt the motorhome to the ground,after a road accident, was caused by a gas cylinder not turned off at the bottle with its ruptured hoses spraying out gas. Perhaps that could be checked with the insurance company one is with to see what they think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 chas - 2017-12-13 12:23 PM Putting aside the horrendous conditions Tracker could encounter on turning his gas bottle on, it would be interesting to know what a insurance assessor would say when told by the fire investigator that the fire that burnt the motorhome to the ground,after a road accident, was caused by a gas cylinder not turned off at the bottle with its ruptured hoses spraying out gas. Perhaps that could be checked with the insurance company one is with to see what they think. Fair comment, does anybody know of it ever happening and how the insured got on with their claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 chas - 2017-12-13 12:23 PM Putting aside the horrendous conditions Tracker could encounter on turning his gas bottle on, it would be interesting to know what a insurance assessor would say when told by the fire investigator that the fire that burnt the motorhome to the ground,after a road accident, was caused by a gas cylinder not turned off at the bottle with its ruptured hoses spraying out gas. Perhaps that could be checked with the insurance company one is with to see what they think. Presumably these vastly experienced and very widely travelled MHers would have already contacted both their insurance company, and the manufacturer of the specific gas reg'/hoses/aplliances, to seek their input and clearance on the matter..?...why wouldn't they?.... Surely they didn't just adopt an "..I know best...I've been driving for years and it's never happened before.." approach? When my kids were little, I didn't need to know the statistics for those injured whilst running with scissors before I told mine not to.... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Tracker - 2017-12-13 12:12 PM Brian Kirby - 2017-12-13 11:43 AM All connections are rigid or armoured, and have been crash tested to prove their safety. 1 Sorry Brian, but unless the gas connections are exceptionally flexible a severe crash could rupture them just as it can with petrol or diesel, unless there is a sensor that detects an open unpressurised supply and shuts off the gas supply? 2 The Channel Tunnel will not accept gas powered vehicles and I often wondered why? 3 Life is full of risks and we each take those that on balance seem acceptable to us. 1 There seem to be stringent regulations calling for the pipes to be only of stainless steel or copper, frequently fixed, corrosion protected or resistant, jointed only with similar materials, provided with a cylinder located gas cock, and with a maximum 500mm steel braid flexible attachment where required - presumably to bridge from the rigid pipework onto the flexibly mounted engine. 2 Presumably because they consider the risk, inside a 30 mile tunnel, too great. I had thought they did accept LPG powered vehicles, but the ban is total, and includes all variants of hybrid that use gas propulsion. 3 My point exactly. It relies on us all understanding and evaluating those risks, for ourselves and for others, and then acting accordingly. From what I'm reading, I'm still not convinced we are all doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Tracker - 2017-12-13 12:32 PM chas - 2017-12-13 12:23 PM Putting aside the horrendous conditions Tracker could encounter on turning his gas bottle on, it would be interesting to know what a insurance assessor would say when told by the fire investigator that the fire that burnt the motorhome to the ground,after a road accident, was caused by a gas cylinder not turned off at the bottle with its ruptured hoses spraying out gas. Perhaps that could be checked with the insurance company one is with to see what they think. Fair comment, does anybody know of it ever happening and how the insured got on with their claim? Given that (to the best of my knowledge) no EU country has motoring regulations that insist that the gas reservoir be turned off whan a leisure vehicle is being driven, it’s hard to see what legal grounds an insurance company could have to penalise a motorcaravanner if his/her motorhome went on fire after a road accident and the vehicle’s gas reservoir had not been turned off. On the other hand, if a motorhome went up in flames on the car-deck of a cross-Channel ferry and its gas reservoir was found to have not been turned off, I would expect the ferry company’s insurers to be very unhappy about the failure of the vehicle’s driver to comply with the ferry company’s clearly stated terms and conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogher Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Tracker - 2017-12-13 9:35 AM Having stopped for a quick brew and a break, find the gas locker key, put on waterproofs and wellies, fight to open the door against the gales and driven rain, plod through puddles, open the locker, reach inside and often blindly and by feel alone locate the right bottle and open the valve, all the while as the wind and rain is blowing up your jumper, shut locker, return indoors, cold and wet, shake off the rain, de-welly, de-waterproof, place wet things in loo to hopefully dry, light gas and brew up. Remove wet things so you can use the loo, dry water from floor, and wonder why you bother! Now here is something to really look forward to - having enjoyed your brew and break, welly and waterproof up again, and reverse the process. Oh such fun! I think you forgot the torch! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Merseyside Fire Brigade Officer told me [summary posted on another thread] a few weeks ago that in the unlikely event of a fire, an off gas cylinder will heat up and, all being well, blow the valve [as it is designed to do] rather than the cylinder itself. If the valve blows, we can expect a sheet of flame as the gas burns off. In the event of the cylinder blowing, we can expect shrapnel. So to me, as a layman, the worst case choice is between a sheet of flame or shrapnel. The Fire Brigade can cope with both. When the Fire Brigade turn up quickly, and they usually do, they will follow a well practised plan of action which will include dowsing the cylinders to cool them down if they have not yet exploded. My insurers include gas explosion under 'Fire', not separately. Excluded from the policy is, 'Damage resulting from fire or explosion in connection with the on-board domestic gas supply to privately converted vehicles where the supply is not fitted or serviced in accordance with the Gas Safety (Installation & Use) Regulations 1998.' I am expected at all times to take all reasonable steps to safeguard my motorhome from loss or damage. My reading of this is that my insurer is more concerned with whether I am properly maintaining my vehicle - do we all get the gas system checked? - than whether I drive with the gas on providing the appliances allow this and the location is not excluded in the policy or by some other reason such as fuel stations. I would expect them to exclude driving with the gas on if they were that bothered. It's a good point raised by chas. It's a reminder to ensure we comply with all our terms of insurance. To me, there are far more common risks related to the way we maintain our motorhomes that concern me than from driving with the gas being on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek500 Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 chas - 2017-12-13 8:39 AM To get out the van, unlock the gas locker and turn on the gas, lock the gas locker and get back in the van, let's assume that takes 30-40 seconds, how much of a hurry are people in??. Just do it. Our Gaslow bottles are only accessible via the rear doors on our PVC. If it's raining, the rear lounge/bed located at the rear of the van could get soaked. Often we arrive at our overnight destination and don't have the need to go outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 The basis of any insurance contract is the proposal or application and I don't recall any of them ever asking me if I turned the gas off when driving. The confirmation of acceptance of the agreed risk and the actual contract are the policy document and schedule including any endorsements that might apply to the specific vehicle or vehicle type or owner, and I don't recall any such document specifying gas turning off when on the road. When on a ferry or a tunnel shutle the conditions of carriage do specify that all gas containers shall be turned off at source and even if they never checked, and often the ferries did not, I always made sure they were off for the crossing. When we had a panel van conversion the fitted from new Autogas tank was underneath the van midway and it was not possible to turn the tank off without laying on your back and crawling under the vehicle and as that had little appeal we did not use the tunnel who were adamant in their requirement to turn off at the tank. I was advised by a ferry company that as long as the gas supply to every appliance was turned off internally that would be OK, sorry can't remember which one but it was the short lived one that replaced SeaFrance, and I used to have their email printed out just in case but I never needed to show it, although I do recall the internal taps being checked for off on one trip after I had explained where the fitted gas tank was. Hopefully one of the many experts on this subject will clarify whether turning gas bottles off at source when on the road either in the UK or the EU is an advisory or a legal requirement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 rogher - 2017-12-13 3:44 PM I think you forgot the torch! Sorry for the oversight, I sit corrected! Anything else? Emergency beacon and sat nav in case the lifeline breaks and spare batteries for the torch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Tracker - 2017-12-13 5:30 PM...............................Hopefully one of the many experts on this subject will clarify whether turning gas bottles off at source when on the road either in the UK or the EU is an advisory or a legal requirement? Dodgy intro, Rich! :-) I had read so many times in French magazines that driving in France with the gas on was forbidden, that I had come to believe it. However, in the light of Derek's post above, I started researching to see if I could find a reference to an actual statute, and could not. The best anyone could come up with was a quote from a Standard (NF) that advised to always turn off at the cylinder before driving, but it is not a statutory requirement. I wouldn't claim that as proof absolute, but if there is such a statute, it seems no-one can find it, which is unusual. So far as the UK is concerned I don't think any law or regulation requires this. All instructions on using gas appliances on the road (mainly just the fridge, sometimes also the heating) refer to ensuring they are not functioning while refuelling, and most advise turning off the gas at the cylinder while driving, unless the vehicle is fitted with a Truma crash safe regulator. Don't know about Spain, which has/had rather more stringent laws on use of gas cylinders than most other countries. AFAIK, the use of cylinder gas is not an EU matter, and is decided on a country by country basis, which is why cylinder sizes, colours, and connection types, vary from one country to another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Thanks Brian and Derek, interesting stuff innit! Everyone's perceptions of acceptable risk, as well as perceptions about legalities, differ and I have in the past, although not recently, seen people smoking whilst they fill their cars, boat fuel tanks, mowers etc with petrol, or transfer petrol from one container to another. I never drove with any gas appliance alight and I would never venture onto a filling station with any naked flame but whether the actual risks are any greater than driving with the gas bottles not turned off I don't know - but my own perceptions are that any risk with petrol, especially petrol fumes in an enclosed area, is unacceptable whereas the risk with gas bottles not turned off when driving are acceptable. Perhaps having seen a petrol engined boat catch fire some years ago and, if not actually explode certainly burn very fast, affected my perceptions, as indeed many of us are affected by our own experiences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheer lunar-see Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 You forgot to mention the dangers in getting out of the van by being hit by traffic or even mugged by foreign persons or bitten by insects with untold diseases, Tracker, far worse than just getting wet, I'm with you, leave them on, and I was a gas engineer for 40 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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