Guest pelmetman Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 I'll accept another referendum so long as the vote was worded........ Do you want to leave the EU with the deal offered by them?....... Do you want to leave the EU without a deal? >:-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Barryd999 - 2018-04-13 11:06 PM malc d - 2018-04-13 8:22 PM Barryd999 - 2018-04-13 5:53 PM malc d - 2018-04-13 5:03 PM ... but I still haven't heard anyone explain what happens if we get a vote and the public vote against the deal . :-| Barryd999 1. Walk away, no deal and leave the EU completely. 2. Accept the deal (Whatever it is) 3. neither of the above, stay in. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- malc d 2) So you think we should accept the deal even if the public vote AGAINST it ? :-| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Barryd999 Will address the points above. 2. You misunderstand. If the public decide the deal is a good one and a majority vote for it then that is what we will do. . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- malc d It seems that you misunderstood my question. It seems that you are assuming the public will vote FOR the deal. My question is what happens if they don't ? :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 malc d - 2018-04-14 9:37 AM Barryd999 - 2018-04-13 11:06 PM malc d - 2018-04-13 8:22 PM Barryd999 - 2018-04-13 5:53 PM malc d - 2018-04-13 5:03 PM ... but I still haven't heard anyone explain what happens if we get a vote and the public vote against the deal . :-| Barryd999 1. Walk away, no deal and leave the EU completely. 2. Accept the deal (Whatever it is) 3. neither of the above, stay in. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- malc d 2) So you think we should accept the deal even if the public vote AGAINST it ? :-| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Barryd999 Will address the points above. 2. You misunderstand. If the public decide the deal is a good one and a majority vote for it then that is what we will do. . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- malc d It seems that you misunderstood my question. It seems that you are assuming the public will vote FOR the deal. My question is what happens if they don't ? :-| But Barrie will be correct ... He has after all "studied and watched Brexit for what seems like a lifetime" ... He tells us in one breath the only folk to benefit from Brexit will be rich Tory MPs and the likes who will change the rules and laws to suit them , this of course would rely to a certain extent on the Tories being in government yet on the other hand he tells us the Tories are finished , a Labour Party with a monkey in charge will soon be in power and in power possibly before Brexit happens ??? ... Go figure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted April 14, 2018 Author Share Posted April 14, 2018 malc d - 2018-04-14 9:37 AM Barryd999 - 2018-04-13 11:06 PM malc d - 2018-04-13 8:22 PM Barryd999 - 2018-04-13 5:53 PM malc d - 2018-04-13 5:03 PM ... but I still haven't heard anyone explain what happens if we get a vote and the public vote against the deal . :-| Barryd999 1. Walk away, no deal and leave the EU completely. 2. Accept the deal (Whatever it is) 3. neither of the above, stay in. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- malc d 2) So you think we should accept the deal even if the public vote AGAINST it ? :-| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Barryd999 Will address the points above. 2. You misunderstand. If the public decide the deal is a good one and a majority vote for it then that is what we will do. . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- malc d It seems that you misunderstood my question. It seems that you are assuming the public will vote FOR the deal. My question is what happens if they don't ? :-| As I said earlier. IF they dont like the deal they can vote to still leave but reject the deal or vote to remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted April 14, 2018 Author Share Posted April 14, 2018 W3526602 - 2018-04-14 5:13 AM Hi Barry, There wasn't a right way or a wrong way to vote. Stay or leave ... we don't know what the future holds, we don't know, today , whether the EU will boom or bust in the next 12 months. All we could do is cast our vote, and make the result work. So we cast our votes ... nearly 10% more voted to leave than stay. From then on we should have worked as a united nation to get the best deal. But no ... not only did the Government have to negotiate with the bullies in the EU, they had to contend with the Fifth Columnists trying to obstruct their efforts. If everybody had worked together, we would have got the best deal possible. After getting that deal, THEN is the time to tidy up the details, probably at the next election. 602 10%? Where on earth did you get that from? 51.89% Leave 48.11% Remain Bullies and fifth columnists? Wow. Can you give any examples of bullying from the EU? Seems to me they just stuck to their word. The Brexiteers seemed to think the EU would roll over because "They need us more than we need them" was what they told us. Doesnt seem so though does it? Do you think we remainers should have jolly well got behind the Leave campaign then when it didnt go our way? If you vote labour in the election and lose do you then go and back Tory for four years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted April 14, 2018 Author Share Posted April 14, 2018 antony1969 - 2018-04-14 10:11 AM malc d - 2018-04-14 9:37 AM Barryd999 - 2018-04-13 11:06 PM malc d - 2018-04-13 8:22 PM Barryd999 - 2018-04-13 5:53 PM malc d - 2018-04-13 5:03 PM ... but I still haven't heard anyone explain what happens if we get a vote and the public vote against the deal . :-| Barryd999 1. Walk away, no deal and leave the EU completely. 2. Accept the deal (Whatever it is) 3. neither of the above, stay in. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- malc d 2) So you think we should accept the deal even if the public vote AGAINST it ? :-| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Barryd999 Will address the points above. 2. You misunderstand. If the public decide the deal is a good one and a majority vote for it then that is what we will do. . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- malc d It seems that you misunderstood my question. It seems that you are assuming the public will vote FOR the deal. My question is what happens if they don't ? :-| But Barrie will be correct ... He has after all "studied and watched Brexit for what seems like a lifetime" ... He tells us in one breath the only folk to benefit from Brexit will be rich Tory MPs and the likes who will change the rules and laws to suit them , this of course would rely to a certain extent on the Tories being in government yet on the other hand he tells us the Tories are finished , a Labour Party with a monkey in charge will soon be in power and in power possibly before Brexit happens ??? ... Go figure I dont think the rich masters of Brexit considered how badly it would all go for them Antony and their Tory puppets would still be in power. It could still work out for them though as there is still a danger of a hard brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Barryd999 - 2018-04-14 10:23 AM As I said earlier. IF they dont like the deal they can vote to still leave but reject the deal or vote to remain. You and I are clearly on a different wavelength. I give up. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Barryd999 - 2018-04-14 10:34 AM antony1969 - 2018-04-14 10:11 AM malc d - 2018-04-14 9:37 AM Barryd999 - 2018-04-13 11:06 PM malc d - 2018-04-13 8:22 PM Barryd999 - 2018-04-13 5:53 PM malc d - 2018-04-13 5:03 PM ... but I still haven't heard anyone explain what happens if we get a vote and the public vote against the deal . :-| Barryd999 1. Walk away, no deal and leave the EU completely. 2. Accept the deal (Whatever it is) 3. neither of the above, stay in. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- malc d 2) So you think we should accept the deal even if the public vote AGAINST it ? :-| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Barryd999 Will address the points above. 2. You misunderstand. If the public decide the deal is a good one and a majority vote for it then that is what we will do. . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- malc d It seems that you misunderstood my question. It seems that you are assuming the public will vote FOR the deal. My question is what happens if they don't ? :-| But Barrie will be correct ... He has after all "studied and watched Brexit for what seems like a lifetime" ... He tells us in one breath the only folk to benefit from Brexit will be rich Tory MPs and the likes who will change the rules and laws to suit them , this of course would rely to a certain extent on the Tories being in government yet on the other hand he tells us the Tories are finished , a Labour Party with a monkey in charge will soon be in power and in power possibly before Brexit happens ??? ... Go figure I dont think the rich masters of Brexit considered how badly it would all go for them Antony and their Tory puppets would still be in power. It could still work out for them though as there is still a danger of a hard brexit. So with a hard Brexit who'll be in power in Barrie world ... A "monkey" led Labour government with the Tories "finished" according to you or a Tory government with a "Dickensian twerp Rees Smug" in charge ??? ... Mrs May I presume will be long gone if your Labour government before Brexit comes true ??? ... Its becoming difficult to keep up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Barryd999 - 2018-04-13 11:06 PM...................Your right about that last comment, Democracy does not always give everyone the result they would like but Democracy also gives us the right to campaign for change and change our minds after all it was David Davis who said “If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy”. Agreed. This idea that having had a vote on an issue, it would be undemocratic to hold a further vote two years later on the same issue, is a monstrous canard. Look at our election record. We have had elections in close proximity without destroying democracy. We had elections in 1922, 1923, and 1924, in 1929 and 1931, in 1950 and 1951, in 1964 and 1966, in February 1974 and October 1974, and in 2015 and 2017. No one seems to have complained that democracy died as a consequence, even in 2017 when the PM called a snap election, in contravention of the spirit of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011. Democracy is a process, not an event, and Brexit is a far more onerous issue than a mere election. It is a matter of national importance that will come to affect every resident of the UK, for better or worse. Look also at what happens with court cases where, if new evidence relevant to a tried case is adduced, the original verdict can be set aside and a re-trial ordered, or a judgement overturned and a person's name formally cleared. In the case of Brexit we have seen substantial new evidence produced since the referendum, that was not mentioned before the vote, and which may well have influenced people's votes had it been. On grounds of democracy, historic precedent, and natural justice, the case for a second referendum is unassailable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-14 12:41 PM On grounds of democracy, historic precedent, and natural justice, the case for a second referendum is unassailable. Really?........When was the last time the "Majority" voted for a political party? *-) ........ Just askin? >:-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-14 12:41 PM In the case of Brexit we have seen substantial new evidence produced since the referendum, that was not mentioned before the vote, and which may well have influenced people's votes had it been. Really? We have seen lots of wrangling over the same old evidence but not really any new evidence other than speculation and heresay as the existing evidence is pulled apart and I suspect there will be no new evidence as such just an ongoing re-hash of the same old issues. If so many people voted without thinking it through that is no different to a parliamentary election where what someone says on the day before can influence a vote. What nobody is asking now is where would we be in 5 or 10 years time if we had stayed and what kind of EU will it be and would we really want to be part of it given how it is and how it seems to be heading? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-14 12:41 PM In the case of Brexit we have seen substantial new evidence produced since the referendum, that was not mentioned before the vote, and which may well have influenced people's votes had it been. You mean the sky didn't fall in? (lol) ....... As for financial "Evidence" despite you Remoaner's Doom & Gloom merchants best efforts >:-) ......... I had a letter last month to say my private pension would be increased this year B-)....... Despite numerous warnings to the contrary (lol) ........ Looks to me like Brexit is the best thing since sliced bread :-D ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-04-14 3:39 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-04-14 12:41 PM On grounds of democracy, historic precedent, and natural justice, the case for a second referendum is unassailable. Really?........When was the last time the "Majority" voted for a political party? *-) ........ Just askin? >:-) ......... 2015. The size of majority is irrelevant. The argument is based on the functioning of democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Tracker - 2018-04-14 4:56 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-04-14 12:41 PM In the case of Brexit we have seen substantial new evidence produced since the referendum, that was not mentioned before the vote, and which may well have influenced people's votes had it been. Really? We have seen lots of wrangling over the same old evidence but not really any new evidence other than speculation and heresay as the existing evidence is pulled apart and I suspect there will be no new evidence as such just an ongoing re-hash of the same old issues..................... Yep, really. :-) Just a simple example. Where was the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, and its potential impact on the Peace Process, discussed in the run-up to the referendum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-04-14 5:39 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-04-14 12:41 PM In the case of Brexit we have seen substantial new evidence produced since the referendum, that was not mentioned before the vote, and which may well have influenced people's votes had it been. You mean the sky didn't fall in? (lol) ..................... No Dave, that isn't what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-14 6:42 PM Tracker - 2018-04-14 4:56 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-04-14 12:41 PM In the case of Brexit we have seen substantial new evidence produced since the referendum, that was not mentioned before the vote, and which may well have influenced people's votes had it been. Really? We have seen lots of wrangling over the same old evidence but not really any new evidence other than speculation and heresay as the existing evidence is pulled apart and I suspect there will be no new evidence as such just an ongoing re-hash of the same old issues..................... Yep, really. :-) Just a simple example. Where was the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, and its potential impact on the Peace Process, discussed in the run-up to the referendum? Dontcha mean the despicable way you Remoaners are trying to open old wounds to achieve their aims? *-) ......... No shame no gain huh? >:-( ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-14 6:42 PM Just a simple example. Where was the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, and its potential impact on the Peace Process, discussed in the run-up to the referendum? It did not come to my attention Brian, but then I don't live in Ireland, but it may well have come to the attention of those who do? It does not take much of a genius to work out that there probably needs to be a border somewhere, even if it is in the Irish Sea, although working out quite how that would work is gonna give someone a headache and no doubt it was thought about prior to the referendum - just not by us? The logical place is the old border but as the Irish and the EU don't want that the onus should be on them to come up with a workable alternative acceptable to the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-14 6:37 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-14 3:39 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-04-14 12:41 PM On grounds of democracy, historic precedent, and natural justice, the case for a second referendum is unassailable. Really?........When was the last time the "Majority" voted for a political party? *-) ........ Just askin? >:-) ......... 2015. The size of majority is irrelevant. The argument is based on the functioning of democracy. Dontcha mean undermining it because you lost? *-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-04-14 7:06 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-04-14 6:37 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-14 3:39 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-04-14 12:41 PM On grounds of democracy, historic precedent, and natural justice, the case for a second referendum is unassailable. Really?........When was the last time the "Majority" voted for a political party? *-) ........ Just askin? >:-) ......... 2015. The size of majority is irrelevant. The argument is based on the functioning of democracy. Dontcha mean undermining it because you lost? *-) ....... No Dave, I mean using it to try to prevent a mistake being made. Democracy, as I've already said, is a process, not an event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Tracker - 2018-04-14 7:05 PM....................The logical place is the old border but as the Irish and the EU don't want that the onus should be on them to come up with a workable alternative acceptable to the UK. I disagree. It is us, the UK, who are proposing to change the status quo. It is incumbent on us to resolve the problems we are creating. Just as were it the EU, or the Irish Republic, who were initiating the change, it would be incumbent on them to resolve with the problems they might create. I think it profoundly unrealistic for us to say "Hey chaps, we've just decided to render your border unworkable, hop off and fix it for us, to our satisfaction, will you?" Who is the injured party, and who is inflicting the injury? So, who has the obligation to make good the mess they create? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-04-14 7:03 PM.................Dontcha mean the despicable way you Remoaners are trying to open old wounds to achieve their aims? *-) ......... No shame no gain huh? >:-( ....... So, what is your proposal to solve the obvious problems you are creating? Another 24 years of IRA bombing? Good call! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-14 7:22 PM Tracker - 2018-04-14 7:05 PM....................The logical place is the old border but as the Irish and the EU don't want that the onus should be on them to come up with a workable alternative acceptable to the UK. I disagree. It is us, the UK, who are proposing to change the status quo. It is incumbent on us to resolve the problems we are creating. Just as were it the EU, or the Irish Republic, who were initiating the change, it would be incumbent on them to resolve with the problems they might create. I think it profoundly unrealistic for us to say "Hey chaps, we've just decided to render your border unworkable, hop off and fix it for us, to our satisfaction, will you?" Who is the injured party, and who is inflicting the injury? So, who has the obligation to make good the mess they create? It may have escaped your notice, but so far we have had Barnier constantly saying "we can't reach agreement" and then at the deadlines miraculously we reach agreements, i'm not at all sure how it can be made to work, but one thing you can be assured of, both parties know it has to work and therefore it will. I spent around 10 years of my working life negotiating between management and unions, despite plenty of histrionics never once had a strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-14 7:22 PM I disagree. It is us, the UK, who are proposing to change the status quo. It is incumbent on us to resolve the problems we are creating. Just as were it the EU, or the Irish Republic, who were initiating the change, it would be incumbent on them to resolve with the problems they might create. I think it profoundly unrealistic for us to say "Hey chaps, we've just decided to render your border unworkable, hop off and fix it for us, to our satisfaction, will you?" I disagree. For years the Irish were not in the EU and the land border with NI applied just as it does on mainland Europe between EU and non EU countries. Leaving aside the violence that enabled villains from both sides to cross beteen jurisdictions that border worked as well as any other in Europe and having no physical border will allow all manner of wrong doings that involve differeant values to be easily re-established. As a sovereign nation the UK has the right to self determination and self rule and that includes maintaining our own borders which includes Ireland just as much as it does France and if the Irish do not like it then it is up to them to find a solution that works for them and if the EU can do that for Switzerland they can do it for Ireland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-14 7:25 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-14 7:03 PM.................Dontcha mean the despicable way you Remoaners are trying to open old wounds to achieve their aims? *-) ......... No shame no gain huh? >:-( ....... So, what is your proposal to solve the obvious problems you are creating? Another 24 years of IRA bombing? Good call! I ain't creating a problem ;-) ........ The EU & You Remoaners are creating the problem *-) ........ Besides what's a few IRA nut jobs gonna do that our resident Islamist nut jobs aren't? :-| ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Tracker - 2018-04-14 8:08 PM As a sovereign nation the UK has the right to self determination and self rule and that includes maintaining our own borders which includes Ireland just as much as it does France and if the Irish do not like it then it is up to them to find a solution that works for them and if the EU can do that for Switzerland they can do it for Ireland. Ireland has a direct ferry to France so what's the problem? :-S .......... Oh I forgot it's another molehill whinging Remoaners want to turn into a mountain *-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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