Gun Law in the US

[StuartO]

Just returned from a fortnight in Florida, during which I followed the US TV coverage of the shooting near Miami.  It was covered extensively on UK TV as well of course, so you will all know the outlines of the story: 17 teachers and children were shot with an assault rifle by an ex-pupil who was known to the authorities and had a long track record of dysfunctionality and gun obsession (and of saying he was going to be a school shooter) who became an orphan during the last year when his mother died.  The School had an attached armed law enforcement officer who was on site on the day but did not go into the School to tackle the Shooter - and nor apparently did other Deputies when they turned up after the alarm was raised.

The US media have covered it well and continue to do so; they seem to me to have provided balanced coverage of the different (conflicting) viewpoints about whether assault weapons should be banned nationally (some States already do ban them) and/or whether the minimum age for gun purchase should beraised from 18 to 21 (as with alcohol, even a can of beer) and/or better background checks to exclude those with mental health issues from gun ownership.

It is difficult from a UK perspective to see why the US doesn’t simply do all these things and more because as well as our ownexperience, Australia had a school shooting a few years ago but only one, and this is almost certainly (and pretty obviously) because they then introduced stricter gun laws.  You can have a gun to go hunting in Australia but you cannot have one simply for self defence.  In the USA the big thing about gun ownership is the right to have one for self defence - including in many people's minds the right to defend yourself against the Government if you feel it is abusing you.

 

As part of the US coverage I heard the NRA Media Spokesperson (a woman) and it’s President (a man) explaining their thinking for the first time.  They came across as completely blinkered bigots; they see the Second Amendment to the Constitution as an expression of their “God given” right to carry arms in an unrestricted way so that they will not accept any restrictive gun laws; they instinctively argue for other ways of tackling any problems with criminal shootings in terms of "if there is a bad guy with a gun. the solution is a good guy with a gun.  Hence they support arming teachers and/or providing armed guards at schools rather than in any way trying to put guns out of reach of potential shooters. Their answer to any problem with a bad guy and a gun is always based on a good guy having and using a gun.  They are utterly unshakable in these views and they come across very much like I remember the Rev Ian Paisley in his “No Surrender” days when he was completely uncompromising.  The NRA come across as completely unable to see anyone else’s viewpoint at all and willing to pursue any line and accuse anybody of evil rather than move an inch.

President Trump is clearly an NRA supporter and is unlikely to take resolute action against the NRA’s wishes.  He’s talking only about giving guns to teachers, having quietly dropped his earlier proposal to raise the age for buying guns because the NRA wouldn’t wear it.  (He called the Deputy who failed to go in and tackle the Shooter a coward and saying he would have gone into the School to tackle the Shooter if he’d been there, armed or not.  This conjured up for me an image of an ageing John Wayne substitute, complete with comb-over, boldly going to do what a man’s gotta do.

But there is hope.  A poll of public opinion since the Florida school shooting showed that 70% wanttougher gun laws compared with only 20% after the last school shooting.  And we’ve seen what public opinion can do when it get’s harnessed skilfully with the “Me Too” issue.  If the survivor children (some of whom are articulate young adults) mobilise and sustain their campaign for real change it could catch on.  They are doing well, for example one of them asked the President “Why would anyone need to own a weapon of war?”. 

 

For now the NRA seem to have enough influence (based on financial influence of course) on legislators to block anything they don’t like but mid-term elections are looming and that could change things. And various companies which had deals with the NRA (such as discounts ontheir services) have publicly abandoned the NRA, sensing a change in what the public will tolerate.  Momentum could well build.

Americans all feel strongly about liberty and most of them support the Second Amendment as a fundamental right to choose to own a gun.  Widespread gun ownership is never going to radically change but assault rifles could well be banned and background checks could also get better.  NRA membership is under 2% of the population so their political influence could weaken significantly as a result of changes in public opinion, even if the NRA's funding (largely from the gun industry) continues.

[Violet1956]

You have proved by your excellent post that there is much to be said for the better informed opinions gleaned from some direct experience Stuart. Pity you had to return to the Beast from the East.

[Bulletguy]

 

The part all Americans get confused with in the 2nd Amendment is this;

 

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

 

This was drafted out in days of the Wild West when Government feared attack by it's own people but times have moved on and the US has long had one of the largest military forces (regulated militia) in the world more than capable of protecting it's security.

 

Many still want to live in days of the wild west and because the country is literally creaking under the mass of serious weaponry owned by citizens which would take years to get rid of, the mindset is what needs radical change.

 

Outside US Serbia has the highest gun ratio per capita.....yet since the Kosovo war ended 19 years ago has seen just three spree killings accounting for 27 deaths. One man massacred 58 people at Las Vegas and seriously injured another 800. Americans like shooting at people they don't like or have a disagreement with......and there's lots of people!

[StuartO]

Violet1956 - 2018-03-03 7:43 AMYou have proved by your excellent post that there is much to be said for the better informed opinions gleaned from some direct experience Stuart. Pity you had to return to the Beast from the East.

Thank you kind lady.  The Beast from the East gave us a challenging drive from Gatwick to East Anglia yesterday but we made it, and got the dog from Kennels and did a basic shop, so we are OK.  Unfortunately the pipe filling the header tank in the loft had frozen ( a combination of low temperature and water not being drawn) but we even managed to get a plumber to turn out so that's now fixed.

 

[StuartO]

Bulletguy - 2018-03-03 7:44 AM....  Americans like shooting at people they don't like or have a disagreement with......and there's lots of people!

Whenever I drive in Florida I am conscious that statistically there's a 50% chance that a car has a gun in it - and road rage is one of the commoner precursors to a shooting incident.  For this reason I would never be tempted to have an argument with anyone (or even make a hand gesture).

 

Ironically America is also a place where people seem charming and polite to strangers in a way that seems to have been lost in UK.

 

[Bulletguy]

StuartO - 2018-03-02 5:08 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-03-03 7:44 AM....  Americans like shooting at people they don't like or have a disagreement with......and there's lots of people!

Whenever I drive in Florida I am conscious that statistically there's a 50% chance that a car has a gun in it - and road rage is one of the commoner precursors to a shooting incident. For this reason I would never be tempted to have an argument with anyone (or even make a hand gesture).

 

Ironically America is also a place where people seem charming and polite to strangers in a way that seems to have been lost in UK.

A relative of mine lived and worked in Texas for many years....possibly the most gun obsessed state due to their lax laws. You can buy an AR-15 in minutes and walk out the store with it slung over your shoulder. Open carry is commonplace in Texas.

 

Two of his direct neighbours, both Texans, were polar opposites. One was gun crazy with an arsenal of very serious weaponry, the other held very strong views on guns and never owned as much as an air pistol.

 

The charm/politeness is a bit strange.....being addressed as "sir" in almost every sentence is somewhat archaic, almost Victorian! Something else he found amusing at first but eventually got used to, if he was outside washing his car or sorting the lawn, a neighbour would walk by with "what are you doing", as some kind of opening line to conversation. Weird really as it's fairly obvious what a person is doing! Another point he mentioned, they don't take criticism too well particularly when it concerns anything about the US. Also he was staggered by the amount of Americans who had never set foot outside the US and had little concept or interest of other countries. His neighbours knew where the UK was.....but none had ever been.

[Violet1956]

StuartO - 2018-03-02 5:08 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-03-03 7:44 AM....  Americans like shooting at people they don't like or have a disagreement with......and there's lots of people!

Whenever I drive in Florida I am conscious that statistically there's a 50% chance that a car has a gun in it - and road rage is one of the commoner precursors to a shooting incident.  For this reason I would never be tempted to have an argument with anyone (or even make a hand gesture).

 

Ironically America is also a place where people seem charming and polite to strangers in a way that seems to have been lost in UK.

I was terrified in California one night when trying to find a convenient spot to park up in our hired RV the night before we were due to fly back to the UK from San Fransisco. Unarmed with two young children and the OH fast asleep I chose to drive around rather than remain in one spot. That fear gave me some idea about the desire of Americans to bear arms but I still believe that better gun controls would make more people safe from the 'bad guys '

[antony1969]

Violet1956 - 2018-03-02 5:48 PM

StuartO - 2018-03-02 5:08 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-03-03 7:44 AM....  Americans like shooting at people they don't like or have a disagreement with......and there's lots of people!

Whenever I drive in Florida I am conscious that statistically there's a 50% chance that a car has a gun in it - and road rage is one of the commoner precursors to a shooting incident.  For this reason I would never be tempted to have an argument with anyone (or even make a hand gesture).

 

Ironically America is also a place where people seem charming and polite to strangers in a way that seems to have been lost in UK.

I was terrified in California one night when trying to find a convenient spot to park up in our hired RV the night before we were due to fly back to the UK from San Fransisco. Unarmed with two young children and the OH fast asleep I chose to drive around rather than remain in one spot. That fear gave me some idea about the desire of Americans to bear arms but I still believe that better gun controls would make more people safe from the 'bad guys '

Try Manchester , Leeds , Liverpool , Bolton , London , Birmingham , Glasgow , Sheffield , Bradford ...........

[Bulletguy]

antony1969 - 2018-03-02 6:25 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-03-02 5:48 PM

StuartO - 2018-03-02 5:08 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-03-03 7:44 AM....  Americans like shooting at people they don't like or have a disagreement with......and there's lots of people!

Whenever I drive in Florida I am conscious that statistically there's a 50% chance that a car has a gun in it - and road rage is one of the commoner precursors to a shooting incident.  For this reason I would never be tempted to have an argument with anyone (or even make a hand gesture).

 

Ironically America is also a place where people seem charming and polite to strangers in a way that seems to have been lost in UK.

I was terrified in California one night when trying to find a convenient spot to park up in our hired RV the night before we were due to fly back to the UK from San Fransisco. Unarmed with two young children and the OH fast asleep I chose to drive around rather than remain in one spot. That fear gave me some idea about the desire of Americans to bear arms but I still believe that better gun controls would make more people safe from the 'bad guys '

Try Manchester , Leeds , Liverpool , Bolton , London , Birmingham , Glasgow , Sheffield , Bradford ...........

Hhmm.......and the last shooting in any of those places was when?? And how many shot dead?? :-S

[Brian Kirby]

StuartO - 2018-03-02 5:08 PM...................Ironically America is also a place where people seem charming and polite to strangers in a way that seems to have been lost in UK.

That's because they think the stranger may have a gun! :-D

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2018-03-02 6:41 PM

antony1969 - 2018-03-02 6:25 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-03-02 5:48 PM

StuartO - 2018-03-02 5:08 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-03-03 7:44 AM....  Americans like shooting at people they don't like or have a disagreement with......and there's lots of people!

Whenever I drive in Florida I am conscious that statistically there's a 50% chance that a car has a gun in it - and road rage is one of the commoner precursors to a shooting incident.  For this reason I would never be tempted to have an argument with anyone (or even make a hand gesture).

 

Ironically America is also a place where people seem charming and polite to strangers in a way that seems to have been lost in UK.

I was terrified in California one night when trying to find a convenient spot to park up in our hired RV the night before we were due to fly back to the UK from San Fransisco. Unarmed with two young children and the OH fast asleep I chose to drive around rather than remain in one spot. That fear gave me some idea about the desire of Americans to bear arms but I still believe that better gun controls would make more people safe from the 'bad guys '

Try Manchester , Leeds , Liverpool , Bolton , London , Birmingham , Glasgow , Sheffield , Bradford ...........

Hhmm.......and the last shooting in any of those places was when?? And how many shot dead?? :-S

Given Veronicas choice of words were "terrified , fear , bad guys" I presumed her post was about feeling safe in a certain place and all those places I quoted are areas here in Blighty you wouldn't feel safe parking your motorhome up on a night like she did with 2 young nippers .... As for the last shootings I don't know but knife , gun , hammer , baseball bat , lorry they're all tools of the trade ... If you wanna discuss knife deaths in London then maybe we could start a new thread ... Been a lot aint tha ???