Advice on buying process rqd..

[Burgo]

Hi, A bit of a plea for help to try and help us missing something important / making a bigger mistake than normal! Could you help us, please, by giving our thought processes over the purchase of a new motorhome a sanity check? We’re trying hard to work out what we really need (rather than what we think we want) so all inputs would be very gratefully received as we are newbies and would value any comments...

 

Firstly a bit of background: Up front, before anyone says it, yes we are very, very aware that received wisdom is not to buy new the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd time but we’re in the fortunate position of being able to take a lump sum from a pension scheme to help fund our purchase, along with savings. We only really have this one off lump sum and can’t really see the budget to do a series of trade-ins before buying possible new. A further complication is that lump sums like this are not tax free in Spain where we live, and so with this “once in a lifetime” windfall opportunity we are looking to make the best choice we can.

 

Used vehicles here have high resale values as rust, damp etc are basically non issues. On average, a used van around 2-3 years old is only around €5 - €10,000 less than the cost of new one, but all we’ve seen have done on average around 65,000km (approx. 40,500 miles) but then don’t have much if any of the makers warranty and only a dealers guarantee (which can be somewhat lacking in coverage). Private sales are few and far between and are mostly much older vans.

 

We don’t really want to go for too much of an older model, and feel anything going back more than few years starts to get into the pre Euro6 engines / Halogen rather than LED lighting / slightly older build technology & materials era.

 

So as a result we are minded to try and go for a new van with full warranty, etc.. but we are a bit limited in dealers where we live, with only 3 within a 525 km radius with Sunlight, Dethleffs, Benimar & Adria being supported makers.

 

We have a business commitment for the next 4 years which is based in southern Spain which is where we live, but are fortunate that this is mostly admin which can be done on the road, apart from July – August when we need to be at home. We’re both newbies to motorhoming, but have spent a fair time on yacht charters so are pretty au fait with living in smaller accommodation in challenging circumstances, cooking on small stoves, using small toilets / showers etc. We’re both active and pretty fit still and are looking to tour locally around Spain & Portugal initially over Autumn to Spring, then explore more of France and Eastern Europe in a few years time when we retire fully.

 

There’s just the two of us, plus 3 rescue dogs (one medium sized and two terrier sized) so we don’t really need anything too large, though having looked at PVCs have discounted these, so have set a max length of around the 7.5 m mark. We’d rather have more light and space around the lounge and cab area than a pull down double bed up top which we wouldn’t be using, so have discounted over cabs (or Cappuccinos as they are called here) and kind of discounted anything over a twin bed + occasional single size.

 

We’d like a fair amount of garage space as we would like to carry a couple of bikes, as well as skis for winter and diving kit for summer trips.

 

We have looked at French & Transverse bed layouts and don’t want the “climbing over the partner” hassle (also we’re both relatively tall so a cut off corner doesn’t work one for one or the other). We’ve rented a Sunlight T67 and liked the twin beds set up with the filler as a double, but felt that wasted some space under the filler and also needed the ladder. Also we’re used to having a bedside table for water / phone / etc so missed that – as well as missed hanging space. As a result we are strongly minded to go for an Island bed layout.

 

We have shortlisted the Dethleffs Globebus T7 at 6.90 m at the moment and have had a good look at one, lying on the bed, sitting on the loo, etc and it seems to tick all our boxes. Also, it should have the payload we need as the spec gives a MIRO of 2895kg (with driver, fuel, half tank water & 1 gas bottle) which gives a payload of 604kg when plated at 3499kg. Looking at the specs if we added an awning, TV & Antenna, Reversing Cam, Bike Rack, Solar Panel and a few other bits this would eat up another 80kg or more leaving us with around 500 – 520 kg payload – though we do know the acid test will be on the weighbridge for this (if isn’t sufficient that it can be up-plated to 3850kg).

 

And that’s about where we are – If anyone has any help or advice they can give or can see anything that we haven’t thought about or missed it would really, really help us. Thanks in advance..

[tonyg3nwl]

Rent one for a few weeks before committing yourselves.

 

Chose to do so in the worst possible weather conditions, and chose the most difficult terrain, where there are no decent roads. Load it with all the junk that others say you must have, including the proverbial kitchen sink.

 

if you still want to commit a fortune, buy brand new and kiss goodbye to the vat, as you drive off the forecourt, drive to the next dealer and ask him for a trade in value. Be prepared for a shock.

 

Good luck and enjoy your new toy.

 

tonyg3nwl.

[mikebeaches]

Well you've certainly set out a comprehensive picture of your thoughts and ideas, which is always a good sign.

 

We are in the camp that views new vans - as opposed to used - as a good thing if you can afford it. Admittedly, we started with a second-hand one, which we only kept for six months and we're now on our second van purchased brand new. The first new one served us well for over five years, and we're 18 months into the second with absolutely no regrets. When we traded for a second new van, depreciation on the previous new one worked at at an average of just over £1,000pa across the more than 5 years, which we thought was OK. Oh and by the way, we lost shedloads on the original 'used' van we only kept for 6 months!

 

For me one of the advantages of 'new' is the driving experience. At the end of the day, motorhomes are based on a commercial vehicle chassis, but the brakes, steering and (to a lesser extent) suspension have all be improving significantly in recent years. And assuming you want to cover large distances I'd have thought that is important - it certainly is to me.

 

Next thing to say about choice of vans and layout - there is always some sort of compromise. The trick is to work out which compromises you can comfortably live with. Again, the fact that you've already hired a van should give you confidence in that direction.

 

All of the brands you have mentioned are reputable, though I think (but stand to be corrected) that Benimar is the only one that manufactures vans in Spain. Benimar is part of the European giant Trigano Group. It's difficult to say whether Spanish manufacture would be an advantage to you or not - I'd assume accessing spares might be more straightforward?

 

We have a fixed-twin singles layout in an panel van conversion that works well for us, but it sounds as though you'd prefer a coachbuilt which would certainly provide greater living space, especially if you go up to 7.5m in length.

 

Whatever you decide, good luck!

 

Mike

[Brian Kirby]

As you say, the Globebus T7 is a 7.0 metre long van which, while not extreme, is not exactly compact. It is only 2.2 meters wide, so a little more amenable to minor roads that "regular vans". One thing you haven't mentioned is your familiarity with driving larger vehicles, and where you think you might go. If you see yourselves sticking to reasonable roads and spending little time off the beaten track it should be fine, but if you think you may want to explore remoter areas you may find it gets a bit tight in places. It is then a question of how you feel about that.

 

My own view (not universally accepted :-)), is that the best van is the smallest in which you can live comfortably. Inside space is fine, but it comes at the expense of external bulk, and external bulk can be a bit of a heart stopper when trying to negotiate one's way through small towns/villages - especially those with 1st floor balconies overhanging the (not very wide) street. :-D

 

On payload and ordering at 3,850kg, I'm assuming your driving licence cater for this? If it does, I think I'd be inclined to order at 3,850kg from new, which would give some leeway on payload, and plate down to 3,500kg at a later date should that prove necessary.

 

On re-plating, have you enquired about the procedure for doing this on a Spanish registered vehicle. It is fairly straightforward in UK, but we seem to have the most relaxed approach to this of the neighbouring EU states.

[colin]

From what I can see of specs on Dethleffs website the length is 7m but it seems to show wheelbase as 3.8m, which seems odd. If correct this is getting a longish rear overhang, so would want to know the actual axle weights to ascertain the rear axle can take some load.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

The space in the lenght and the width to suit the road unless you drive in special convoy. As the fair trucks. Brian explained it perfectly about the 3850 fiat light option which i brought to light on this site. He downsized to knaus box star 600 for good reasons.I am in the same position since my partner as a driver will go to 6mtr instead of the present 7.54 mtr because of age and the problems related to. The flwg has been considered: burstner IT590 travel van.City car 540 or 600 being a van. A pop up roof is for young people.

[Den]

I’m with those who say New.

Should you have a problem you should have the backing of the supplier.

I think we are up to No 8.

Some regrets. Going to big is the main one. Then downsizing to small.

Later this year we’ll pay Hayes another visit.

Great to deal with and a second to none back up.

Good luck and enjoy.

[Geeco]

Hi Ian, if your location for the next few years is Spain then I would suggest you consider purchasing a MH that is supported in Spain. This will make any warranty repairs much easier. While my Auto-trail is sold in Australia the selling dealer was a long way from my home. I negotiated with the importer to have a local MH specialist workshop carry out any warranty repairs. While it has been pretty much trouble free it did make life easier when I did need to have small items rectified. As the climate in Southern Spain is very different to UK etc and not too dissimilar to my location you should also consider specifying a refrigerator with the "tropic" rating to better cope with the higher temps. Aircon is another item I would not be without in a warm climate if you are planning to use locations with power. I purchased new as the vehicle I chose was very competitive with the price of locally made late model used MH's. Good luck with your search. Cheers,

[Burgo]

Thank you all for your feedback and advice.

To cover off a few of the points raised, we did hire the larger T67 during bad weather! It was freezing cold for the area we were in and we had very wet weather with torrential rain one night, so it certainly wasn’t a sitting out under the awning trip! Hat did give us a chance to see how well the heating worked, etc… as well as see how we worked when cooped up for a while.

 

The point’s taken re the hit when you drive off the forecourt – but TBH that’s the same with everything you buy. As soon as you leave the shop it’s second hand and worth nowhere near what you paid for it, so it’s just one of those things that is the way of the world and you have to either like it or lump it. On the plus side, as mentioned, you do get the “new” experience – and depreciation only really counts when you come to sell, and as long as you’ve kept the item for a reasonable time that does start to level off. Working in our favour is the climate here – no damp issues or rusting, so selling second hand into the UK is also probably an option if & when the time comes

 

As regards spares there is a good Hymer / Dethleffs network here – and plenty of Fiat dealers around so pretty sure that should, hopefully, be OK.

 

Fair point re going for the 3850 option straight out of the trap. I’m checking the axle weights to see exactly what the split is. No issues with the licence, as I passed my test on a car with a side valve engine and vacuum operated wipers! Re-plating is a paper work exercise and cursory inspection which is costed at €279 inc IVA (VAT) to plate at 3850kg.

 

Thanks again to everyone for replying – its all really appreciated.

[Derek Uzzell]

Photo of Globebus T7 attached

 

The 3.80m wheelbase is the same as my Ducato-based Rapido (though the Rapido is 6.49m long) and I believe you’ll find the maximum axle-weights will be 1850kg(front axle) and 2000kg(rear axle) for the standard 3500kg version AND the optional 3850kg variant.

 

There is a substantial rear overhang and there is the potential to overload the rear axle if you chose to carry really heavy kit in the large rear garage. It’s probably OK though and I note that the standard tyres are 225/75 R16C, so capable of handling a significant load.

 

Given your shopping-list and the amount of research you’ve done (and the limited number of motorhome brands marketed in Spain) the Globebus may well be your only realistic choice.

[Burgo]

The plate is:

3499 kg

5499 kg

1- 1950 kg

2- 2000 kg

 

Out of interest I've also discovered that SAWICO / AL-KO also advise a max floor load in the garage of 150kg - not sure if that is model specific or a more general restriction on their chassis mods due to this effectively being 150kg hanging on a lever of the thick end of a metre length behind the rear axle?

 

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

In belgium it is even more relaxed. There is no replating required. You can drive B licence on light or heavy chassis fiat or alko whatever plate is fixed. It is just paperwork. In case of C licence you can explore the full weight capacity of the same vehicle. Our MOT however will test always against the plate, irrespective of the licence papers B or C. So Buy upgrades in weight if cheap on the light or even a heavy fiat. That they do in belgium not sure the way in spain. It gives you a higher resell value.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

That plate in the picture is a fiat heavy cofiguration.

[colin]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2018-01-17 4:22 PM

 

That plate in the picture is a fiat heavy cofiguration.

 

The plate is for a light chassis, if it was heavy it would be 2100 front, 2400 rear.

[Derek Uzzell]

Burgo - 2018-01-17 3:29 PM

 

...Out of interest I've also discovered that SAWICO / AL-KO also advise a max floor load in the garage of 150kg - not sure if that is model specific or a more general restriction on their chassis mods due to this effectively being 150kg hanging on a lever of the thick end of a metre length behind the rear axle?

 

 

The maximum garage ‘floor load’ varies from motorhome manufacturer to manufacturer and model to model. A 150kg limit is pretty common, but larger vehicles may have a limit of over 350kg. Some really large specialised motorhomes can carry a small car inside their rear garage. It could be that Dethleffs has chosen a 150kg limit for all their low-profile designs, or that the liimit varies from model to model, but the Dethleff’s literature does not seem to define the garage weight-limit.

 

Certainly the leverage effect of putting 150kg in a Globebus T7’s garage would load up the rear axle that has ‘only’ a 2000kg maximum, and it would not enhance the motorhome’s handling either. If you were going to really load up the rear garage (say you decided at some time in the future to carry a motor-scooter) it could well be worth fitting air-bellows to the rear suspension to better deal with the rearwards weight.

[PJay]

 

 

No issues with the licence, as I passed my test on a car with a side valve engine and vacuum operated wipers!

 

My first car was a Ford Anglia,(1950 ish) side valve, and the wiper blades, where something else, !! Use to have to try to get up a rather steep hill in the rain with , with not too much lifting of the foot off the accelerator !

You have certainly done your home work, (quiet rightly so IMO)

Could you maybe buy in UK and export to Spain, would give you more choice?

I have noticed of late the Sainish are now converting from caravans to MH, when we visit Spain , so maybe in time more dealers will appear, of maybe more franchise's

Wish you luck in your search

OH! by the way Welcome to the best forum around !

PJay

 

[Will86]

Ref the photo of the Globebus T7.

 

Its proportions appear totally unbalanced and that the so called 'garage' is there merely as a selling point.

[Derek Uzzell]

A 2018 Dethleffs Globebus T7 is 6.98m long and built on a Fiat Ducato ‘camping-car' chassis with a 3800mm wheelbase.

 

The Ducato camping-car chassis is available with four different wheelbases - 3000mm, 3450mm, 3800mm or 4035mm. For a given overall length the shorter the wheelbase the tighter the turning-circle and the longer the rear overhang, whereas the longer the wheelbase the wider the turning-circle and the shorter the rear overhang

 

It takes minimal research to realise that, although a Dethleffs Globebus T7 has a significant rear overhang, there are plenty of models in other converters’ ranges that have a similar configuration. Rapido (as it happens) currently only employs the 3800mm-wheelbase chassis for models up to 6.65m long, using the 4035mm-wheelbase chassis for models longer than 6.65m. But some of the latter Rapido models are 7.49m in length (with a big rear garage) and have a longer rear overhang than a Globebus T7.

 

I think the Globebus T7 would be better built on the 4035mm-wheelbase chassis, both from a technical and appearance point of view, and I’d be prepared to put up with the larger turning-circle. But it’s quite possible that using the chassis with the longer wheelbase would impact on the present model’s interior layout. In principle there’s nothing preventing Dethleffs from choosing the 4035mm-wheelbase chassis, but in practice doing so could well compromise the T7’s interior design.

 

Ian knows what he’s doing and is aware there’s a restriction on the garage weight. The percentage of the T7 that is behind the back wheels is visually obvious, and if Ian does not find this offensive does it matter?

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Counting the two axles together is above fiat light in stage2, Prove will be given by the stage one. and any mods done by the stage 2 builder.

[Derek Uzzell]

Diving into the intenet’s depths reveals that - for at least a couple of years - Dethleffs has been producing Ducato X290-based Globebus models having as standard a maximum overall weight of 3500kg and maximum axle-weights of 1950kg(front axle) and 2000kg(rear axle) as shown on the data-plate in Ian’s photo above. An optional weight upgrade to 3850kg is offered, but I think this does not increase the 1950kg/2000kg axle-weights.

 

There is no doubt that the Ducato camping-car chassis used is the ‘light’ version. All Globebus models can be bought with a 3500kg maximum overall weight and all Globebus models have the option to upgrade that weight to 3850kg. However, besides the 3500kg/3850kg weight alternatives, two Globebus models (the i6 and i7) can be specified as having a "Fiat Ducato Maxi chassis (4250 kg)” that carries a 40kg weight penalty. The 4250kg Maxi (ie, ‘heavy’) chassis cannot be specified for the Globebus T1, T6, T7 or i1 models.

 

Although the maximum axle-weights of a Ducato X290 ‘light’ camping-car chassis are normally 1850kg(front axle) and 2000kg(rear axle), it appears that Dethleffs is either able to specify that Fiat supply them with chassis with a 1950kg front-axle maximum weight, or the extra 100kg is introduced during the conversion stage (Goldschmitt stronger springs?).

[Burgo]

Will86 - 2018-01-18 11:37 AM

 

Ref the photo of the Globebus T7.

 

Its proportions appear totally unbalanced and that the so called 'garage' is there merely as a selling point.

To be fair, that wasn't the most flattering photo as it was taken at an angle! . This is a bit more accurate - it is the T6 but it is the same size and exterior as the T7 - it just has a different internal layout with twin singles and a combined toilet & shower instead of an island bed and separate toilet & shower.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-01-18 5:36 PM............................... However, besides the 3500kg/3850kg weight alternatives, two Globebus models (the i6 and i7) can be specified as having a "Fiat Ducato Maxi chassis (4250 kg)” that carries a 40kg weight penalty. ..............

But note that these are both A class vans, with quite a price premium as a consequence.

[Brian Kirby]

Burgo - 2018-01-18 5:41 PM

 

Will86 - 2018-01-18 11:37 AM

 

Ref the photo of the Globebus T7.

 

Its proportions appear totally unbalanced and that the so called 'garage' is there merely as a selling point.

To be fair, that wasn't the most flattering photo as it was taken at an angle! . This is a bit more accurate - it is the T6 but it is the same size and exterior as the T7 - it just has a different internal layout with twin singles and a combined toilet & shower instead of an island bed and separate toilet & shower.

I share Will's reservation. The rear overhang is substantial, pointing to a quickly overloaded rear axle and some potential grounding issues. I was going to suggest you consider specifying the maxi chassis option until I discovered, as Derek points out, that there isn't one for the T7.

 

The maxi chassis would give you 2,400kg on the rear axle which, if you are prepared to live with the grounding risk (albeit slightly reduced by the heavier rear springing), should guard against overloading it.