Brian Kirby Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-10-25 8:22 PM. ………………..Cant say I've heard any sound argument for another referendum *-) .......... Just a constant bitching......which I guess passes as sound arguments to Remoaners >:-) ......... To judge if an argument is sound requires a bit more than just dismissing it because one doesn't like it. There are a million shades of grey that come between good and bad, left and right, Brexit or remain, etc. What you dismiss as bitching are the arguments in favour of re-appraising Brexit in the light of present knowledge. Sorry, I don't understand bitching as a counter argument. It has no logical weight. It is just, in itself, bitching (which I take to mean that the user of the term has no proper argument to advance, so resorts to impotent epithets instead). QED? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted October 26, 2018 Author Share Posted October 26, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-10-25 8:22 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-10-25 6:52 PM pelmetman - 2018-10-25 2:24 PM...…………………..If there is another referendum and you win........do you think us Brexiteers will just crawl back into our holes and die? *-) ........... Nah the fight will go on >:-) .........and we'll expect another referendum within the same timescale as yours ..........anything else would be undemocratic :-| ........... On the first point, no, of course I don't. Farage said he'd carry on if he Brexit was lost by a narrow margin, so what's sauce for the goose etc. If there is a sound argument for a new referendum subsequently, then fine, lets have one. But pleading for a re-run on the basis of time elapsed since last time is hardly an argument for a re-run. There would need to be something that the EU had decided upon, that was against UK interests, and that the UK could not opt out of, to justify a further referendum. Cant say I've heard any sound argument for another referendum *-) .......... Just a constant bitching......which I guess passes as sound arguments to Remoaners >:-) ......... Heres a sound argument for you. How many of that 17 million voted for either a bad deal or no deal? None I would hope (Well maybe you). Thats what is looking like being on the table though isnt it? Its perfectly clear why we need another vote just based on that. Brexit is not as described, not fit for purpose. If you had bought Brexit on Ebay unseen you would be sending it back for sure. We are not even asking you to send it back, just asking that the public get the chance to decide once they have seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-10-26 11:54 AM pelmetman - 2018-10-25 8:22 PM. ………………..Cant say I've heard any sound argument for another referendum *-) .......... Just a constant bitching......which I guess passes as sound arguments to Remoaners >:-) ......... To judge if an argument is sound requires a bit more than just dismissing it because one doesn't like it. There are a million shades of grey that come between good and bad, left and right, Brexit or remain, etc. What you dismiss as bitching are the arguments in favour of re-appraising Brexit in the light of present knowledge. Sorry, I don't understand bitching as a counter argument. It has no logical weight. It is just, in itself, bitching (which I take to mean that the user of the term has no proper argument to advance, so resorts to impotent epithets instead). QED? Sound argument from the " Remoaner Brigade " is just mere propaganda backed up by nothing more than the opinions of the "Self Interested experts" trying to preserve their gravy trains *-) ........... That said.......If I'm proved wrong after 44 years, I don't object to they're being another referendum :D ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 Barryd999 - 2018-10-18 8:59 AM http://www.senat.fr/leg/pjl18-009.html All checks of goods and passengers will be restablished immediately as will SPS, veterinary checks and default safety customs declarations/checks. Goodbye M20, goodbye M26; hello £250m lost per day to the UK economy. How dare they take back control of their borders! That was our idea! Dont they know who we are? Except its not our idea now apparently. Our plan is just to not bother with checks and let everything through. So much for taking back control of our borders then. There is just one floor in that idea though of waving everything through. Under WTO rules which the Brexiteers seem to love so much if you do that for one border or nation you have to do it for absolutely everyone you deal with at all ports and airports. Ooops. Still. We will have our blue passports. Pity we wont be able to get anywhere near our ports to use them. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45990243 (lol) (lol) (lol) ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted October 26, 2018 Author Share Posted October 26, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-10-26 5:22 PM Barryd999 - 2018-10-18 8:59 AM http://www.senat.fr/leg/pjl18-009.html All checks of goods and passengers will be restablished immediately as will SPS, veterinary checks and default safety customs declarations/checks. Goodbye M20, goodbye M26; hello £250m lost per day to the UK economy. How dare they take back control of their borders! That was our idea! Dont they know who we are? Except its not our idea now apparently. Our plan is just to not bother with checks and let everything through. So much for taking back control of our borders then. There is just one floor in that idea though of waving everything through. Under WTO rules which the Brexiteers seem to love so much if you do that for one border or nation you have to do it for absolutely everyone you deal with at all ports and airports. Ooops. Still. We will have our blue passports. Pity we wont be able to get anywhere near our ports to use them. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45990243 (lol) (lol) (lol) ........... I never said they would "Close down Calais" Dave. The official report is the official stance of the EU and France that all checks of goods and passengers will be reestablished immediately as will SPS, veterinary checks and default safety customs declarations/checks. How can they not be? We are leaving the EU so unless we agree to stay in the single market and customs union then it will be the same checks at all the ports, not just Calais. How can it be otherwise? I dont suppose the French are happy about it but they will have no choice. It wont be closed, just a disaster area,. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-10-26 5:19 PM.....................Sound argument from the " Remoaner Brigade " is just mere propaganda backed up by nothing more than the opinions of the "Self Interested experts" trying to preserve their gravy trains *-) ........... That said.......If I'm proved wrong after 44 years, I don't object to they're being another referendum :D ...... But it isn't, is it? It is reasoned, fact based, argument, that in almost every case points in the same direction: that the UK will be poorer post Brexit than would be the case if we remained in. If you knowingly voted to make the UK poorer, I can only say there will be an awful lot of people who will want to know why in future. If you accidentally voted to make the UK poorer, a further referendum will give you an opportunity to correct the accident. The bonus is, you'll never need to say. What could possibly be wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-10-27 10:23 AM pelmetman - 2018-10-26 5:19 PM.....................Sound argument from the " Remoaner Brigade " is just mere propaganda backed up by nothing more than the opinions of the "Self Interested experts" trying to preserve their gravy trains *-) ........... That said.......If I'm proved wrong after 44 years, I don't object to they're being another referendum :D ...... But it isn't, is it? It is reasoned, fact based, argument, that in almost every case points in the same direction: that the UK will be poorer post Brexit than would be the case if we remained in. If you knowingly voted to make the UK poorer, I can only say there will be an awful lot of people who will want to know why in future. If you accidentally voted to make the UK poorer, a further referendum will give you an opportunity to correct the accident. The bonus is, you'll never need to say. What could possibly be wrong with that? He 'cares' enough about it to run away from Brexit bonkers UK to spend half the year contributing to the economy of an EU country! He may well find his wings being clipped now though. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-10-27 3:56 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-10-27 10:23 AM pelmetman - 2018-10-26 5:19 PM.....................Sound argument from the " Remoaner Brigade " is just mere propaganda backed up by nothing more than the opinions of the "Self Interested experts" trying to preserve their gravy trains *-) ........... That said.......If I'm proved wrong after 44 years, I don't object to they're being another referendum :D ...... But it isn't, is it? It is reasoned, fact based, argument, that in almost every case points in the same direction: that the UK will be poorer post Brexit than would be the case if we remained in. If you knowingly voted to make the UK poorer, I can only say there will be an awful lot of people who will want to know why in future. If you accidentally voted to make the UK poorer, a further referendum will give you an opportunity to correct the accident. The bonus is, you'll never need to say. What could possibly be wrong with that? He 'cares' enough about it to run away from Brexit bonkers UK to spend half the year contributing to the economy of an EU country! He may well find his wings being clipped now though. ;-) That's prolly why you run away to spend time in Right Wing Countries like Poland etc???? (lol) (lol) (lol) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-10-27 10:23 AM pelmetman - 2018-10-26 5:19 PM.....................Sound argument from the " Remoaner Brigade " is just mere propaganda backed up by nothing more than the opinions of the "Self Interested experts" trying to preserve their gravy trains *-) ........... That said.......If I'm proved wrong after 44 years, I don't object to they're being another referendum :D ...... But it isn't, is it? It is reasoned, fact based, argument, that in almost every case points in the same direction: that the UK will be poorer post Brexit than would be the case if we remained in. If you knowingly voted to make the UK poorer, I can only say there will be an awful lot of people who will want to know why in future. If you accidentally voted to make the UK poorer, a further referendum will give you an opportunity to correct the accident. The bonus is, you'll never need to say. What could possibly be wrong with that? Brian.....It's not reasoned when it comes from those who benefit from the status quo *-) ........ Sadly your EU bias has infected your normal thinking process :-( ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-10-27 6:41 PM...……………...Brian.....It's not reasoned when it comes from those who benefit from the status quo *-) ........ Sadly your EU bias has infected your normal thinking process :-( ........ Why not? It is reasoning based on self-interest. What about those who voted for Brexit because they expected to be better off post Brexit. Did all those people who thought the Health Service etc etc would benefit from the savings it was claimed would result from Brexit? Are you saying that only votes cast for purely altruistic reasons should have been counted? I suspect that would have resulted in the quickest count in history! :-D It may not be noble, but reasoned, in both cases, it most certainly was. The real question is whether the reasoning was soundly based, or based on the propaganda. The answer to that, surely, is both, in presently unknowable proportions. But, it seems at least some who voted in line with the propaganda have since realised what influenced them was unsound, and changed their minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-10-27 7:44 PM pelmetman - 2018-10-27 6:41 PM...……………...Brian.....It's not reasoned when it comes from those who benefit from the status quo *-) ........ Sadly your EU bias has infected your normal thinking process :-( ........ Why not? It is reasoning based on self-interest. What about those who voted for Brexit because they expected to be better off post Brexit. Did all those people who thought the Health Service etc etc would benefit from the savings it was claimed would result from Brexit? Are you saying that only votes cast for purely altruistic reasons should have been counted? I suspect that would have resulted in the quickest count in history! :-D It may not be noble, but reasoned, in both cases, it most certainly was. The real question is whether the reasoning was soundly based, or based on the propaganda. The answer to that, surely, is both, in presently unknowable proportions. But, it seems at least some who voted in line with the propaganda have since realised what influenced them was unsound, and changed their minds. You've been reading that Remoaner propaganda again ;-) .......... But seeing as you accept both sides are unknowable :-| ......... How can you say Brexit will not benefit the UK? :-S ....... Oh......I forgot .....you're a Remoaner :D .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-10-27 10:11 PM........................You've been reading that Remoaner propaganda again ;-) .......... But seeing as you accept both sides are unknowable :-| ......... How can you say Brexit will not benefit the UK? :-S ....... Oh......I forgot .....you're a Remoaner :D .......... Ah, but again you seek to dismiss any view other than your own, on the mere basis that it is not what you think. To know the actual consequences of either remain or leave it would be necessary to live both. But that option is not feasible, so the only aid to deciding which course offers the best overall outcomes for the UK, is economic forecasting. From your posts on here, it seems that you dismiss all such forecasts out of hand because a) you don't read the actual forecasts, only what your favoured (pro Brexit) media reports say of them, b) because they almost all point to any forms of Brexit as a worse option for the UK economy than remaining in, and c) because some have proved wrong. You ask how I can say Brexit will not benefit the UK. First I do not say it "will not", I say that the available forecasts point to that outcome. How I do that is first by looking at the authors of the forecasts, to form an opinion as to their neutrality, to understand who commissioned the work, and to be confident that the forecaster is well respected. To eliminate, as far as I am able, the wronguns, I reject any who are identifiably biased, whose work was commissioned by biased organisations, and those who are not well respected. I then look for the majority view among the remaining forecasters. On this basis, I have concluded that Brexit is more likely to be economically damaging than remaining in. I accept that this might be wrong but, since we can't try both, I go with what seems most likely to deliver the better outcome. It is a decision on a balance of probabilities. Given a body of evidence that points in one direction, albeit not exclusively, albeit with varying results, it seems to me incomprehensible to disregard it in favour of taking the opposite path. I am influenced in this by the experiences of a past work colleague who, faced with a tricky decision, would consult everyone else on what he should do, and then almost invariably do the opposite. He was a nice chap, but could never understand why his decisions so often went wrong! There's nowt so queer as folk, is there? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-10-27 6:37 PM Bulletguy - 2018-10-27 3:56 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-10-27 10:23 AM pelmetman - 2018-10-26 5:19 PM.....................Sound argument from the " Remoaner Brigade " is just mere propaganda backed up by nothing more than the opinions of the "Self Interested experts" trying to preserve their gravy trains *-) ........... That said.......If I'm proved wrong after 44 years, I don't object to they're being another referendum :D ...... But it isn't, is it? It is reasoned, fact based, argument, that in almost every case points in the same direction: that the UK will be poorer post Brexit than would be the case if we remained in. If you knowingly voted to make the UK poorer, I can only say there will be an awful lot of people who will want to know why in future. If you accidentally voted to make the UK poorer, a further referendum will give you an opportunity to correct the accident. The bonus is, you'll never need to say. What could possibly be wrong with that? He 'cares' enough about it to run away from Brexit bonkers UK to spend half the year contributing to the economy of an EU country! He may well find his wings being clipped now though. ;-) That's prolly why you run away to spend time in Right Wing Countries like Poland etc???? (lol) (lol) (lol) .. FYI i spend my time touring a variety of European countries, not just Poland, but also legitimately unlike you who blatantly abuses the UK system each year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-10-28 8:23 PM pelmetman - 2018-10-27 10:11 PM........................You've been reading that Remoaner propaganda again ;-) .......... But seeing as you accept both sides are unknowable :-| ......... How can you say Brexit will not benefit the UK? :-S ....... Oh......I forgot .....you're a Remoaner :D .......... Ah, but again you seek to dismiss any view other than your own, on the mere basis that it is not what you think. So we do have something in common :D .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-10-28 9:39 PM pelmetman - 2018-10-27 6:37 PM Bulletguy - 2018-10-27 3:56 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-10-27 10:23 AM pelmetman - 2018-10-26 5:19 PM.....................Sound argument from the " Remoaner Brigade " is just mere propaganda backed up by nothing more than the opinions of the "Self Interested experts" trying to preserve their gravy trains *-) ........... That said.......If I'm proved wrong after 44 years, I don't object to they're being another referendum :D ...... But it isn't, is it? It is reasoned, fact based, argument, that in almost every case points in the same direction: that the UK will be poorer post Brexit than would be the case if we remained in. If you knowingly voted to make the UK poorer, I can only say there will be an awful lot of people who will want to know why in future. If you accidentally voted to make the UK poorer, a further referendum will give you an opportunity to correct the accident. The bonus is, you'll never need to say. What could possibly be wrong with that? He 'cares' enough about it to run away from Brexit bonkers UK to spend half the year contributing to the economy of an EU country! He may well find his wings being clipped now though. ;-) That's prolly why you run away to spend time in Right Wing Countries like Poland etc???? (lol) (lol) (lol) .. FYI i spend my time touring a variety of European countries, not just Poland, but also legitimately unlike you who blatantly abuses the UK system each year. Yeah they all require a Left turn at Dover :D .............I bet you feel at home in Right wing Poland ;-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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