aandncaravan Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 Been talking to lots of people today, talking to Banner next week. Today was the deadline to send all our docs and data to Jaye Lebecio, but one of the people I spoke to this morning was Daniel, the MMM editor. He is going to talk to the NCC, so we have only released one document in the hope it will wake them up enough to give Daniel something to pass on to them to consider. So this new page : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/campaign-for-battery-change.php now contains one document that shows how the NCC used the graph from a Sales Brochure to incorrectly 'verify' two batteries that were put onto the scheme pages. The batteries in question, good quality wet batteries but nothing special, were mistakenly given a 2,000 cycle durability rating, when a few hundred might be more than they deserve. When Yuasa, Exide, Varta, Banner, etc. struggle to develop wet acid batteries with 300 cycles, you can see how they might be miffed at the unfairness of Bison (who?) being given a fairy tale 2,000 cycle rating, which as far as I am aware is actually impossible to achieve with todays technology, so someone should have asked questions. How many people have bought those 2,000 cycle batteries thinking it was too good to be true? To find I had paid £250 for a Varta LFD90 wannabe, I would cry and truly think the scheme was criminal. Lets see what comes out in the next few days, the best is yet to come. Natalie has promised to continue posting on here if I get arrested, so the updates will keep coming. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 JCI (Varta), Hankook, Yuasa, Exide, Bosch you can trust the lable as you can see the manufactures websites and the spec all match and they are the OEM specs These companies also sell unbranded batteries unlabelled to distributors who use their own labels and some (to many) increase the spec from reality. Yes you can see these relabled products have been NCC approved, NCC have no accreditation test results results, and have no more right to approve batteries than anyone else including my dog, they don’t publish the test results for the claims the are approving (maybe because they have never seen any). If you have an NCC approved battery why not ask the NCC for a copy of the test results and see what you get!!! The NCC charge the battery distributor to join the scheme they are a business, it is in their interest to approve as many brands as possible. The authorities are well aware of what they are doing and I guess they will have questions to answer. I believe there is a two year investigation into this and another round of government testing is under way to try and stop it. So yes you can trust most decent manufactures labels, distributors own brand labels you can trust only if they match the manufactures website specifications. If you can’t check against the manufactures website spec I would stay away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plwsm2000 Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Not sure if it is happening yet but it will only be a matter of time before fake Bosch, Yuasa etc. batteries appear on ebay once approved batteries are the norm. I would only buy a battery from a reputable source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Even big reputable companies have been doing this, some of the names would shock you. If you can’t get on the manufactures website (not the distributor) and see the real spec think twice. For example Hankook are pretty much regarded as the best main stream leisure product within the industry, they have a very distinctive case, you will see their product with distributors own labels on everywhere all with higher spec than Hankook even though its the same battery. Would you buy a Mercedes 300sl that had the badge taken off and some made up name saying 500sl??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 4, 2018 Author Share Posted July 4, 2018 Baron - 2018-07-03 1:55 PM For example Hankook are pretty much regarded as the best main stream leisure product within the industry If that is true then it is a shame as Hankook don't make their own batteries. Hankook batteries are mostly made by Atlasbx (used to be known as the Korean Battery company) who also make Numax, Lucas, etc batteries. While some of the top spec versions are not bad the bottom range XV are based on Starter Battery designs and are poor, delivering just a handful of cycles. Atlasbx will make any technology battery in any style case a wholesaler is willing to fund, but the budget ranges are usually based on the case style familiar to everyone as that used by Numax. We know of one Atlasbx XVxx that didn't reach 10 cycles before it failed. Not sure where the Hankook reputation you speak of came from, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't from BS EN 50342 test results. While some of the big manufacturers have bought up smaller companies to manufacturer their budget ranges, I don't think the likes of JC make a 'budget' for anyone else. Yuasa have a contract with Halfords to supply their batteries, but that doesn't mean the Halfords batteries will be to the same spec as the Yuasa top spec batteries. They will be built to the spec that the Halfords contract/budget stipulates. If the budget is high the quality will be high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 HI there Hankook are the majority owners of Atlas BX who make the Hankook battery range for themselves. It is true that some Lucas, Numax , AC Delco product comes from the same factory but usually with different labels. Atlas Hankook will not make anything that is not on their website, if you have a Hankook battery and a another Atlas manufactured battery and they are identical in weight but one has a higher spec than their own label you can use your imagination what is going on. Hankook batteries only come form the AtlasBX factory where as Lucas and Numax etc etc and even Yuasa come form many different factories with different specifications. But regardless of the correct spec Atlas/Hankook batteries are regarded within the industry as having the best product even if it does have a Lucas label My main point is battery specs should be honest and to the same standard and there is no excuses why they are not regardless of who made what. The NCC endorse product to have higher specs than the manufactures are stating, and if you ask the NCC for the test to prove why they are endorsing the product they can't give you any Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 Baron - 2018-07-10 3:22 PM But regardless of the correct spec Atlas/Hankook batteries are regarded within the industry as having the best product even if it does have a Lucas label Sorry I can't agree with that at all. I don't know of any test where they have shone above other batteries, in endurance, quality, technical ability or anything else. Once again you make the claim that Hankook are the best in the industry? Can you show me documents that re-inforce your claim? Secondly, I saw two Atlasbx batteries that had been supplied as test examples for a potential Traffic Lights system contract, both supposedly heavy duty, deep cycling batteries. One lasted an appalling awful 30 cycles before failing and the other around 70 cycles. You will note that provides evidence of poor quality control for two identical batteries to be so different, one having half the life of the other. In addition, for a heavy duty deep cycle batteries to have such poor performance is a strong indication of what buyers can expect. Someone of a pessimistic nature, might be inclined to wonder if you are connected with the company in some way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 16, 2018 Author Share Posted July 16, 2018 We have a small victory. Our criticism of how the NCC verified battery PDF Chart is organised, HAS been taken on board by the NCC. The chart has been updated and some batteries removed since we started our campaign. A snapshot of the chart back in May 2017 shows differences to that being displayed today, 16/07/2018. We need to find time to study the 'before and after' charts to see exactly what has changed, but some progress. Our web page has also been updated today with another document. This time one of the Caravan Club, Camping Club and NCC's own, where the scheme stipulates that to 'test' a battery, the manufacturer only needs to test it for 6 of the claimed 2,000 cycles to 'prove' it will achieve the claimed cycle life. Obviously a battery with claimed cycle life of 900 cycles, or whatever, should not be verified unless it achieves those 900 cycles. How can a test of just 6 cycles be any sort of verification at all? Totally against the claims and spirit of the scheme. So even where any BS EN testing is carried out, and we have shown that for the lesser battery manufacturers it isn't, the testing is wholly inadequate to use as the basis of a 'Verified' certificate, see - http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/campaign-for-battery-change.php I can't attach it below, but look for page 5 in the NCC document on our web page, where it states - "6.1.7 The testing shall then be repeated until a sequence of 6 cycles has been completed". Hopefully Motorhome Fun will take up the challenge again and ask the NCC for an explanation? Then again the NCC will probably employ the same Politician they used last time to write the reply, and not actually answer the question - https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/ncc-verified-battery-scheme-latest.178056/page-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plwsm2000 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Maybe a small victory Allan, but the battle is far from over. The August issue of the MMM magazine just dropped through my letterbox and it contains an article about motorhome batteries. Unfortunately the article makes many references to the NCC scheme (all positive of course). It also does not mention anything about the different types (flooded, Gel, AGM, Lithium), %DOD or even charger requirements. Some of the quotes in the article - "... the NCC has developed an approved battery scheme that independently tests and rates the various different battery types on sale" "If you're considering buying a battery that hasn't yet been tested by the NCC, pick a brand you've heard of and see how heavy it is..." The article lists 6 different batteries - Numax DC31MF, Bosch L5 080, Exide ER550, Banner 95901, Platinum AGM LB6110L and Haze HVB-EV12-110. The first 4 are apparently NCC Class B and the last 2 are Class A. The review of the Haze battery says "It's a Class A rated AGM unit that delivered a healthy 600 life cycles when tested by the NCC" Overall, quite a misleading article IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les W Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 plwsm2000 - 2018-07-16 2:23 PM Maybe a small victory Allan, but the battle is far from over. The August issue of the MMM magazine just dropped through my letterbox and it contains an article about motorhome batteries. Unfortunately the article makes many references to the NCC scheme (all positive of course). It also does not mention anything about the different types (flooded, Gel, AGM, Lithium), %DOD or even charger requirements. Some of the quotes in the article - "... the NCC has developed an approved battery scheme that independently tests and rates the various different battery types on sale" "If you're considering buying a battery that hasn't yet been tested by the NCC, pick a brand you've heard of and see how heavy it is..." The article lists 6 different batteries - Numax DC31MF, Bosch L5 080, Exide ER550, Banner 95901, Platinum AGM LB6110L and Haze HVB-EV12-110. The first 4 are apparently NCC Class B and the last 2 are Class A. The review of the Haze battery says "It's a Class A rated AGM unit that delivered a healthy 600 life cycles when tested by the NCC" Overall, quite a misleading article IMHO. I posted a thread about the latest MMM magazine,and the dubious article, very very disappointed if MMM are not investigating whether the NCC is a scam or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 For many years whenever I needed a replacement leisure battery I used to visit a commercial vehicle breakers yard and but a heavy duty 12v ex truck starter battery and they were always cheap and never once let me down. Then I became more affluent and electrically educated so I bought 'proper' (allegedly) leisure batteries and they became the bane of my life over lots of vans and lots of years. Progress eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Well done Alan for you victory with the NCC My point is people have to be very careful what they are buying because specification on batteries were not policed for such a long time some distributors who don’t sell Manufactures brands such as Varta, Hankook, Yuasa etc have been over exaggerating specifications. The Authorities have been investigating for the last 2 years and are in another round of testing in an attempt to clean the industry up because they know they need to do it now before the same happens with lithium. Unfortunately some within the battery industry have not woken up to the fact this is viewed as fraud and has the same consequence. The claims on lithium are simply outrageous, a lot of the lithium in the UK seems to just be rebranded poor quality product, if you look at the leading USA product (which there are 2) you see the price is high and the claims are way lower and real. Lithium has many benefits but mostly you can save 50% weight or gain 50% more power, you can’t have both. Lead Acid has its place and so does lithium but there is no room for false specs in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 So I suggest you look at p. 166 and 171 of the MMM magazine that has just arrived, with a recommendation for Lithium-iron (sic) batteries in the "tech help" section! And don't go near p. 186. ....or p. 212! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 16, 2018 Author Share Posted July 16, 2018 It is only very small progress, but little is better than none. We have also hit one of the biggest UK battery wholesalers where it hurts most, in the Cash Register. Had a phone call from the MD today, exerting 'light' pressure. That may hopefully mean they bring pressure to bear to drive change. They know we have more punches yet to throw, so I am optimistic. They said conversations have already taken place with more to follow, so we will see. What I love about the Haze HVB-EV12-110 'Heavy Duty' battery in the MMM article is the 12 month warranty. That is real confidence in the product. :D As for the Platinum AGM LB6110L it is similar size to an Exide EP900 at 100Ah (despite the 'model' name trying to mislead you it is a 110Ah) and is able to deliver the same 360 cycles, yet it's weight is 25.0 kg versus the Exides 32.8kg. Aren't Exide rubbish needing so much Lead in their battery to achieve what the Platinium does with a huge amount less. Obviously Exide, with their huge reputation for quality, are just letting the side down. Well done Platinum for breaking the laws of chemistry. Of course well done the NCC for verifying it so thoroughly and weeding out the rubbish for us. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomsonjuk Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Not only the Li batteries but the recommendation to use the NCC verified list??? - I take it the editor and feature writers dont pay attention to what is written in their own forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les W Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 I thought the article was an utter disgrace, the magazine is loosing all credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Les W - 2018-07-16 10:30 PM I thought the article was an utter disgrace, the magazine is loosing all credibility. The magazine, like all magazines, has to be careful not to bite the hand that feeds it which is why negative comments about anything are so rare and as far as I am concerened, along with every other magazine, it never did have any credibility and is only ever worth a quick glance at an old copy in the dentist waiting room! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willum Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Tracker - 2018-07-17 10:20 AM Les W - 2018-07-16 10:30 PM I thought the article was an utter disgrace, the magazine is loosing all credibility. The magazine, like all magazines, has to be careful not to bite the hand that feeds it which is why negative comments about anything are so rare and as far as I am concerened, along with every other magazine, it never did have any credibility and is only ever worth a quick glance at an old copy in the dentist waiting room! Yep, sadly we probably couldn't afford to buy a magazine that didn't rely very heavily on advertising as a source of money for its production. There is a tendency for them to 'sell their soul to the Devil' in a attempt to keep going. It's a sad comment on journalism and human nature - but it's by no means the only example. We need the Alans of this world to keep them on their toes. Well done and keep it up. We should all be very thankful to you for your efforts to clean up what's become the bane of many a Motorhomer's and Caravaner's life. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 It is more likely that the article was prepared before the real facts came to light. Keep up the good work Alan. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 Thank you everyone. I have not seen the MMM battery article, so may I ask if the article stated that the Haze battery needed extra special charging? As an AGM it obviously needs a special AGM charger, but was it made clear it needed extra special attention again, not just a nicety but vital? Haze state for it's AGM batteries - "To obtain the optimum cycle life performance from the Haze range it is vital that the correct charging profile is utilised. Haze specifies a charging profile with an equilizing/desulphation phase as detailed in the Haze document “Charging - Cyclic Applications". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plwsm2000 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Allan, There are actually two separate articles in the magazine this month about batteries. One is titled "Leisure battery basics" and the other "Power Packed" but neither mention different charger arrangements for AGM (or about any settings on the EBL for different battery types). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 Phil sent me copies of the battery tests and the battery 'Tech' page 'Sponsored by Ecobat'. To me. it all reads like a promotion for the NCC verified scheme. Maybe it's the industries way of trying to 'prove the accusers wrong' and address any damage? They might have reason to regret that though as there is now significantly more evidence in the public domain. See further down the page for more on this. You can't blame Clive Mott for getting involved, the NCC verified battery scheme was his baby. We finally have a meeting arranged with the 'Senior Enforcement Officer of the Office for Product Safety and Standards'. That is 'Trading Standards' to you and me, but the 'heavy' version. We have submitted our evidence both on the way the NCC verified battery scheme is presented compared to how it actually operates. They have asked to meet next week to see if they will get behind our new battery labelling idea using 'Food labelling' style Traffic Lights to show things like Cycle Life. The idea is that the cycle life will be shown in a circle, just like it is on the new Yuasa Batteries but the circle will be coloured to indicate whether the battery is a 'light duty' battery (Red coloured circle) through Orange for a medium duty battery to Green for a Super Heavy Duty Deep cycler. A Consumer will be able to see at a glance how the battery is designed to perform, regardless of what the battery description states. Makes it easy for Trading Standards to pick up a battery, test it and prosecute if it doesn't match the label. At the moment most batteries don't have enough info on the label for Trading Standards to make a strong case against it's manufacturer or seller. It was interesting to hear that promoting an AGM battery, as the MMM battery article did and the NCC do, into an environment not suited to it's use is regarded as 'a bit naughty', just as you might expect. When all AGM battery manufacturers strongly state that they must ONLY be used with AGM charging systems, to promote them (they made the point that it doesn't need to be actual selling) into an environment where AGM chargers won't be installed could be an offence. To promote them without any warning they 'may not be fit for purpose', IS an offence, apparently. They didn't comment much on the verified batteries that have not actually been verified 'with due diligence' as per the schemes claims. Except to say that the 'suspect' batteries need to be put through a test. If the tests prove the claims are false, then they can prosecute. Get this, not just prosecute the battery manufacturers, but those that claim to verify and promote those claims. Guess who bought 6 batteries for testing today for shipping off to our new friends in Germany? Too much of a backlog here in the UK, we are still waiting for our other batteries to be tested. I know it was only one month since we did our Tour of the Battery test Facility and submitted the batteries, for full testing, but it seems an age ago to me. Been a very busy boy today. Soooo looking forward to the meeting next week. There is so much going on and queued up, I wish I could tell it all. Not very good at keeping hushed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Allen Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Alan Please keep up the good work and keep us informed as much as you can legally get away with. This is far more educating and interesting than any of the dramas currently on TV. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisD Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Allan Fantastic work. Thank you. I replaced the AGM supplied with my new motorhome (April 2017) with a Varta LFD 90 and Votronic solar controller based on your advice on this forum. I have just returned from five weeks in France with horrible temperatures 34c plus and the system has been faultless. The AGM running on a 100w solar panel back at base supplying a low voltage camera system is dead!. Note the dates April 2017 to July 2018 with a one year battery warranty. Regulation for this battery industry is sorely overdue and I thank you for your efforts and expertise. If you wanted to setup a fund to contribute towards your time I would happily chip in. (Limits apply) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 ChrisD - 2018-07-19 7:39 PM If you wanted to setup a fund to contribute towards your time I would happily chip in. (Limits apply) Me too, I still have an old Monopoly set with loadsa lolly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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