Rapido Heating

[Will86]

Brian Kirby - 2017-12-13 2:32 PM

I can't understand that either. I wouldn't accept a heating system that has "moods" about how it will work. It is a engineered installation that works within defined parameters. If, on one occasion it is satisfactory, and on another it is not, it has a fault. .

 

PS to my last ... reading Brian's post I claim that my answer is exactly the root of the problem and its not at all surprising that its been undetected. There is no proof of course until someone investigates.

 

No doubt there will be some who question my comments ... but I can prove this is the cause of a similar situation right where I live now and can explain fully.

[Derek Uzzell]

Rapido refers to the type of ALDE heating system fitted to the 665F (and some other Rapido models) as “ALDE Comfort Plus Artic”. This designator has clearly been used for quite a few years (the following unanswered MHFacts inquiry referred to it in 2010)

 

http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/49-tech-mech-chat/77913-alde-comfort-plus-arctic.html

 

but (as it says in that thread) there’s no mention of the system on ALDE’s website.

 

As I said above, Rapido’s own documention shows a schematic of the Artic Comfort Plus system

 

http://www.rapido-motorhome.co.uk/rapido_rapidos-savoir-faire_expertise-in-five-points_unrivalled-comfort.phtml

 

and there’s a supplement relating to available heating-system options and the motorhome models they apply to.

 

http://www.rapido-motorhome.co.uk/rapido_rapidos-savoir-faire_standard-fittings_heating.phtml

 

The Rapido 665F that Steve owns an example of was introduced for the 2016 model-year and was the first (and remains the only) Rapido 6-Series model to be fitted as standard with an ALDE Comfort Plus Artic system. The schematic shows general principles of the system, but the 665F does not have a ‘full double floor’ and RHD 665Fs cannot have the heated cab-area carpet. It’s certain that an ALDE 3020 Compact boiler is used (Operating Instructions here)

 

http://www.alde.co.uk/downloads/alde_3020_user.pdf

 

and Rapido’s documentation clearly states that the system they install includes the capability to adjust the bedroom temperature separately from the rest of the living area and (according to my Rapido User Manual) this is done via an ALDE-branded rotary thermostat-switch in the bedroom. This switch is shown in my User Manual in the “Miscellaneous ALDE heating equipment” section that also mentions a Truma “Multivent” fan ("to increase warm air circulation in the living area”) and a Plate Heat Exchanger that (via a button on the dashboard) enables heat from the motorhome’s engine to transfer to the ALDE heating circuit.

 

ALDE’s User Manual for the 3020-112 Colour Touch control-panel

 

http://www.alde.co.uk/downloads/alde_3020_user.pdf#page=17

 

mentions the capability to select the speed of the fan when a booster-fan convector is installed and Rapido’s schematic suggests that this type of convector may be fitted (4. Blown air for faster heating). But I don’t know if Steve’s 665F has that control-panel.

 

Two things worth saying though - the 665F is Steve’s first motorhome and ALDE heating systems can be tricky when it comes to fault-finding

 

https://tinyurl.com/yd3jvjqo

 

It’s also the case that Rapido can move in mysterious ways when it comes to construction, with operating switches not where one might expect to find them and ‘services’ carefully hidden inaccessibly. My Rapido 640F has Truma blown-air heating with a Combi-4 unit under the bed and connected to four air-trunks. I know where one trunk goes (the pitifully short one that I needed to lengthen!) but the other three trunks disappear under the heater and lead off who knows where to the air-outlets.

 

There's no doubt that the ALDE system fitted to Steve’s 665F SHOULD be able to heat the motorhome’s interior to way above 20°C. Rapido advertises that GRADE 3 heating criteria are met, which means a temperature increase from -15°C to at least +20°C in under 4 hours with an external temperature of -15°C.

 

It’s possible that Rapido has fitted a thermostat in a ‘wrong’ position and that this is the cause of the stated problem, except that - although Rapido can be bloody-minded - they have a lot of experience fitting ALDE systems to motorhomes and a simple mistake like that is unlikely. The 665F is (I believe) unique in the Rapido line-up in having an ALDE system and being built on a non-AL-KO chassis, so one might just as easily guess that it’s this uniqueness that’s the culprit.

 

The 665F model has been marketed for two years and Steve has owned his example since mid-2016 and will have gone through the 2016/2017 winter. I can find absolutely no other on-line complaints about a 665F’s heating system performing inadequately and Steve’s problem apparently only showed up in the 2nd week of his recent November trip.

 

Steve bought his motorhome from Simpsons Motorhomes in Great Yarmouth. Simpsons are a UK Rapido agent, but I don’t know how familiar they are with the marque and with ALDE systems, or what sort of relationship they have with the Mayenne factory. Steve’s previous enquiry about making up a 665F’s lounge-bed and Simpsons’s evident difficulty in resolving this simple matter suggests that they might struggle with an ALDE-related heating fault.

 

However (and I really hesitate to suggest this) given Steve’s limited motorhome background and his comments in his posting of 13 December 2017 2:06 PM, I do wonder whether there actually is a problem, or whether the heating system is capable of being operated as Rapido and ALDE would expect if Steve and Simpsons fully understood it.

[Brian Kirby]

Will86 - 2017-12-13 9:50 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-12-13 2:32 PM

I can't understand that either. I wouldn't accept a heating system that has "moods" about how it will work. It is a engineered installation that works within defined parameters. If, on one occasion it is satisfactory, and on another it is not, it has a fault. .

 

PS to my last ... reading Brian's post I claim that my answer is exactly the root of the problem and its not at all surprising that its been undetected. There is no proof of course until someone investigates.

 

No doubt there will be some who question my comments ... but I can prove this is the cause of a similar situation right where I live now and can explain fully.

The one flaw I can see in your logic, Will, is that it reportedly worked well at the outset, then began to go wrong, and there is no reference to anyone having moved the thermostat between to two events.

[flicka]

From my understanding of Steve's problem it all revolves around the lack of the blown air side of the heating.

My first action would be to check the electric supply for that.

First - Check fires for the blown air fan motor, check wiring has not become detached for the fan motor & thermostat.

Second - Test the fan motor has not failed.

If all appear to be operating correctly it requires full investigation.

Remembering that the motorhome is still under warranty so not being too intrusive & suggest notifying both the dealer & Rapido UK in writing/email.

If as, Derek indicates, the system comprises both Alde & Truma elements, I suspect approaching either individually may be fruitless, as neither will be familiar of how Rapido have configured the combined system.

[stevec176]

Have had a look at diagrams and instructionsvyet again and think I might have come up with a possible solution. There are 2 thermostats, one in the living room and another in the bedroom and on the control panel there are 3 options for selecting which thermostat is in control. I have usually selected the auto option but at night we turn the thermostat in the bedroom right down and dont turn it back up again so maybe the controller is using the bedroom thermostat to control the system. I'll have to do some testing to be sure.

Thanks for all your advice.

[Derek Uzzell]

Steve

 

That sounds promising...

 

It seems probable that your control-panel is the ALDE 3020-112 Colour Touch unit, as this has settings that allow for there being more than one air-temperature sensor and/or a booster fan.

 

ALDE’s Operating Instructions for the 30120-112 panel say

 

"Temperature Sensor

 

If any Alde 3010-238 discrete room temperature sensors are connected, this allows you to select:

 

• Control panel. Temperature is measured at the control panel.

• Living room. Temperature is measured at discrete room temperature sensor 1.

• Bedroom. Temperature is measured at discrete room temperature sensor 2.

• Auto. Temperature is measured at the control panel, but automatically selects a discrete room temperature sensor when connected, prioritising sensor 1. This allows the sensor to be selected with a convenient wall switch.”

 

If Sensor 1 were in the front-lounge and Sensor 2 in the bedroom, turning down the Sensor 2 switch should not override Sensor 1’s functioning. I’d try selecting maximum room temperature on the control-panel and on the bedroom thermostat-switch and see what happens. In principle the temperature in lounge and bedroom should both become tropical fairly quickly, particularly if you run the boiler on gas.

 

(Presumably your 665F does have at least one fan-assisted convector? If that’s so, do you need to switch the fan On and Off yourself, or is this operation handled via the control-panel?)

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

There lies maybe the problem Stevec. Two thermo stats. I separate the sleeping room from the living by a hand operated ball valve in three way version.

[rogher]

Two thermostats seem quite unnecessary in such a small space. One could be a placebo, perhaps? ;-) I have a similar view about those for the passenger in upmarket cars.

It could just be that the second stat is used to establish a "set-back" temperature, used when the main thermostat is 'asleep' to maintain a minimum temperature.

[Brian Kirby]

I think that what Steve probably has are not thermostats, where the temperature is set on the device, but thermistors (the temperature sensors), where the temperature is set remotely - in this case on the control panel.

 

This is a complex control panel, and it is not entirely clear whether there is a living area sensor plus a bedroom sensor plus the standard sensor in the control panel, or just sensors at the control panel and bedroom. In either case, there appears to be a wide range of settings that can be set for each sensor, including timed on/off settings and temperature settings. It also seems that the fan convector settings can be varied via the control panel.

 

Having now got confirmation of most of the bits that are installed, I'm wondering if Steve may have inadvertently changed a setting for one or other of the sensors, or the fan convector, while seeking to merely change a temperature setting?

 

I note that he says he turns down the bedroom temperature at night. Usually, with a multi sensor installation, one would not do that, but (as I understand the control panel instructions), would leave the bedroom setting constantly at the desired night-time temperature, while setting the living area temperature at whatever is desired there, but to activate according to time. Then, as the living area is likely to be set warmer than the bedroom, when the living area sensor comes live (at whatever time is set) it will merely override the bedroom set point until such time as the living area temperature is again de-activated, when the temperature in the van will decay until the bedroom area sensor calls for heat.

 

It is unclear how the panel might respond to having two differing temperatures set simultaneously, but I'm guessing that this is taken care of by the inbuilt priorities, where sensor 1 would appear to override sensor two. (If not, it would presumably be necessary to set the bedroom sensor to go off at the same time as the living area sensor is activated, and vice versa. However, this seems over-complicated for so small a system, where there is just one boiler, one pump, and one heating circuit with no installed shunts or motorised valves to create separate zones.)

 

I think Steve probably needs to ascertain whether he has control panel plus one, or plus two, and, if the latter, which sensor is designated as No 1 (on the assumption that the other must be No 2). As the fan convector seems not to be working, I just wonder if it might have been turned off when Steve's friend said he was getting too hot, or whether Steve turned down one of the sensor settings at that time, and has left it at too low a temperature to activate the fan.

 

Our van has a Truma CP plus control panel, and that has numerous nested menu options, a bit like operating a PC back in the days of DOS! But, its just a mere baby compared to that Alde panel, so I think it may take Steve a while to learn its ways, and it will probably always be one of those things that is set up (eventually :-)) to work as desired, but one can never subsequently remember how to adjust the one bit that, in retrospect, wasn't quite right! Oh, the joys of electronics! :-D

[Derek Uzzell]

This 2012 webpage relates to a 2008 Le Voyageur motorhome fitted with an ALDE 3010 boiler

 

http://gillesmoreau.e-monsite.com/pages/levoyageur-lxv-850/levoyageur-en-details/chauffage-central-alde.html

 

A couple of interesting things are

 

1: The photo of a Truma Multivent 3-position switch that the motorhome owner seemingly believes operates a Truma Multivent fan-unit and the the photo alongside that clearly shows an ALDE fan-assisted convector-radiator not a Multivent fan-unit. This suggests that it may be common practice (at least for French motorhome converters!) to use the Truma switch to operate an ALDE blown-air convector-radiator.

 

2: The writer comments (in 2012) that he believes that, from now on, it will be possible on the ALDE heater to set different temperatures for the living room and bedroom, but that his system does not have that capability.

 

Seven Rapido models currently have an ALDE heating system as standard, and it’s an option on another four. In all eleven cases "réglage température chambre” is said to be part of the system.

[Brian Kirby]

There seems to be a certain interchangeability of Alde and Truma branded bits, which suggests to me that Alde and Truma are, in effect, one and the same company, are part of the same parent group, or at least have agreed to share some of their technology.

[Derek Uzzell]

That’s indeed the case - Alde was taken over by Truma in 1997.

 

The ‘old’ version of the Alde fan-assisted radiator was paired with a Truma “Multivent” switch; the current version has a different design of switch. I’ve no idea which switch Steve’s Rapido has.

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks for that Derek. I got the impression, from the manuals you linked to, that the fan convector is now controlled from that all-singing-all-dancing Alde control panel. However, if there is a three position switch, in whatever guise, that mirrors the Truma Multivent switch, that could be where the problem lies.

[Derek Uzzell]

This link is to a recent Alde catalogue

 

http://www.alde.co.uk/downloads/alde_cat_23.pdf

 

Page 40 shows fan-assisted convectors/boosters. These used to be controlled by a Truma “Multivent” switch, but nowadays a smaller Alde-branded switch is available as shown here

 

http://www.alde.co.uk/itemdetails.php?itemId=33

 

Like Truma combination air/water heaters, Alde’s earlier 3010 boilers had the option to fit a “Discrete Temperature Sensor”

 

http://www.alde.co.uk/itemdetails.php?itemId=137

 

that overrides the temperature sensor that’s integrated into the Alde control-panel, allowing the control-panel to be located in a convenient position and the ‘remote’ sensor to be located elsewhere. The Alde 3020 Compact HE boiler in Steve’s motorhome goes one better as two remote temperature sensors can be connected to it.

 

There’s also the capability to have ‘two zone comfort’ (eg. lounge or bedroom) as shown in the diagram in the “Thermostatic bypass” section on Page 41 of the Alde catalogue, controlled by a rotary switch (shown in my Rapido manual) and involving a bypass circuit for the hot-water pipework.

 

As you’ve said above, the Alde 3020 control-panel has numerous settings, but (obviously) it’s not possible to know what settings are currently enabled on Steve’s panel, nor how Rapido has installed the system.

 

It’s quite possible that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the Alde system in Steve’s motorhome and that what he perceives as a ‘fault’ is just how the heating system Rapido has installed will function when its control-panel settings are as they are currently set and how Steve has been operating the system.

 

When I used to be in IT support, there would come a time when trying to resolve a problem remotely became impossible and a ‘house call’ became necessary. In Steve’s case it’s going to need someone who is familiar with the type of Alde system Rapido has installed to inspect Steve’s motorhome’ system, check the control-panel settings and also confirm how Steve is operating the system. Seemingly Simpsons found nothing wrong with the motorhome’s heating, but they may not have appreciated what Steve has been doing, nor have thoroughly checked the control-panel settings.