Guest pelmetman Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-08-07 7:59 AM Is a philosopher useless? Logically ...........yes :D ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 John52 - 2018-08-06 10:44 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-08-06 6:58 PM I don't understand Dave's point. All a degree does is provide its holder with greater knowledge about a particular subject than the average person is likely to have. We all need people with degrees when there is a complex challenge that requires specialised knowledge to solve. Electricians and plumbers generally do what others decide they will do. We need them to do their bit well or the electrics or plumbing won't function correctly. But, behind the electrician or plumber is an engineer who has designed the installation, and the engineer will be educated to degree level because to design the installation he will need to have wider knowledge than the man who carries out the installation. I once queried an electrical engineer on how many sockets he could installed onto a ring main according to the IEE (now IET) Regulations. Ah yes, he said, but the regulations are for electricians. I'm an MIEE engineer, and MIEE engineers write the IEE regulations, and are not bound by them. If I calculate the diversity on the total likely load on the circuit, and it is within the capacity of the circuit wiring and circuit fuse, I can install pretty well as many sockets as I like. Even Dave's Fanny was designed by engineers (mainly MI Mech E variety) and not by mechanics. If those who study a field of knowledge to degree standard (or above) all said "well, I'll just go off and be a plumber instead of doing what interests me, because plumbers earn more than I will in my chosen field", the market for plumbers would soon be oversubscribed (so plumbers' earnings would tumble), and we'd have no plumbing engineers (members of CIBSE of CIPHE) to design the installations for plumbers to install. We need both highly educated specialists and highly trained practitioners to turn the specialists' creations into the objects, tools, instruments, structures, vehicles, ships, aircraft etc. etc. that we all use in the course of our lives. People's earnings are no guide to how clever they are. If that were true, all footballers would have PHDs. (That is not to say that someone with a PHD could not also acquire the skill to become an extremely good footballer, but how many footballers have the academic ability to gain a PHD? They are different skill sets, with different applications, to be taken up by those most suited to each.) As I asked above, what is Dave's real point in crowing that some poor kids have loaded themselves with debt as a consequence of being conned into spending three years studying a subject that does not guarantee them a higher than average salary? Somehow, it just seems to be the chant of the Luddite seeking a world in which everything is transactional, with no room for specialists, creative thinkers, or dreamers. As long as they are useful degrees. But Dr Fred Dibnah made the point that when British Industry led the world, very few British people went on to further education because only the rich could afford it. The vast majority went straight into productive industry and learnt at the sharp end - like he did. Wheras now we tend to cream off the brightest kids at the peak of their learning ability and teach them non-productive subjects instead. :-S I agree some university courses are quite ridiculous and not particularly beneficial to anyone. As for Dibnah....they broke mould and threw it away when he was 'made'! That guy was a legend in his own lifetime and a rarity today. I don't think there was anything he couldn't turn his hand to and i will always remember the first time i saw his abilities as a draughtsman.....sheer works of art. There are others who are 'not what you'd expect'. Take Brian May, lead guitarist from Queen with a PhD in Astrophysics, Prof Brian Cox, particle physics and astronomy who began life in a pop 'boy band'. Bruce Dickinson, lead singer with Iron Maiden, fencing at international standard represented UK plus fully qualified civil airline pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-08-07 7:59 AM Non-productive in who's opinion? Is a philosopher useless? . I really can't believe that being a philosopher is a full time job. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 malc d - 2018-08-07 12:30 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-08-07 7:59 AM Non-productive in who's opinion? Is a philosopher useless? . I really can't believe that being a philosopher is a full time job. ;-) According to Wikipedia, philosophy involves questioning, critical discussion, rational argument, and systematic presentation. So, as a purely philosophical point, are those activities truly useless, or is it a limitation in what you believe that prevents you from seeing how they might be a full time activity? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-08-08 5:19 PM malc d - 2018-08-07 12:30 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-08-07 7:59 AM Non-productive in who's opinion? Is a philosopher useless? . I really can't believe that being a philosopher is a full time job. ;-) According to Wikipedia, philosophy involves questioning, critical discussion, rational argument, and systematic presentation. So, as a purely philosophical point, are those activities truly useless, or is it a limitation in what you believe that prevents you from seeing how they might be a full time activity? :-D Actually Brian, I think anyone who can persuade others to pay him a substantial salary merely to sit and think about life and the universe as a full time career, should be considered a genius. I just wish I'd thought of it . ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Perhaps some are brighter than I thought B-) .......... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6075017/TOBY-YOUNG-no-wonder-degrees-going-fashion.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-08-19 10:25 AM Perhaps some are brighter than I thought B-) .......... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6075017/TOBY-YOUNG-no-wonder-degrees-going-fashion.html So i the Daily Mail thinks anyone with a brain to work things out for themselves is left wing *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 John52 - 2018-08-19 6:04 PM pelmetman - 2018-08-19 10:25 AM Perhaps some are brighter than I thought B-) .......... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6075017/TOBY-YOUNG-no-wonder-degrees-going-fashion.html So i the Daily Mail thinks anyone with a brain to work things out for themselves is left wing *-) Yeah the bright ones are working out they don't need to be fed left wing tripe and be charged 50k for the privilege :D ............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 So which profession can one enter without a degree? I don't think Mr Young knows of what he speaks (again!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-08-21 7:10 PM So which profession can one enter without a degree? I don't think Mr Young knows of what he speaks (again!). My granddaughter has just started her 3 year apprenticeship with an accountantcy company they are paying her and the fees for her Association of Chartered Accountants qualification. Sooner than going to uni and copping a massive debt. She is one hell of a smart cookie. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-08-21 7:10 PM So which profession can one enter without a degree? Politician? If you can call it a profession? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-08-21 7:10 PM So which profession can one enter without a degree? I don't think Mr Young knows of what he speaks (again!). By restricting access to those with degrees they're actually just reinforcing educational snobbery *-) ........ I'd rather employ a professional who had the ability than just a degree ;-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 teflon2 - 2018-08-21 7:32 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-08-21 7:10 PM So which profession can one enter without a degree? I don't think Mr Young knows of what he speaks (again!). My granddaughter has just started her 3 year apprenticeship with an accountantcy company they are paying her and the fees for her Association of Chartered Accountants qualification. Sooner than going to uni and copping a massive debt. She is one hell of a smart cookie. *-) Good for her. Same qualification and on the job experience as she studies. Hope it isn't PWC! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Tracker - 2018-08-21 7:36 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-08-21 7:10 PM So which profession can one enter without a degree? Politician? If you can call it a profession? Nope! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-08-21 8:21 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-08-21 7:10 PM So which profession can one enter without a degree? I don't think Mr Young knows of what he speaks (again!). By restricting access to those with degrees they're actually just reinforcing educational snobbery *-) ........ I'd rather employ a professional who had the ability than just a degree ;-) .......... Up to a point Lord Copper! :-) The degree is only a proof of having completed the necessary basic training, after which the graduate has to become a member of their professional association - which frequently requires them to gain hands-on experience working and in some cases further study - before they are judged fit to practise in their own right and can gain admittance to their profession. So strictly, you couldn't employ a professional with just a degree, as they also have to have the full qualifications for admission to their professional institute before they can practise. In principle, it doesn't really matter what kind of institution they study at, because the courses are moderated by the professions to ensure they are of the required standard, but the great majority of those institution are, like it or not, now universities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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