India wants free movement of people as part of trade deal

[Barryd999]

antony1969 - 2018-04-08 8:04 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-08 5:28 PM

 

Show me where it says we cant trade with the rest of the world? Of course we can just not within a free trade deal. Another Brexit myth.

 

As members of the EU, we benefit from free trade agreements with over 50 countries around the world and we are also trading more and more with rising economies like China and India. We would have also benefited from new free trade agreements the EU is currently negotiating with other countries including the United States, Australia and Japan although I think you can forget the USA as its gone mental.

 

If we leave we will no longer trade for free with other EU countries unless we get a deal but we would also have to negotiate new trade deals with more than 50 other countries worldwide that we had a trade deal with via the EU.

 

To say however we cannot already trade outside of these countries is crap. If I want to sell computers to Timbuktu who says I cant?

 

Barry my line about trading with the rest of the world was in jest ! and I don't think anyone even the dimmest Brexit type believes we can't trade currently outside the EU ... We may well benefit from current EU trade deals with other countries Barry but we may well benefit further from eventually not having to pay billions into your beloved club to access those deals

 

That depends on whether you accept or not that for the tiny 1% of GDP that we pay in for membership we get back ten times that in terms of trade, jobs etc and other benefits. Your also assuming that all these wonderful trade deals we will get will be free and there wont be an even bigger economic loss when we leave. We are already losing about what we pay in as a result of just the vote.

 

Dave wont take kindly to being called the dimmest Brexit type either as he reckons we cant trade with the rest of the world. (lol)

 

 

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2018-04-08 11:04 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-04-08 8:04 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-08 5:28 PM

 

Show me where it says we cant trade with the rest of the world? Of course we can just not within a free trade deal. Another Brexit myth.

 

As members of the EU, we benefit from free trade agreements with over 50 countries around the world and we are also trading more and more with rising economies like China and India. We would have also benefited from new free trade agreements the EU is currently negotiating with other countries including the United States, Australia and Japan although I think you can forget the USA as its gone mental.

 

If we leave we will no longer trade for free with other EU countries unless we get a deal but we would also have to negotiate new trade deals with more than 50 other countries worldwide that we had a trade deal with via the EU.

 

To say however we cannot already trade outside of these countries is crap. If I want to sell computers to Timbuktu who says I cant?

 

Barry my line about trading with the rest of the world was in jest ! and I don't think anyone even the dimmest Brexit type believes we can't trade currently outside the EU ... We may well benefit from current EU trade deals with other countries Barry but we may well benefit further from eventually not having to pay billions into your beloved club to access those deals

 

That depends on whether you accept or not that for the tiny 1% of GDP that we pay in for membership we get back ten times that in terms of trade, jobs etc and other benefits. Your also assuming that all these wonderful trade deals we will get will be free and there wont be an even bigger economic loss when we leave. We are already losing about what we pay in as a result of just the vote.

 

Dave wont take kindly to being called the dimmest Brexit type either as he reckons we cant trade with the rest of the world. (lol)

 

 

That percentage could be disputed depending which team you voted for Barry and that contribution figure wont go up I presume even though UK world trade is growing much quicker than that with the EU ??? Unlike you Im not assuming anything with regards to trade deals as I have no idea what will happen but why wouldn't the world want to give good deals to one of the worlds leading economies ??? ... Anyway its all irrelevant remember because according to the world of Barry an asteroid is going to hit once we leave so trade deals wont matter will they ???

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-08 6:17 PM

 

UK trade with the EU is not dying, it is growing, and you are being misled by people presenting percentages rather than values. See below for trade values since 2009. (Source: HMRC)

 

..............2010......2011.....2012......2013......2014......2015......2016......2017

Exports 141,931 158,293 149,986 150,423 146,666 133,607 143,200 163,762

Imports 184,726 201,599 206,914 217,101 221,360 219,282 237,238 257,254

Balance -42,795 -43,306 -56,928 -66,678 -74,694 -85,675 -94,038 -93,492

 

Looks to me like the only thing we've got growing massively with the EU is a trade imbalance in their favour ;-) ..........

 

Kinda looks like they need us more than we need them dontcha think Brian? >:-) ...........

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Then look at the same figures for our trade with the rest of the world, Dave, they tell much the same story. So I guess the rest of the world also needs us more than we need them. On which basis I guess we can go around the whole world saying "send us your goods, we'll buy them".

 

The one teensy weensy little flaw in that pot of ointment is that we need to sell to them as well, so that we have the money to pay for the imports. I wonder when we'll begin to wake up and smell the coffee (imported, of course :-D)?

[Brian Kirby]

antony1969 - 2018-04-09 6:57 AM....................but why wouldn't the world want to give good deals to one of the worlds leading economies ??? ... .................

Oh, they will, Antony, but on terms that suit them. When they learn what terms might suit us, they may not want the deals quite so strongly. For most countries, trade agreements mean they can cell to others with lower, or no, tariffs. For the UK, for some reason, trade agreements mean that we can buy with lower, or no, tariffs. What no-one even seems to focus on, is where do we get the money to pay for the imports we so like. I think that has to come from exports, but on and on we go, importing more than we export.

 

Remember Mr Micawber? "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds, nineteen shillings and six pence, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery." There's a day of reckoning out there somewhere. Funny old world, isn't it?

[Barryd999]

Whats that phrase? The Grass is always greener.

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2018-04-09 1:57 PM

 

Whats that phrase? The Grass is always greener.

 

 

Mines always green where ever I go ;-) ...........

 

Coz I take it with me :D .........

 

[antony1969]

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-09 12:44 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-04-09 6:57 AM....................but why wouldn't the world want to give good deals to one of the worlds leading economies ??? ... .................

Oh, they will, Antony, but on terms that suit them. When they learn what terms might suit us, they may not want the deals quite so strongly. For most countries, trade agreements mean they can cell to others with lower, or no, tariffs. For the UK, for some reason, trade agreements mean that we can buy with lower, or no, tariffs. What no-one even seems to focus on, is where do we get the money to pay for the imports we so like. I think that has to come from exports, but on and on we go, importing more than we export.

 

Remember Mr Micawber? "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds, nineteen shillings and six pence, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery." There's a day of reckoning out there somewhere. Funny old world, isn't it?

 

May , might ??? ... Sounds like we better wait and see Brian ... If your correct then you can blame the likes of me for cocking it up ... If it goes the other way then you can thank me can't ya ... Lets just wait and see

[Bulletguy]

pelmetman - 2018-04-09 4:57 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-09 1:57 PM

 

Whats that phrase? The Grass is always greener.

 

 

Mines always green where ever I go ;-) ...........

 

Coz I take it with me :D .........

That doesn't look very "Spanish" to me.....more like a back yard in Blighty. Come to think of it, has that old tub ever made it as far as Spain because you've never posted any photographs of it in Spain? ;-)

 

The only ones i saw posted was when your roof fell apart to create a shower area. (lol)

[Brian Kirby]

antony1969 - 2018-04-08 7:56 PM.........................

1 The importance of the EU market to UK trade in comparison to world wide trade is becoming less and less Brian and who's suggesting reducing trade with the EU anyway ??? ...

2 Growth in other non EU countries far exceeds growth in the EU so why on earth would we not want to step out more into Barrys wider "global village" and take advantage of that ???

1 Yes, but only in comparative terms, not absolute terms. Both are, actually, growing. If we leave the EU, we shall become liable for tariffs, so the price of our exports on the EU market will rise. I would expect that to result in a fall in our exports, because that is the usual response to a rising price.

 

2 Again yes, but nothing presently prevents us trading with the world outside the EU. We are quite free to do so, just as do most of the other EU states. The EU has trade agreements with 63 non EU countries around the world, of which Britain, as a member state, can already take advantage. Others are being negotiated. We shall lose access to all those if we leave, albeit there are expressed hopes (but no more than hopes) that we may be able to "grandfather" those agreements. However, whether we shall get the same terms as we have at present, seems to me highly debatable.

 

So, what I see is a lose - lose situation, with only hopes of (unspecified) future trade agreements to compensate. It's like being invited to back a completely unknown horse in next year's Derby, as a way of increasing one's income. I should co-co! :-D

[antony1969]

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-09 5:32 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-04-08 7:56 PM.........................

1 The importance of the EU market to UK trade in comparison to world wide trade is becoming less and less Brian and who's suggesting reducing trade with the EU anyway ??? ...

2 Growth in other non EU countries far exceeds growth in the EU so why on earth would we not want to step out more into Barrys wider "global village" and take advantage of that ???

1 Yes, but only in comparative terms, not absolute terms. Both are, actually, growing. If we leave the EU, we shall become liable for tariffs, so the price of our exports on the EU market will rise. I would expect that to result in a fall in our exports, because that is the usual response to a rising price.

 

2 Again yes, but nothing presently prevents us trading with the world outside the EU. We are quite free to do so, just as do most of the other EU states. The EU has trade agreements with 63 non EU countries around the world, of which Britain, as a member state, can already take advantage. Others are being negotiated. We shall lose access to all those if we leave, albeit there are expressed hopes (but no more than hopes) that we may be able to "grandfather" those agreements. However, whether we shall get the same terms as we have at present, seems to me highly debatable.

 

So, what I see is a lose - lose situation, with only hopes of (unspecified) future trade agreements to compensate. It's like being invited to back a completely unknown horse in next year's Derby, as a way of increasing one's income. I should co-co! :-D

 

You mean we will lose access to trade agreements with 63 non EU countries we currently pay handsomely for ??? Are we so useless in this country we can't do what all those other non EU countries do and make trade agreements without paying into any club ??? ... You have little faith , I have much but like general elections when we choose only time will tell who's wiser you or me

[Brian Kirby]

antony1969 - 2018-04-09 5:51 PM.........................

 

1 You mean we will lose access to trade agreements with 63 non EU countries we currently pay handsomely for ???

 

2 Are we so useless in this country we can't do what all those other non EU countries do and make trade agreements without paying into any club ??? ... You have little faith , I have much but like general elections when we choose only time will tell who's wiser you or me

 

1 Yes of course we do. If the deals come with EU membership, and we leave the EU, we are no longer eligible to trade under those deals.

 

2 Of course not, but what have we to offer all those other countries, including the EU, that the EU itself doesn't offer more attractively? The EU, at present, is a market of just over half a billion people. The UK is a market of just over 66 million, as about 13% the size of the EU. Who is likely to get the best trade deal, 500 million, or 66 million? It's nothing to do with faith, people believe all kinds of unlikely things - I believe there is still a flat earth society! So, as those other countries will mostly be much more interested in what they can sell us, than in what they can buy from us, I think we'll struggle to get deals as good as we already have via the EU.

 

You won't get any trade agreement without paying in some way for the privilege. Look at the title of this string. Why would anyone do a trade agreement if there is no advantage to them? The only person I know of who could do one sited trade deals was Al Capone! But above all, what, apart from banking and insurance services, are we likely to sell? We have relatively little manufacturing capacity, and a very large proportion of what we have is foreign owned. Where's the incentive to export from the UK post Brexit if what you own is a plant you built in UK precisely to gain tariff-free access to the EU market?

 

I honestly can't see where the arithmetic adds up, unless there is a special Brexit factor being added in - say an extra 15% for faith? It's a bit like the reasoning applied by the accountants who ran Carillion (only they called it goodwill! :-)). Then, of course, they discovered that they'd imagined the goodwill, and the firm promptly went bust!

[antony1969]

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-09 6:22 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-04-09 5:51 PM.........................

 

1 You mean we will lose access to trade agreements with 63 non EU countries we currently pay handsomely for ???

 

2 Are we so useless in this country we can't do what all those other non EU countries do and make trade agreements without paying into any club ??? ... You have little faith , I have much but like general elections when we choose only time will tell who's wiser you or me

 

1 Yes of course we do. If the deals come with EU membership, and we leave the EU, we are no longer eligible to trade under those deals.

 

2 Of course not, but what have we to offer all those other countries, including the EU, that the EU itself doesn't offer more attractively? The EU, at present, is a market of just over half a billion people. The UK is a market of just over 66 million, as about 13% the size of the EU. Who is likely to get the best trade deal, 500 million, or 66 million? It's nothing to do with faith, people believe all kinds of unlikely things - I believe there is still a flat earth society! So, as those other countries will mostly be much more interested in what they can sell us, than in what they can buy from us, I think we'll struggle to get deals as good as we already have via the EU.

 

You won't get any trade agreement without paying in some way for the privilege. Look at the title of this string. Why would anyone do a trade agreement if there is no advantage to them? The only person I know of who could do one sited trade deals was Al Capone! But above all, what, apart from banking and insurance services, are we likely to sell? We have relatively little manufacturing capacity, and a very large proportion of what we have is foreign owned. Where's the incentive to export from the UK post Brexit if what you own is a plant you built in UK precisely to gain tariff-free access to the EU market?

 

I honestly can't see where the arithmetic adds up, unless there is a special Brexit factor being added in - say an extra 15% for faith? It's a bit like the reasoning applied by the accountants who ran Carillion (only they called it goodwill! :-)). Then, of course, they discovered that they'd imagined the goodwill, and the firm promptly went bust!

 

1 ... It was of course tongue in cheek with that Brian with much more attention on the money we currently pay the EU to access those markets , a cost which of course will only go one way ... Up

2 ... I have no idea Brian who will get the better deal as I don't have access to the magical crystal balls some on here own ... I can say though that when other non EU countries are negotiating deals with the EU they aren't really negotiating with the unimportant countries in mind they are negotiating with countries with strong economies like us , France , Germany , Italy and out of those us and quite possibly Italy are departing your much loved club for starters so where will negotiating better deals leave your club when maybe others like Poland , Austria and so on decide enough is enough and they'd prefer life outside the EU which is a real possibility ???

[Bulletguy]

antony1969 - 2018-04-09 6:37 PM

 

I don't have access to the magical crystal balls some on here own ...

But.......

 

I can say though that when other non EU countries are negotiating deals with the EU they aren't really negotiating with the unimportant countries in mind they are negotiating with countries with strong economies like us , France , Germany , Italy and out of those us and quite possibly Italy are departing your much loved club for starters so where will negotiating better deals leave your club when maybe others like Poland , Austria and so on decide enough is enough and they'd prefer life outside the EU which is a real possibility ???

So was this that Brexit "magic crystal ball" were you rubbing? (lol)

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2018-04-09 8:38 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-04-09 6:37 PM

 

I don't have access to the magical crystal balls some on here own ...

But.......

 

I can say though that when other non EU countries are negotiating deals with the EU they aren't really negotiating with the unimportant countries in mind they are negotiating with countries with strong economies like us , France , Germany , Italy and out of those us and quite possibly Italy are departing your much loved club for starters so where will negotiating better deals leave your club when maybe others like Poland , Austria and so on decide enough is enough and they'd prefer life outside the EU which is a real possibility ???

So was this that Brexit "magic crystal ball" were you rubbing? (lol)

 

None "quite possibly" and "maybe" ... Words I used ... Look em up ... Keep on rubbing your ball

[Brian Kirby]

antony1969 - 2018-04-09 6:37 PM.................................

1 I can say though that when other non EU countries are negotiating deals with the EU they aren't really negotiating with the unimportant countries in mind they are negotiating with countries with strong economies like us , France , Germany , Italy and

2 out of those us and quite possibly Italy are departing your much loved club for starters so where will negotiating better deals leave your club when maybe others like Poland , Austria and so on decide enough is enough and they'd prefer life outside the EU which is a real possibility ???

1 Whereas that may be true in economic terms, from the point of view of any country negotiating a trade agreement with the EU, it will surely be that vision of selling into a market of 500 million that excites them. Obviously some of the 27 member states have greater purchasing power than others, but economic growth within the EU does not conform to the EU average. Some countries are growing faster than others, and the growth areas are as accessible as the others once the agreement is in place.

 

2 So, if the EU has depleted membership where will be its appeal as a market for other countries? We then regress to a Europe of individual states all trying to outdo each other to benefit from trade with the same group of non-European states, and cutting their own, and each other's, throats in the process. Protectionist tariffs would be erected, but so would non-tariff barriers, leading to a reduction in trade. That, I think, is well established and widely accepted. Borders would become increasingly difficult, and time consuming, to cross, with enhanced controls on goods, money, and people. This is not crystal ball stuff, it is just what travel in Europe was like before the EU/EEC came into being.

 

So, inter European trade would also likely reduce, further impacting the economies of the individual states. There would inevitably be friction between countries, with allegations of unfair practise and dumping. At some point someone would start to say "didn't we once have an organisation within which we co-operated together to deal with all this crap", and invent anew the EU, or something similar.

 

The UK was once a group of quarrelling kingdoms, that gradually coalesced around a single monarch. Ditto Germany, France, Spain, Italy, and others. Whole states have disappeared in Europe, some to reappear later, while others have appeared where previously there was no independent state. It is the direction of history that individual countries cooperate in order to trade and, when they do, they begin to make rules to govern that trade and prevent opportunists from exploiting the system to unfair advantage.

 

We joined the EEC, which many saw as no more than a "common market". It was always more than that, and it had been in a continual state of change since its inception. Those who saw, or see, any such institution as forever fixed in the state it was when we joined were doomed to disappointment. The mere fact of our membership, along with Ireland and Denmark, in 1973 changed the six into nine and, by so doing, also changed the nature of the EEC. Ditto Greece in '81, ditto Spain and Portugal in '86.

 

The break-up of the EU would be good for no one, and no country, IMO, and with Russia increasingly intervening in other states' affairs, would additionally, IMO, be detrimental to the security of the whole of Europe.

 

Is Britain now perfect? Has Britain remained unchanged over the 40 years since we joined the EEC, or at any time in our history? Then, why expect perfection from the EU, and why expected the EEC to have remained as it was before we joined in 1973?

[malc d]

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-10 10:05 AM

 

 

Has Britain remained unchanged over the 40 years since we joined the EEC, or at any time in our history?

 

Then, why expect perfection from the EU, and why expected the EEC to have remained as it was before we joined in 1973?

 

 

As you say Brian - change has happened for hundreds of years- but in the main it has been gradual.

 

Politicians have now pushed too much change too fast - without considering the concerns of the electorate - with results they didn't see coming.

 

Brexit is the result of political failure.

 

:-|

[Brian Kirby]

malc d - 2018-04-10 10:25 AM...............Brexit is the result of political failure. :-|

Damn right it is!

[Barryd999]

I cannot believe that people are still swallowing Brexit lie number 2 (number one being immigration) that somehow we will forge better trade deals outside of the EU. Brian has summed it all up perfectly. The whole purpose of the real Brexit which was steered by the super Elite using rousing emotional vote winners such as super duper trade deals with the rest of the world, controlling immigration and other such rubbish like "Taking back control" was to deregulate the UK and turn it into a tax haven.

 

Why cant people see that and stop peddling the same rubbish that got us into this mess. All you have succeeded in doing is the dirty work for the likes of Banks, Hargreaves, Hosking, Reek Smug etc.

 

On the plus side for you Brexiteers there is to be a Brexit Museum in Brexit central Lincoln. I suspect it will be too painful to visit a few years down the line as it will be stuffed full of false promises that were never delivered.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/10/brexit-museum-of-sovereignty-leave-campaign-memorabilia

[Bulletguy]

Barryd999 - 2018-04-10 12:02 PM

 

I cannot believe that people are still swallowing Brexit lie number 2 (number one being immigration) that somehow we will forge better trade deals outside of the EU.

Why? They swallowed everything else hook, line and sinker! They were duped, some now know it, but trying to save face.

 

On the plus side for you Brexiteers there is to be a Brexit Museum in Brexit central Lincoln. I suspect it will be too painful to visit a few years down the line as it will be stuffed full of false promises that were never delivered.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/10/brexit-museum-of-sovereignty-leave-campaign-memorabilia

Absolutely staggering......i'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at such farcical insanity. *-)

 

Stand by for the queue of Brexiters frothing at the mouth screeching "fake news"!! ;-)

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-10 10:28 AM

 

malc d - 2018-04-10 10:25 AM...............Brexit is the result of political failure. :-|

Damn right it is!

 

So what's new? :-S .........

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Bulletguy - 2018-04-09 5:28 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-04-09 4:57 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-04-09 1:57 PM

 

Whats that phrase? The Grass is always greener.

 

 

Mines always green where ever I go ;-) ...........

 

Coz I take it with me :D .........

That doesn't look very "Spanish" to me.....more like a back yard in Blighty. Come to think of it, has that old tub ever made it as far as Spain because you've never posted any photographs of it in Spain? ;-)

 

The only ones i saw posted was when your roof fell apart to create a shower area. (lol)

 

Given the world you live in Bullet 8-) ........

 

If it makes you feel better that you think I never left the UK then I'm happy to agree with you :-S .......

 

 

 

 

[malc d]

pelmetman - 2018-04-11 4:15 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-10 10:28 AM

 

malc d - 2018-04-10 10:25 AM...............Brexit is the result of political failure. :-|

Damn right it is!

 

So what's new? :-S .........

 

 

 

Brexit is.

 

It's not happened before to my knowledge.

 

;-)

[Guest pelmetman]

malc d - 2018-04-11 4:24 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-04-11 4:15 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-04-10 10:28 AM

 

malc d - 2018-04-10 10:25 AM...............Brexit is the result of political failure. :-|

Damn right it is!

 

So what's new? :-S .........

 

 

 

Brexit is.

 

It's not happened before to my knowledge.

 

;-)

 

Well it did kind of ;-) .......but back then we thought we were signing up again for a Common Market :-| ......

 

"Referendums in the United Kingdom are very occasionally held at a national, regional or local level. National referendums can be permitted by an Act of Parliament and regulated though the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, but they are by tradition extremely rare due to the principle of parliamentary sovereignty meaning that they cannot be constitutionally binding on either the Government or Parliament, although they usually have a persuasive political effect.

 

Until the latter half of the twentieth century the concept of a referendum was widely seen in British politics as "unconstitutional" and an "alien device". As of 2017, only three national referendums have ever been held across the whole of the United Kingdom: in 1975, 2011 and most recently in 2016."

 

Dont those politicians/lawyers just hate doing the will of the people? >:-) .........

 

Progress eh? B-) .......

 

 

[W3526602]

Hi,

 

At least India and the Indians like us. The EU and their residents do not like us (the British, although they may like each of us individually)

 

<<< If we leave we will no longer trade for free with other EU countries >>>

 

Agreed, we will have tp pay a tariff. But they will have to pay a tariff to trade with us. As they sell more to us than we sell to them, we will win. So they will decide that it is no longer worthwhile selling to us, so drop out of the market, leaving a void that can be filled by our producers.

 

I suspect that as we are still in the EU, we are not allowed to produce our own passports for patriotic reasons ,,, we have to go with the lowest tender.

 

Can everybody stop telling me why I voted to leave. Yes, immigration was a factor, but that was due to the rest of the EU not following the rules. I voted to leave because I wanted OUT, and I'm prepared to accept some hardship to get out. I'm guessing that many here voted to remain, so they could go motorhoming in Europe. We each did what we thought best.

 

For the third time, my wife has to pay £25 before the post Office will deliver a birthday present from he cousin in USA. £8 of that is for the PO to collect the VAT. The EU demands that VAT is charged of all goods from outside the EU, valued at £18 or over. If £17 is the VAT @ 20%, then the presents must be worth £85. From past experience, the same VAT was charged on goods worth about £20. Is that what they calkl a FREE market?

 

602