Joe1955 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Hello,can anyone please tell me if I can tow a car with an A Frame in Europe,I know it's an issue in Spain but what about other European countries,Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Hi, and welcome to the forum. Short answer is "No, no-one can tell you," for two main reasons. 1. "Europe" is a whole lot of different countries, with their own laws, so it depends where you want to go. As you've already noted, Spain has it's own rules, so does every country. 2. Even in the UK, where it's become more common, I'm not aware that there's ever been a court ruling on the matter, which means whatever advice you get, even from experts, is only their understanding of the law. I'd certainly advise against it, unless you have a second insured driver and are prepared to uncouple and continue separately if needs be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 A frame does not exist. Only A class motorhomes A triangle was allowed for emergency. But towing a car standing on a axle not. If it is a small car youcan put it on a approved trailer, or in the garage of your A frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 monique.hubrechts@gm - 2018-02-24 4:02 PM A frame does not exist... I don’t know what the Dutch term is for an A-frame towing attachment, but what is being asked about here is as shown on these French webpages https://www.campingcar-bricoloisirs.net/towbar.html http://systeme-bleu.com/accueil/ and on the attached photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 Joe1955 - 2018-02-23 7:47 PM Hello,can anyone please tell me if I can tow a car with an A Frame in Europe,I know it's an issue in Spain but what about other European countries,Thanks in advance. The practice of one motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle (when the latter is in full working order and there is not an ‘emergency’ situation) was imported from the USA to Europe in the late-1990s and rapidly became popular with UK motorcaravanners. I’m doubtful that any European country has a specific law that prohibits an A-frame device from being used for vehicle towing, but it’s probable that many (most? all?) European countries will have laws relating to one motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle and those laws may impact on the A-frame towing method. Spain’s towing laws prohibit the A-frame towing practice, and there have been plenty of reports of UK A-framing motorcaravanners being fined there. There has been the occasional report of UK A-framing motorcaravanners being fined in Germany. http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/114-motorhome-towing/110669-fined-towing-germany.html France has motoring laws that seemingly prohibit A-framing and this has been stated authoritatively: nevertheless - to the best of my knowledge - nobody (French or ‘foreign’) has so far been prosecuted in France for A-framing. A-framing in Italy (and France) was discussed here in 2013 http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/A-frame-towing-in-Italy/30587/ In this 2013 Practical Motorhome forum thread it’s mentions that Norway does not allow A-framing. https://www.practicalmotorhome.com/forum/tech/544-changes-to-law-on-towing-with-a-frame There are only about 50 countries in Europe and, as A-framing by UK motorcaravanners has been going on for approaching 30 years, one might think the UK A-framing community might have managed to contact all of those countries by now and gained sufficient information to be able to advise on each country’s legal stance on A-framing. As that plainly has not happened, it must be concluded that UK A-framers just prefer to be in denial over the legality issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 It is allowed in th uk, sofar not any country find. In belgium only emergency at max 25 km/hr. and max of 950 kg. The towbar is not the problem. But the a frame triangle connection is critical. But law in belgium said that you may not rebuild a small car in to a trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonaldson Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 There seems to be an issue here regarding we are in the EU and Brussels says who can use an A Frame. Apparently if you have all the brakes working on the trailor whether overrun or electronically Brussels says its ok. If no brakes your on a sticky wicket unless emergency services. Spain is known to prohibit it under an rule of the Geneva convention, work that one out. If you are fined anywhere else they are going against Brussels and they need to clarify which I think they will to and fro. But they just want your money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 The A-frame issue has nothing to do with Brussels and the EU. If it did, it would be expected that there would be a European ‘directive’ that either allowed A-frame towing to be practiced in every EU country or prohibited A-frame towing in every EU country. However, where one motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle is concerned, the reality is that each EU country goes its own way, with some countries prohibiting the practice (though not necessarily using the same legal reasoning), other countries (seemingly) having no laws one way or the other and the UK (as the result of 2011 comments from a Department for Transport member with a mischievous sense of humour) tending towards an ‘it’s legal’ stance. The Geneva Conventions are rules that apply to warfare. You are probably thinking of the Vienna Convention that the DforT comments refer to: "The use of A-frames in other EU countries The Vienna Convention is the international law that governs this issue. We cannot comment on the interpretation of this by other European countries and whether they permit or prohibit the use of A-frames in their national traffic. Anyone intending to travel through a European country and using an A-frame to tow a vehicle would be recommended to seek independent advice as to the laws within that country.” The argument that the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic allowed a UK motorcaravanner to legally A-frame-tow in an EU country whose national laws forbid that practice was tested in 2012 (ie. after the DforT missive was written) and rejected. In January 2012 the following question was put to the Commission of the European Parliament "I am writing to you on behalf of a constituent, who was recently issued with a fine for towing a car on an A-frame behind a motorhome while travelling on holiday in Germany. As I understand it, the UK’s Department for Transport finds that where an A-frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle, the A-frame and the car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. The UK Department for Transport concludes that the car and the A-frame satisfy the legal requirements for trailers both under UK law and EC law. However the German authorities refute that this is legal in Germany, arguing that it is not legal to tow a car behind a motorhome in Germany and that this is fully compatible with EC law. For the sake of clarity, could the Commission clarify whether or not it is legal for a UK citizen to tow a car on an A-frame in Germany, as well as in the rest of the EU?” The Commission’s February 2012 response was "The specific technical provisions for passenger cars that may freely circulate on public roads in the European Union are not defined by EU legislation but by an agreement under the auspices of the UN-ECE, the so-called ‘Vienna Convention on Road Traffic’(1) to which the individual Member States are contracting party. According to this Convention the vehicle combinations admitted to circulation in international traffic must be made up of a motor vehicle and a trailer designed to be coupled to a motor vehicle. As this is not the case in the situation described by the Honourable Member, a vehicle combination of two motor vehicles attached to each other by an A-frame may only circulate in those Member States where the relevant national legislation contains respective provisions.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Nice reading Derek. But the EU member states are free to put more STRINGENT rules. Belgium is a transit country.And they do Not like A framing in normal traffic. To putt some bolts on a fiat bumper. What are the a frame rules anyway about that in uk. Also your gas rules on motorhomes are questionable as compared to your house connections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Derek Uzzell - 2018-02-28 8:31 AM......................................According to this Convention the vehicle combinations admitted to circulation in international traffic must be made up of a motor vehicle and a trailer designed to be coupled to a motor vehicle. As this is not the case in the situation described by the Honourable Member, a vehicle combination of two motor vehicles attached to each other by an A-frame may only circulate in those Member States where the relevant national legislation contains respective provisions.” To which I would add that it is widely stated that the question of whether a car (or any other motor vehicle) attached to another motor vehicle via an A frame can, in law, be deemed to have become a trailer has never tried through the UK courts. That is why it falls into what has been called a "legal grey area". That is to say, it is not covered in legislation, either for or against, and as the courts have never ruled on its legality, it can be assumed to be legal until either legislated against or ruled illegal as a result of a court case. If the combination of one motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle (where the towed vehicle was not broken down but was fully normally functional) were legislated to be legal by the UK government, or if the UK courts ruled that it was legal (so that its legality in UK could be proved) then, as a combination of vehicles that was legal in the UK (a signatory of the Vienna Convention), the other signatories to the Convention would be obliged to accept it as legal (for UK registered vehicles) on their roads - even though it might remain illegal for vehicles registered in their own countries. As the combination falls into a grey area, where it is neither legal nor illegal but is merely accepted practice, no such proof can be provided and hence the Vienna Convention cannot be called in aid. This leaves the laws of the individual countries as the governing legislation. The UK interpretation is, in any case, a bit perverse. In UK, trailers do not require individual registration documents, whereas cars do, and these clearly state the vehicle to be a motor car, and not a trailer. If the towed car is to be regarded as a trailer while under tow, it must then comply with the trailer regulations to be legal. This brings into play the braking requirements for trailers, which state that if the trailer weighs over 750kg it must have brakes, of if under 750kg but fitted with brakes, its brakes must work in conjunction with the brakes of the towing vehicle, and that it must be capable of being reversed (including uphill) without intervention from the driver of the towing vehicle to release its brakes (which, basically, rules out overrun brakes). There are several devices that allow the towed car's brakes to function as above, but all involve modifying the service brakes to provide the linked functionality and, as all cars (except vintage etc. cars) are Type Approved, any such modification must also be Type Approved for use on that car. I don't think any of the devices currently available have been Type Approved. A further provision of the trailer regulations is that where the towing vehicle is equipped with ABS, the trailer must also be equipped so that ABS works on the trailer when it comes into action on the towing vehicle. I believe purpose built trailers and caravans are exempt from this requirement, but a car is neither. As above, I don't think any of the devices available for use with A frames can deliver this requirement. This is a very grey area that the UK government, for whatever reason, chooses to leave grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 It should also be noted that "trailer" weight needs to be considered for anyone who is restricted to 3500kg MAM ( who passed their test post 1979 ? or anyone over 70 who's licence has been downgraded) as there are very few cars below 750kg that meet this criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 Probably the most critical driving-licence-related date is 1 January 1997 but, more recently, another date (19 January 2013) was set that affects the Category BE entitlement. The following link explains the position fairly clearly https://www.gov.uk/driving-licence-categories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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