Brian Kirby Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 Been installing a rear view/reversing camera in the new van, and have hit a snag I can't resolve. I'd thought the electrics would be similar to, if not identical to, the 2013 X250 on which our Hymer was based, so could do as I'd done with that, but it seems perhaps not. First, I was intending to take the power feed and return for the system off the back of the 12V dashboard socket, which I had done with the Hymer. This is ignition, switched and I understand not fed monitored via the CAN bus, so is ideal for the purpose. However, I found that the socket has three wires attached in lieu of the two on the X250. The wires are black (presumed the ground) light grey with two yellow traces, and yellow with two blue traces. The black and the grey/yellow appear the same gauge of cable, whereas the yellow/blue is lighter gauge. I assume the grey/yellow is the + feed, but have no idea what the third, lighter, yellow/blue, cable is for. I'm wondering if the socket may optionally serve for a cigarette lighter supply where this is required, with the lighter gauge wire serving to illuminate that when in use. Can anyone clarify please? Second, I was going to pick up a reversing signal by piggy-backing off the reversing lamp holder in the tail light cluster and run it to the cab end to switch to the reversing camera automatically when in reverse gear. However, there is only a multi-pin plug into the tail light cluster (which I have yet to open, but I suspect doesn't have any spade connectors onto lamp holders from which I can piggy-back), and the feed cables don't look adequately sized for stop, reversing, indicator and rear fog wattages. I'm wondering if these are merely signal cables and the actual switching module is elsewhere within the CAN bus, which I you'll gather don't understand at all. :-) I'd prefer to break into the reversing light feed cable inside the van, where it is dry, rather than at the gearbox. Does anyone have any idea how to identify the reversing light feed (colour/traces or printed code), please. Favourite, if I can identify the cable, would be to break into it in the cab. I have removed the step liner and associated cover panels on the driver's side, which has exposed the main loom from behind the dashboard down to the base of the driver's seat, so accessing the cable presents no problem - just identifying which. To operate the camera automatically it needs to be the switched supply, and not the unswitched main feed to/from the fuseboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 ..can't help with the 12V socket issue, Brian. I replaced the cigarette lighter socket with a USB charger, and this was of course triple-wired (the third being the illumination) and I identified the appropriate 2 required with a multimeter, and taped the third up. My wiring practice was helped by the fact that I installed a Naviceiver, and then wired that to the leisure battery via an in-dash switch. This left me a few spare (erstwhile radio) feeds for the camera, etc. BUT.... I eschewed jumping a reverse signal (since it is Canbus monitored, but I understand people have nonetheless been successful with low switching currents) in favour of a feed from an ignition-switched source, interrupted by a manual, dash-mounted switch. Whilst this isn't automatically switched when reversing, it is very easy to manually switch it, and has the advantages of i) being available for use without selecting reverse - which is useful in some circumstances, and ii) if one is manoeuvring backwards and forwards, it provides an uninterrupted rear-view, unaffected by gear changing. The main (leisure battery) on/off switch for the radio, and the manual reversing camera switch can be seen in the lower dash in this picture (I mounted them in the small, click-removable panel that contains the USB connections when there is a factory-fit radio). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 Brian, the third wire to the lighter/power sockets on the X290 dashboard is a supply for socket illumination which is energised with the vehicle lights. I believe the reversing signal is controlled by the body computer and signalled via the CAN network. The factory fitted reversing camera has its own ECU at the rear offside of the vehicle to control the camera via the network. Probably the easiest method of obtaining the reversing signal on a Canbus system is to use one of the various aftermarket interface modules such as the Canm8 Cannect unit: http://www.ncs-systems.com/car-electronics/can-bus-interfaces/parking-control-interfaces/canm8-park-one-189.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 31, 2017 Author Share Posted December 31, 2017 Thanks for this, Robin. There is already a USB charger in the dash, where the Hymer had a second socket. Tried using my multi-meter on the plug-in connector at the base of the socket, but can't get the probes into contact with the contacts in the plug from either end! The van has a multi-function steering wheel, which I've been told can output a reverse signal, but I can't find any details of the wiring, so have no idea whether that is true or not! I'd prefer to have the reversing function automated of possible, so will hang on in the hope that someone has cracked where to get the signal without putting the CAN bus into orbit! Thanks again, and Happy 2018. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 31, 2017 Author Share Posted December 31, 2017 Deneb - 2017-12-31 5:03 PM.................Probably the easiest method of obtaining the reversing signal on a Canbus system is to use one of the various aftermarket interface modules such as the Canm8 Cannect unit:.................. Thanks for this. However, that requires intervention into the CAN bus, and I have no idea where/how I could access it, and even less idea how it works! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagey Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 watching with interest i will be doing the same soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 I'm sure Lenny has recently installed a reversing camera on his new Hymer. Suggest you PM him and ask. He might even invite you round as he lives in your neck of the woods 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 Brian The image from my X290 motorhome’s reversing camera displays on the (hateful) Pioneer radio-unit Rapido choose to fit. The Pioneer unit would automatically (but painfully slowly) switch to a rear-view image whenever reverse-gear was selected, which (as Robinhood touches on) was infuriating when manoeuvring as I want the camera to provide a rear-niew image continuously. I removed the Pioneer radio from the dashboard and, among its mass of wiring, found a cable labelled “reverse gear signal” (or something like that). I chopped through the cable (it was crimp-connected to the radio’s wiring) and that stopped the automatic reverse-gear procedure from operating. So you may well find there’s a signal cable lurking behind the radio (assuming your Knaus has one) that’s intended to operate a reversing camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 31, 2017 Author Share Posted December 31, 2017 Derek Uzzell - 2017-12-31 5:48 PM...................................I removed the Pioneer radio from the dashboard and, among its mass of wiring, found a cable labelled “reverse gear signal” (or something like that). I chopped through the cable (it was crimp-connected to the radio’s wiring) and that stopped the automatic reverse-gear procedure from operating. So you may well find there’s a signal cable lurking behind the radio (assuming your Knaus has one) that’s intended to operate a reversing camera. Thanks Derek. Does your Rapido have the radio controls on the steering wheel? I don't yet have a radio installed, so haven't explored behind the fitting slots to see what is pre-installed. I'd been anticipating I'd find a multi-pin plug, that would then require an adapter cable to suit it to whatever radio eventually goes in. The rear-view/reversing camera is a twin lens job and will be wired into a dash mounted monitor that powers whichever camera on demand. The reversing signal cable merely tells the monitor which camera to use. If no Volts are present the rear view camera, which is the default, is permanently on, and when the monitor sees Volts it switches to the reversing camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 Brian Kirby - 2017-12-31 5:32 PM Deneb - 2017-12-31 5:03 PM.................Probably the easiest method of obtaining the reversing signal on a Canbus system is to use one of the various aftermarket interface modules such as the Canm8 Cannect unit:.................. Thanks for this. However, that requires intervention into the CAN bus, and I have no idea where/how I could access it, and even less idea how it works! I believe the Connect units are supplied with instructions, but the usual method is to splice into the two Can cables behind the OBD diagnostic socket. This is quite easy on the X290 as the socket is clipped into a bracket under the dashboard fuse box and can be easily removed to reveal the wiring loom, unlike the X250 which has it built into the body computer. Think of the various control modules on the vehicle as computers. They are all linked together through a local network that allows them to exchange information with one another. The Canm8 unit is another computer which when connected to the network is also able to receive information from the vehicle (such as the reverse gear selected signal) and convert it to a form that can be used by supplementary equipment overa normal 12 volt circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 The CANM8 is perhaps an elegant plug and play solution, but faced with Brian's problem, I think that I would be tempted to tap into the reversing lamp connection and drive a relay either directly from that connection, or via a darlington driver (amplifier). An OMRON G5V-1 has a coil resistance of 960 ohms, and will draw less than 15mA when connected directly. I doubt that the dreaded CANBUS would detect the small increase in current. The disadvantages of using a relay are the need to run an extra wire to control the relay, and the Omron relay would need housing in a box as it is designed for PCB mounting. I have used both the darlington driver, and the sensitive Omron relay methods for special situations in my PVC. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 ..for Alan's suggestion, a cheap 'Canbus Relay' such as this from eBay would probably suffice with minor adaptation. https://tinyurl.com/Canswitch I was going to use one myself, but adopted the manual switch method for its (perceived) advantages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2017-12-31 6:21 PM Thanks Derek. Does your Rapido have the radio controls on the steering wheel? No - and as I never drive with the radio on it would be another useless embellishment. ;-) Rapido 'pre-wires’ for a reversing camera, but I don’t know if that just means running a cable suitable for a Waeco single-lens camera from the motorhome’s rear wall to the dashboard or if they also install the signal-cable I mentioned. You could try contacting this company http://www.2seetv.co.uk/index.html as forum-member “AliB” is involved with it and has provided a lot of valuable advice here in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 1, 2018 Author Share Posted January 1, 2018 Deneb - 2017-12-31 9:00 PM.....................I believe the Connect units are supplied with instructions, but the usual method is to splice into the two Can cables behind the OBD diagnostic socket. This is quite easy on the X290 as the socket is clipped into a bracket under the dashboard fuse box and can be easily removed to reveal the wiring loom, unlike the X250 which has it built into the body computer. Think of the various control modules on the vehicle as computers. They are all linked together through a local network that allows them to exchange information with one another. The Canm8 unit is another computer which when connected to the network is also able to receive information from the vehicle (such as the reverse gear selected signal) and convert it to a form that can be used by supplementary equipment overa normal 12 volt circuit. Alanb - 2017-12-31 10:27 PM The CANM8 is perhaps an elegant plug and play solution, but faced with Brian's problem, I think that I would be tempted to tap into the reversing lamp connection and drive a relay either directly from that connection, or via a darlington driver (amplifier). An OMRON G5V-1 has a coil resistance of 960 ohms, and will draw less than 15mA when connected directly. I doubt that the dreaded CANBUS would detect the small increase in current. The disadvantages of using a relay are the need to run an extra wire to control the relay, and the Omron relay would need housing in a box as it is designed for PCB mounting. I have used both the darlington driver, and the sensitive Omron relay methods for special situations in my PVC. Alan Thank you Deneb and Alan. I can only reply that there is, I'm afraid, but one problem. You are both fluent in Greek, and I am not! :-D What, for example, is an "OBD diagnostic socket", what does it look like (so I can recognise it), and what technically is meant by "splice into" the "two CAN cables", and how would I know which of the cables are the CAN cables? I "kind of" understand the principles of the CAN system, but only at a visual level, with various "nodes" talking to each other via a pair of interconnecting wires - the bus. However, beyond being able to visualise that as a graphic, I cannot visualise how the parts communicate, how each part knows when it is expected to respond/ignore/transmit, or how a new node can "know" what it is supposed to do once installed or, I guess more importantly, whether and/or how one should splice into the bus - for example does one do this with the bus "live" or must it be shut down? If it must be shut down, how? See what I mean about Greek? :-D To Alan, I can only say that I can't at present even recognise the reversing lamp cables at the rear light cluster. I know even less of OMRON relays and darlington drivers than I know of CAN bus systems - which is very little indeed! :-) All I have is a tight bunch of wires disappearing into a multi-pin connector plug on the back of the standard Fiat cluster, with no clue as to which wire feeds which lamp. If it stays dry enough to disconnect and remove the light cluster I will open it to see if I can find a spare spade terminal I can connect to but, from the manual, I suspect the connections from the corresponding socket to the individual lamps are galvanised pressings bonded to the rear of the cluster with no wires/spade connectors from which to connect. If I can read through from the socket terminals to the plug terminals I should then be able to work out which wire connects to which lamp - but I need a dry spell for that! As to using a relay, I have a sneaky suspicion that the reversing signal wire has a smaller current draw than the switching current for a 12V relay. It does not power the monitor or the camera, it merely "instructs" the monitor to switch from the rear view camera to the reversing camera. When there are no Volts on this cable the monitor defaults to the rear view camera, when volts are present the reversing camera is used. However, I have no information as to what current is involved. I understand that others have tapped into the reversing lamp feed and that the CAN bus has not been affected. However, I don't know if the CAN buses in their vehicles are the equivalent of the one installed in my X290. In short, I'm very reluctant to fiddle with something I don't understand unless I am comfortable that I have clear instructions on how/where to do so, as I have an uneasy feeling that getting it wrong just might turn out to be very expensive! Thanks guys, but I'm afraid you're technically both way over my head! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-01-01 11:57 AM ...What, for example, is an "OBD diagnostic socket", what does it look like (so I can recognise it), and what technically is meant by "splice into" the "two CAN cables", and how would I know which of the cables are the CAN cables? The location of the OBD socket on a LHD Ducato X290 is shown here https://www.outilsobdfacile.com/location-plug-connector-obd/Fiat-ducato-3 Me, I definitely would not play about with the OBD socket’s cabling, but I would do what you plan and check what connectors there are within the rear-light cluster. If I felt that a DIY installation to automatically switch the camera image from 'rear-view’ to ‘reversing look down’ carried a real risk, I’d much prefer to control the selection manually (which I assume would be practicable with your system). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 This 2015 forum thread may help http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Reversing-light-wire-how-to-find-it-/37519/ It contains a link to a 2012 Fiat Forum thread https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/314672-reversing-light-wire-colour.html that now has a 2017 update posting relating to Euro 6 Ducatos and identifying the colour (pale grey with light green tracer) of the reversing-light cable at the rear-light unit. The poster (JamesODundee) said he was planning to power a wireless reversing-camera from that cable, but as he has only posted once to that forum there’s no knowing whether the plan worked OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 1, 2018 Author Share Posted January 1, 2018 Thank you on both counts Derek. I'm humbled by your internet search prowess, I'd only found one of those! :-) I'm inclined to agree re manual switching of the reverse function. I'll give the auto connection a go and, if I can't make that work, I'll install a switch accept manual operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 I just typed a long and fairly detailed explanation of the pin-outs on the diagnostic socket, the cable colours, how to access the loom behind it and which wires on the Canm8 device connect to the diagnostic loom or elsewhere. Then I lost it all when I inadvertently closed the page in my browser whilst attempting to switch to another tab! I'm afraid I've rather lost the will to live for now and can't summon the enthusiasm to do it all again, unless you are really interested. The bottom line however was that, whilst the Canm8 unit will send a 12v supply when reverse gear is selected, you would either have to bare (strip) a section of the insulation from two of the wires to the diagnostic connector and feed the Canm8 cables into them, or remove two of the pins from the diagnostic connector and replace them after crimping the Canm8 cables in to them along with the existing wiring. If you are not comfortable with that, you are probably better to look at one of alternative solutions suggested. If you want me to type the description again though, let me know and I'll try again when I have more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 Robbo - 2017-12-31 5:46 PM I'm sure Lenny has recently installed a reversing camera on his new Hymer. Suggest you PM him and ask. He might even invite you round as he lives in your neck of the woods 8-) I notice that Lenny described the modifications he has made to his latest Hymer motorhome in this MHFun thread https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/lennys-modding-the-new-gin-palace.150824/page-2 I’m not sure if he has fitted three separate cameras or one twin-lens camera and a second camera for viewing the grey-water drain-outlet. But he says "Reverse cam selected when reverse gear engaged” (with rear-view and drain-outlet images selected via manual switches) so he should be able to say how he obtained automatic camera operation for reversing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 Brian, I did say that my use of the darlington driver and sensitive "Omron" relay were employed in special situations. Omron is a brand name, nothing more sinister. Derek has now provided the colour code for the reverse lamp on your vehicle, and if you couple that with the relay unit linked to by Robinhood you have a workable proposition. Regarding tapping into existing wiring you may wish to consider using "Scotchlok" or similar insulation displacement connectors. I am aware that they are not popular with some forum members, but I have used them and I do believe that there uses. You may wish to note that IDC connectors are used in the computer industry. I am quite a novice regarding the CANBUS system. We have two cars fitted with it, but they were only aquired two years ago. My engineering background suggests that the system would be unlikely to detect the small additional current drain made by connecting a relay in parallel with the reversing lamp. I would however be cautious about using the reverse gear signal to the radio mentioned by Derek, to signal into anything other than another electronic device. That comes down to the question as to what is current drawn by the reversing signal input of your camera system. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 1, 2018 Author Share Posted January 1, 2018 Deneb - 2018-01-01 2:38 PM I just typed a long and fairly detailed explanation of the pin-outs on the diagnostic socket, the cable colours, how to access the loom behind it and which wires on the Canm8 device connect to the diagnostic loom or elsewhere. Then I lost it all when I inadvertently closed the page in my browser whilst attempting to switch to another tab! I'm afraid I've rather lost the will to live for now and can't summon the enthusiasm to do it all again, unless you are really interested. The bottom line however was that, whilst the Canm8 unit will send a 12v supply when reverse gear is selected, you would either have to bare (strip) a section of the insulation from two of the wires to the diagnostic connector and feed the Canm8 cables into them, or remove two of the pins from the diagnostic connector and replace them after crimping the Canm8 cables in to them along with the existing wiring. If you are not comfortable with that, you are probably better to look at one of alternative solutions suggested. If you want me to type the description again though, let me know and I'll try again when I have more time. Thank you for this, and for taking the trouble to prepare a detailed reply. Oh, how I understand about losing the lot as you describe! :-D I think you are right, and what you describe in brief are things I would not be comfortable attempting, so please don't spend any more time on the description. I'm sure you're right, and I'm grateful for your time, but I don't think I'll be doing that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 Brian, before you jump I'd be inclined to do a little more research, especially if you intend to install a radio which will work with the steering wheel controls (which, as you have them, would be sensible, but will need a bit of care in selection of the radio unit). It is almost a given that this will require an aftermarket interface between the controls and the radio (and the other radio connections), and (as you imply above) this should be able to output a reverse signal (that you would be able to "jump" behind the radio - the signal should be outwith/beyond any Canbus implication). Something akin to this is the requirement, though I would be careful to make enquiries before committing. http://www.connects2.co.uk/Product/ProductItem/CTSFA019.2 (If you look at the installation instructions the reverse signal is on the (separate) purple wire. Edited to add - this signal is primarily provided here to provide switching to the reverse camera input on a monitor-equipped radio/naviceiver, but there is no issue in using it for your desired purposes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagey Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 sod this i will get out and look behind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 1, 2018 Author Share Posted January 1, 2018 Alanb - 2018-01-01 4:45 PM Brian, I did say that my use of the darlington driver and sensitive "Omron" relay were employed in special situations. Omron is a brand name, nothing more sinister. Derek has now provided the colour code for the reverse lamp on your vehicle, and if you couple that with the relay unit linked to by Robinhood you have a workable proposition. Regarding tapping into existing wiring you may wish to consider using "Scotchlok" or similar insulation displacement connectors. I am aware that they are not popular with some forum members, but I have used them and I do believe that there uses. You may wish to note that IDC connectors are used in the computer industry. I am quite a novice regarding the CANBUS system. We have two cars fitted with it, but they were only aquired two years ago. My engineering background suggests that the system would be unlikely to detect the small additional current drain made by connecting a relay in parallel with the reversing lamp. I would however be cautious about using the reverse gear signal to the radio mentioned by Derek, to signal into anything other than another electronic device. That comes down to the question as to what is current drawn by the reversing signal input of your camera system. Alan Thanks again Alan. I'll have a play with my multi-meter on a test rig I've set up in the van, to see what current is actually drawn by the reversing signal wire to the monitor. If I can then find a way to make a temporary (i.e.non-destructive :-)) connection into the reverse light supply I'll see if that extra current is sufficient to upset the CAN bus. I'm fairly hopeful that it won't be, as the reversing lamps are standard 21W tungsten, one each side. I don't know how Fiat have distributed their ECUs, but am supposing that in the interests of economy and simplicity they may have allocated one node for the whole of the rear lights supply, rather than one for each side and one for the high level brake light. The Fiat manual kind of suggests simplicity, as a failed external lamp only brings up a warning light even on the (top of the range) reconfigurable multifunction display, with no discrete message to identify which lamp in which cluster has failed. The rear view system is rated at 10W (0.83A) max, with the cameras rated at 1W (0.08A). Be interesting to see what the signal wire takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 1, 2018 Author Share Posted January 1, 2018 Robinhood - 2018-01-01 5:22 PM Brian, before you jump I'd be inclined to do a little more research, especially if you intend to install a radio which will work with the steering wheel controls (which, as you have them, would be sensible, but will need a bit of care in selection of the radio unit). It is almost a given that this will require an aftermarket interface between the controls and the radio (and the other radio connections), and (as you imply above) this should be able to output a reverse signal (that you would be able to "jump" behind the radio - the signal should be outwith/beyond any Canbus implication).................. Thanks again Robin. I will take the van to a local car radio specialist for them to fit the radio, and am intending to take their advice on what to fit. All I want is a CD/DAB radio, so the reversing signal will, in any case, be redundant for that purpose. I'm aware that the Ducato makes radio installation more complicated because it has no ACC position on the ignition lock, which requires another gizmo for some radio brands. After I've played a bit more with the camera system to test it, and finished physically installing it, I'll have another word with them to see if they're happy to connect in the reversing signal for the monitor. I'm fairly confident that they will, so I'll just tuck it over behind the radio slots for them to pick up when they do their bit. In the meantime I can activate the reversing camera manually from a button on the monitor. It's a bit less convenient, but it will only be temporary. That'll give me Plan A (operated from the steering wheel contact), Plan B (operating from the rear light cluster), and Plan C (manual operation via a switch or the monitor). That looks like a plan to me! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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