Brian Kirby Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Matrix Meanderer - 2018-01-15 7:44 PM Thanks for comments from Brian and others. As mentioned the dealer is saying they expect about 2 years life for this battery, the same as the Adria mechanical warranty. The vehicles are imported without a habitation battery, the UK dealer supplies and fits that. I have no idea (apart from cost saving) as to why the dealer fitted the Lucas battery, but they clearly did this for all new Adrias in 2015. My battery compartment is limited but it will take the Exide ES950 G85 Gel battery recommended by Tayna. So that's my plan. Hasta la vista 8-) I defer to Allan's more detailed knowledge of the difference in price and the dealer's probable understanding of the quality of what he had fitted. The Exide gel sounds a good plan as an alternative, especially as your charger can only be set for (basically) conventional flooded or gel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 aandncaravan - 2018-01-16 8:37 PM ...The advanced Powerframe technology used exclusively by the Varta LFD90 and the Bosch L5 batteries, does not gas at all... That may well be the case IN NORMAL USE, but the Varta and Bosch batteries can both be fitted with a vent-tube and, for a battery installed within a motorhome’s habitation area, if a battery can be fitted with a vent-tube to discharge outside the vehicle fumes/acid that MIGHT be produced IF a problem occurs and the battery starts to gas, logically a vent-tube should be fitted. Vent-tubes are not fitted to gel and AGM batteries, which is undoubtedly one of the reasons why they’ve been chosen by motorhome converters when the leisure-battery is to be installed inside the motorhome. If Ian were to go down the wet-acid (‘lead’) route, the probabiity is that a battery suitable for his Adria could accept a vent-tube and, when the tube was fitted, it would be necessary to arrange for it to be led outside the vehicle. When I used to be involved in IT systems analysis the first and most important thing to do was to prioritise a system’s requirements. In Ian’s case, before considering whether a wet-acid or gel battery should be chosen, he needs to decide if the replacement leisure-battery should be housed in the "compartment with the control box and solar panel regulator in a seat box in the lounge area” where the present Lucas AGM battery is. Comments above suggest that the available ‘floor-area’ space in this compartment for a battery is quite restricted (which might explain why Ian’s dealer fitted the short/narrow Lucas AGM battery and why Ian has favoured an Exide G85) and if that’s so only shortish, narrowish batteries will fit straight in. If the G85’s length/width dimensions only just allow it to fit in the Adria’s battery compartment, extolling the wonders of a 353mm-long Varta LFD90 or Bosch L5 battery won’t help because those batteries are too big to fit (and their terminal configuration is also vice versa to the Lucas battery’s). If Ian were prepared to accept an approach where, instead of replacing the Lucas AGM battery on a simple size-for-size basis, the Adria’s leisure-battery were to be relocated elsewhere (or the present compartment were to be modified to be able to accept a longer battery) there would be much more choice of battery and deciding between wet-acid or gel would be more strightforward. As things stand, if the 330mm length of an Exide G85 represents a maximum for the Adria’s battery-compartment, I believe the largest capacity Varta LFD or Bosch L5 battery that would fit would be a 75Ah version - and let’s not forget that Ian’s original wish was for a 110Ah battery. This really comes down to what Ian wants to do. The indications are that no battery with a capacity anywhere near 110Ah will directly replace the Lucas AGM one, so Ian’s choices are to pick a lower-capacity battery with dimensions that will allow it to be fitted in the Adria’s battery-compartment (eg. an Exide G85) or to have changes made to allow a larger-capacity battery to be installed. Matrix Meanderer - 2018-01-16 7:41 PM ...So - final suggestions "lead" or "gel"? :-( Unless you MUST have a battery with an Ah capacity above 85, if you want a relatively simple swap IMHO you might as well settle on an Exide ES950. You might find that the cabling to the present battery will need altering, but that should be all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Derek, Gel and AGM batteries don't have vent tubes fitted but they still have vents that expel gas. We had an email last year from an owner, with 2 x AGM batteries less than 18 months old, that said :- "The trip to Spain with long driving hours revealed a number of issues; one of which was a sulphur smell in the van......". One of the biggest battery research evaluations ever carried out revealed that 33% of all Gel and AGM batteries in the survey failed from drying out. That is they lost enough fluid to destroy them. Logic suggests that an additional percentage vented out fluid, but not to the point of destruction. Gel and AGM batteries clearly do vent out fluid and are designed to. On tests we have carried out with Powerframe technology batteries, like the Varta LFD90, they did not vent any fluid even when charged at 16v. Yet AGM and Gel batteries subjected to the same test started venting gas at just 15.3v. Operational temperatures exceeding 25 degrees can also cause Gel and AGM batteries to lose fluid, whereas a Powerframe battery doesn't. Varta and Bosch don't just claim they lose ZERO fluid and are maintenance free, they claim "absolutely maintenance free" to distance their product from inferior batteries which claim to be maintenance free but are not. Varta and Bosch Powerframe batteries are streets ahead of Gel and AGM at keeping fluid inside the battery during use, especially during abnormal usage. Fit a vent if you wish, but then you should definitely consider the same for a Gel. Never seen a Gel battery manufacturer tech spec stating Zero fluid loss. They usually quote very low fluid loss. It is usually the Battery Retailers that make statements like 'they never lose any fluid', which doesn't match tech specs from the big 4, and maybe where the myth comes from. Sorry to disagree, but a battery that doesn't vent any fluid, even in ABNORMAL circumstances and is safer inside a MH than a Gel or AGM under all situations, just doesn't need a vent pipe. There are vents on Powerframe batteries, but purely to release pressure inside the battery so they don't explode. You can put a Powerframe battery under severe duress to make it gas, like charge it at 19volts, but under the same conditions a Gel or AGM battery would have been gasping out a stream of fumes long before the Varta Powerframe did. In fact, it is more likely a Gel or AGM battery will be moving onto the next phase of battery explosion, before the Varta LFD90 has started losing fluid.. Having seen a few Adrias now, I have assumed that physical space isn't an issue when it comes to an LFD90.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Allan I’d fit a vent-tube to a Varta LFD battery whether it were installed inside a motorhome’s living-area or in the engine compartment. I’d do this a) because it’s possible and b) because I believe it would potentially be beneficial. If a gel or AGM battery had the capability to accept a vent-tube I’d also fit a tube, but doing this is not practicable. I can’t see how this ’technical’ arguing helps Ian. You say "Having seen a few Adrias now, I have assumed that physical space isn't an issue when it comes to an LFD90..” and Ian says "My battery compartment is limited but it will take the Exide ES950 G85 Gel battery.” Presumably Ian knows how large his motorhome’s battery compartment is? If Ian’s Adria’s battery compartment can accommodate a battery 353mm(long) x 175mm(wide), he could fit a wet-acid Varta LFD90 or a gel Exide G80, and if it won’t he can’t. Ian was leaning towards fitting a gel Exide G85, and if that will fit in his Adria’s battery compartment a Varta LFD75 also should. Which battery Ian eventually chooses will have no impact on me. If a Varta LFD90 battery can be fitted and Ian chooses a LFD90 but decides not to fit a vent-tube to it, why should that concern me? From the information Ian has provided it seems that replacement using an Exide G85 would be the most straightforward approach if his Adria’s compartment won’t house a larger battery - though plainly a Varta LFD75 would be considerably cheaper to buy. If I owned the same make/model/year motorhome as Ian and its original Lucas AGM battery was failing, I don’t know what decision I’d take regarding battery-replacement. However there would be a difference as whichever approach I finally decided on would not have involved forum guidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 This discussion rages on but if it were my van I would opt for the least expensive but still reliable battery. Moving on from the past, but not without first learning from it, is part of life's experience and my perception currently is that a very good proven durable 85 ah lead/acid battery that both takes and holds a charge is much more useful than a theoretical 110 ah battery that does neither very well. On that basis I would opt for the Bosch / Varta Powerframe lead acid battery and fit a vent tube, if the facility exists, even if that means drilling a small hole to let it through the floor and sealing around the tube at it's exit point. I would also buy in the UK where the warranty is easier to understand and to activate if needed and buy from a battery specialist rather than a show or from a motorhome dealer. End of story! PS We had a total leisure battery failure many years ago in Spain and to tide us over I bought a used car battery at a car boot sale for 10 euros and that worked remarkably well as a get us home option! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrix Meanderer Posted January 17, 2018 Author Share Posted January 17, 2018 Gentlemen Interesting discussion thanks. I have remeasured the battery compartment and the maximum length I can fit is 355mm so the Varta LFD90 will fit as will the more expensive Exide ES950. but this does give me a bit more fitting space. The Bosch L5013 is a good middle cost choice. I'll mull it over whilst enjoying the sunshine here in Almeria :-D Thanks again for an interesting forum discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 As far as I’m aware the Bosch L5013 and Varta LFD90 are technically and physically identical - the only real difference being that the Bosch product is generally advertised at a higher asking-price. This advert for the Bosch battery carries both the L5013 and the LFD90 identifiers. https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-90ah-bosch-powerframe-leisure-battery-l5013-lfd90/ (Allan will be able to confirm if there’s any difference between the two other than the brand-name and pricing.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Derek, yes agree with you, the Bosch L5013 is the same battery as the Varta LFD90, identical spec and made on the same production line, however it often has a better Warranty. Ian, You lucky devil, enjoying the Spanish sunshine. It's a howling, bitter cold wind here today. Enjoy your holiday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrix Meanderer Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 Thanks Allan and Derek. Will buy the one with the best warranty and price. Yes it's a little windy down here on the Costas as well today but around 19 degrees and sunny, actually 23 degrees inside the MH :-D Well worth the long drive south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 The Bosch L5013 and Varta LFD90 both seem to be advertised with a 4-year warranty, but the Varta is usually priced £10-£15 cheaper than the Bosch equivalent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeJJ Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 Hi, Just for completeness if others reread this thread, as I have done. I purchased a Varta LFD90 today and also telephoned Johnson Controls. The advice was unequivocal; the battery must be fitted with a vent pipe and the plug for the other end is supplied moulded into a terminal cover (which can be snapped off in order to be used) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJP Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 This place is competitively priced in Castillon (50 miles from Valencia) https://www.rebacas.com/ Tayna Batteries in Abergele will deliver to Spain for £10 per battery (you need to negotiate that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrix Meanderer Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 Thanks again. Mike is correct that the Varta/Exide powerframe batteries do need external venting, also confirmed by Tayna batteries. Looks like I'll have to revert to the sealed gel battery for my replacement. (^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Would it be an insurmountable problem to drill through the floor of the battery compartment a small hole through which a vent-tube could be led to exit beneath the vehicle? Obviously you’d need to asses the practicability of doing this and whether there’d be a risk of causing damage (like drilling into wiring, gas or water pipework, or a water tank) but if you want to save some money the option’s worth considering. Otherwise you’ll probably be looking at an Exide G80, or a Sonnenschein GF12065Y or GF12072Y. I don’t know if it will matter, but the configuration of the terminals of the Exide G80 and Sonnenschein GF12065Y batteries (+ teminal on right) is apparently the opposite way round to that of a Lucas LSLC85-12. (+ terminal on left). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Matrix, we deal with Tayna a lot, they are 2 miles from our repair workshop, and the people on the desk are purely Sales people with little knowledge about the products they sell, just basic general knowledge. They have no idea how different the Powerframe battery technology is and constantly try and tell people that their own branded batteries are superior, etc. I guarantee if you rang up and asked them what technology a LFD90 uses to prevent fluid loss, they wouldn't have a clue. I know as I have asked them when they have tried to sell me their inferior Powerline batteries. They will also tell you that a Gel and AGM battery lose no fluid, which just isn't true. Tayna products are cheap and service good, but like all front line staff these days they are primarily sales people. In our dealings with Johnson/Varta design technicians we have learnt a lot and they obviously know their stuff. But the guys who answer the phone on the help desk do not have the same knowledge. Time and again we would be given an incorrect response and only when we got the private line of a true techy did we start to get accurate information. I would expect anyone on the telephone team to give a 'safe' response where they don't have the detailed knowledge. Our advice comes from the discussions with the design team, not just a so called 'battery specialist', plus our own experience. It is up to you what you believe, but please don't assume anyone working at a battery retailer knows their products, because in our experience they don't That was ably demonstrated recently by a senior person at one of the biggest battery retailers in the UK when he began arguing a Technical case for the companies Lithium batteries on one of these threads. He didn't even know that Lithium Ion described a technology used by a group of batteries that had differing characteristics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrix Meanderer Posted February 5, 2018 Author Share Posted February 5, 2018 FINAL COMMENT :-D I have just ordered a Bosch L5013 from Tayna Batteries and the cost, delivered to the Spanish Costas is £120. That's including the £15.50 delivery charge. I placed the order after having the battery checked on site by a very helpful spanish motorhome/caravan company who were pretty busy with British van repairs on our campsite. The mechanic checked the battery and confirmed that it was, as expected, "totalmente muerto". He then quoted me 330 Euros (£292) to supply and fit an AGM battery of undefined make. But he didn't charge me for the diagnostics. So job done and original question answered. Batteries in Spain from a spanish supplier are MUCH dearer than a UK supplied and shipped out here. Delivery is taking 4 to 5 days so by next weekend the MH will be in good shape to stay on aires overnight on the way home. For all readers in the UK you'll be pleased to know that it's cool (12 degrees) and wet here today. Adios :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 That 12 degrees might not be warm, but it's just 3 degrees here today!! Can I suggest you take great care when swapping the battery that you don't mix up the polarity as Pilote (and Adria!!) often use the opposite cable colours to the UK. Typically, Brown is the negative - and Black (some times Blue) is Positive +, so suggest before you start you put Red tape around the positive + cable and Black tape around the negative - cable. Get it wrong even for a fraction of a second and you risk damaging the Power controller box and losing all 12v around the vehicle. Good idea to retract the step before you start, just in case, because if things go wrong you won't have to drive with it sticking out.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 And, don't forget the vent tube! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 aandncaravan - 2018-02-05 2:33 PM That 12 degrees might not be warm, but it's just 3 degrees here today!! Can I suggest you take great care when swapping the battery that you don't mix up the polarity as Pilote (and Adria!!) often use the opposite cable colours to the UK. Typically, Brown is the negative - and Black (some times Blue) is Positive +, so suggest before you start you put Red tape around the positive + cable and Black tape around the negative - cable. Get it wrong even for a fraction of a second and you risk damaging the Power controller box and losing all 12v around the vehicle. Good idea to retract the step before you start, just in case, because if things go wrong you won't have to drive with it sticking out.. Regarding getting the polarity wrong, it’s worth highlighting (again) that the terminal configuration of a Bosch L5013 battery https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/bosch/l5013/ apparently is the opposite way round to the terminal configuration of the original Lucas AGM battery https://www.tayna.co.uk/golf-batteries/lucas/lslc85-12/ Depending on how the Lucas battery was originally cabled, this might complicate installing the Bosch replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrix Meanderer Posted February 6, 2018 Author Share Posted February 6, 2018 aandncaravan - 2018-02-05 2:33 PM That 12 degrees might not be warm, but it's just 3 degrees here today!! Can I suggest you take great care when swapping the battery that you don't mix up the polarity as Pilote (and Adria!!) often use the opposite cable colours to the UK. Typically, Brown is the negative - and Black (some times Blue) is Positive +, so suggest before you start you put Red tape around the positive + cable and Black tape around the negative - cable. Get it wrong even for a fraction of a second and you risk damaging the Power controller box and losing all 12v around the vehicle. Good idea to retract the step before you start, just in case, because if things go wrong you won't have to drive with it sticking out.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Allan and Derek for the helpful advice but relax! Fortunately my battery connectors are the large coloured (red + and blue -) quick release type so absolutely no chance of a wrong connection. There is also sufficient slack in both cables to allow me to fix to the new battery terminals without stressing the cables. I also don't have a fancy retractable step to worry about, the Fiat low profile chassis makes it easy to get on board on almost all pitches. Battery dispatched by Tayna and on its way :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Matrix Meanderer - 2018-02-06 11:12 AM Fortunately my battery connectors are the large coloured (red + and blue -) quick release type so absolutely no chance of a wrong connection. :-D Famous last words? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 To back up our assertion that Gel and AGM batteries lose fluid, we have attached a Data sheet from Banner to our AGM battery webpage that shows that the Banner 59201 AGM loses >1 gram of fluid per Ah in use, making it a low loss battery, not zero loss. See.: http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/agm-batteries.php You will note that the Varta and Bosch web pages state zero fluid loss, not low loss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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