Barryd999 Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-11-08 10:04 PM Barryd999 - 2018-11-08 9:40 PM Tracker - 2018-11-08 5:50 PM Barryd999 - 2018-11-08 5:35 PM Ah so we shouldnt give them the vote in case they dont vote Tory. They are going to turn 18 at some point Rich. Whichever way you look at it unless there is a final vote on Brexit there are going to be several million adults paying into the system that are inheriting your mess that never even got a chance to vote on it. Brexit has dragged on way too long and is way too much of a mess as it is not to have a vote on the final outcome and those people deserve a chance to have their say. Or did Democracy end on June 23 2016? Nice try Barry but that is not what I said and you know it! On the contrary let's give 10 year olds the vote as they can't make a bigger balls up of running the country than the so called adults have. It's not my mess, I only ever voted for a free market, not the self serving top heavy cash consuming monolith that is the EU. Nobody asked me for many years if it was what I wanted, and it ain't! Well it is kind of what you said "Brilliant idea Barry, lets hope they all vote socialist" What ever happens next is your mess and everyone who campaigned for Brexit. I wonder who you will all blame for all the problems once (or if) we leave. I know who I will be blaming when it all goes tits up. You're a natural Socialist Barry ;-) .......... Willing to blame anyone except yourselves for what's going on in the world *-) .......... (lol) Im no socialist and Im not the one blaming the EU for everything thats wrong with this country because I read it in the Daily Mail for the last twenty years. The irony is as well that if we leave the EU and it does all go to Rat sh1t you Brexiteers will still blame everyone but yourselves. IT will be the EUs fault for not needing us more than we need them or the remainers for not backing Brexit. Anyone but yourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-11-08 2:47 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-11-07 11:22 AM pelmetman - 2018-11-07 7:40 AM Bulletguy - 2018-11-07 1:58 AM Some 54% of people said they would stay in the EU if the 2016 referendum were held tomorrow – when those who refused to vote or answered “don’t know” were removed. "when those who refused to vote or answered “don’t know” were removed." So it's not 54% of the electorate is it Lord Haw Haw? :D ......... Nor was the referendum result. Sauce, goose & gander? :-D I know my memory is not what it was Brian ;-) ........ But I don't recall a "Don't Know" box on the ballot paper on the 23/06/2016 :-S ......... Well which way would you vote if you don't know what you want? Silly me, I forgot, you'd vote Brexit, of course. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Our Prime Minister is holding a firm line on "no repeat referendum", not least I suspect because these last minute brinkmanship-filled negotiations require a tough approach. I can't imagine she wil change her tune until at least after the negotiations are concluded, so that the EU doesn't kid itself that the UK can be expected to decide on a last minute decision to stay in the EU.Hopefully however our government is working out what the real consequences of an exit (deal or no deal) will be and will do the sensible thing which might include a parliamentary vote and/or a second referendum. We just can't let the EU become confident that there will be a rejection of Brexit by Parliament or a second referendum vote.Keep it up Theresa, you're doing a fine job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 StuartO - 2018-11-09 11:25 AM Our Prime Minister is holding a firm line on "no repeat referendum", not least I suspect because these last minute brinkmanship-filled negotiations require a tough approach. I can't imagine she wil change her tune until at least after the negotiations are concluded, so that the EU doesn't kid itself that the UK can be expected to decide on a last minute decision to stay in the EU. Hopefully however our government is working out what the real consequences of an exit (deal or no deal) will be and will do the sensible thing which might include a parliamentary vote and/or a second referendum. We just can't let the EU become confident that there will be a rejection of Brexit by Parliament or a second referendum vote. To your first point, that is the reason for demanding that the results of whatever deal is reached are put to the people for acceptance, in the full knowledge of what has been agreed. To your second, it seems it is, and is now convinced that the so called "hard" option will be economically damaging, and is increasingly learning that whatever option they can agree and can make work is also damaging, only less so. The EU is already well aware of public sentiment in the UK. Unlike some Brexiters, they are not isolationists, and are following our media closely. As we can't be confident of the possible outcome of either eventuality ourselves, and as the shambolic performance of the government (and the long standing Eurosplits in both our main parties) hardly transmits a firm resolve in either direction, their level of confidence can be no greater than ours. This "keep quiet in case you upset the Brexit applecart" is entirely disingenuous, and seems designed only to comfort those who want Brexit, but remain too uninformed to see the reality of were we actually are. I agree that it would be futile to hold any further vote based on present evidence, but if the eventual outcome is that any version of Brexit will be most likely to damage the economy, on which everyone in this country relies for their standard of living, then that prospect should be put to the people. To do otherwise will not only shrink the economy, but will result in a more intensely divided (I think potentially ungovernable) country, as our domestic politics degenerate into trench warfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-11-09 1:18 PM This "keep quiet in case you upset the Brexit applecart" is entirely disingenuous, and seems designed only to comfort those who want Brexit, but remain too uninformed to see the reality of were we actually are. I can see your angle from the point of view of a Europhile, but from another angle it could be argued that if the UK both politically and through the media were to put more of a united front to the EU following the vote to leave maybe negotiations would be a little less fraught and a little more constructive. That said nobody knows what the negotiations have achieved, only hints at what they have not. As it is both sides are playing a dangerous game and my perception is that the EU in particular want to make life as difficult as possible for the UK to dissuade any other disillusioned nations from going their own way, but then again that might just be a negotiating stance. I get the impression that the main EU thrust is divide and rule and not for a close neighbourly relationship. There is so much that is good about the EU that I am pretty sure an indepenedent UK would have negotiated us to be inside most of it over the years if we had never joined and I doubt very much that there would be the isolationist approach that both sides seem to be heading towards. Maybe both sides could be seen to be aiming towards placing both the UK and the EU where they most likely would have been had we not joined in 1973, but had remained, as we will be once more, close neighbours. It is a sad club that tries to punish a member for leaving, when leaving the door open to return would be a much more positive attitude more likely to swing people their way. Nobody likes being threatened and negotiations that are so confrontational do nothing to make lots of people want to remain in the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Other than the EU stating the obvious- ie You can't expect to automatically benefit from a "club" that you have chosen to leave- just how are the EU "threatening" the UK? Think back to the Scottish Independence referendum... because it seems to be that those making the most noise about how the UK is being "bullied" and "threatened", are the same ones who were shouting the loudest about how Scotland should get nowt and be told to just clear off... Double standards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Tracker - 2018-11-09 2:00 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-11-09 1:18 PM This "keep quiet in case you upset the Brexit applecart" is entirely disingenuous, and seems designed only to comfort those who want Brexit, but remain too uninformed to see the reality of were we actually are. I can see your angle from the point of view of a Europhile, but from another angle it could be argued that if the UK both politically and through the media were to put more of a united front to the EU following the vote to leave maybe negotiations would be a little less fraught and a little more constructive. That said nobody knows what the negotiations have achieved, only hints at what they have not. As it is both sides are playing a dangerous game and my perception is that the EU in particular want to make life as difficult as possible for the UK to dissuade any other disillusioned nations from going their own way, but then again that might just be a negotiating stance. I get the impression that the main EU thrust is divide and rule and not for a close neighbourly relationship. There is so much that is good about the EU that I am pretty sure an indepenedent UK would have negotiated us to be inside most of it over the years if we had never joined and I doubt very much that there would be the isolationist approach that both sides seem to be heading towards. Maybe both sides could be seen to be aiming towards placing both the UK and the EU where they most likely would have been had we not joined in 1973, but had remained, as we will be once more, close neighbours. It is a sad club that tries to punish a member for leaving, when leaving the door open to return would be a much more positive attitude more likely to swing people their way. Nobody likes being threatened and negotiations that are so confrontational do nothing to make lots of people want to remain in the EU. The punishment and bully card just cant be played Rich sorry. The EU have done neither. You called their bluff not understanding that the EU's protection of the single market and customs union is at the core of their red lines and cannot be breached or the rules bent for anyone, not just the UK. The big Brexit gamble was that they would bend the rules because its us. The old "Do you know who I am" line has just not paid off and why should it? Meanwhile we have flapped about like headless chickens not knowing what we want and even now at the 11th hour we still dont. You say the UK should put on a united front but how can it? Too late now but without a super majority which should always be required for such a massive political decision it was doomed from day one on a vote that could have been the other way around the week after and different again the week after that? The madness of it all is that we just seem unable to see that we have failed yet on we go like lemmings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 I reckon that second referendum just got a step closer. It feels like Brexit took a massive blow today as Jo Johnson resigns. Here is what Jo had to say. Good for him. https://medium.com/@JoJohnsonUK/why-i-cannot-support-the-governments-proposed-brexit-deal-3d289f95f2bc As I was driving home just now Stanley spoke on Five Live and he was brilliant, pretty much backed up what Jo had said but it was the best argument for a Peoples vote I have heard so far. Jo is putting the country before party and himself Lets hope there are more to come. Brexit is going to fall apart. And now it looks like she has lost the DUP support https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1109/1009709-brexit She really is steering the ship onto the rocks on purpose now surely. I would put second referendum 60:40 in favour now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted November 9, 2018 Author Share Posted November 9, 2018 Barryd999 - 2018-11-09 6:24 PM I reckon that second referendum just got a step closer. It feels like Brexit took a massive blow today as Jo Johnson resigns. Here is what Jo had to say. Good for him. https://medium.com/@JoJohnsonUK/why-i-cannot-support-the-governments-proposed-brexit-deal-3d289f95f2bc A man with principles......and common sense. Rare but admirable qualities from a Tory MP. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46155403 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Tracker - 2018-11-09 2:00 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-11-09 1:18 PM This "keep quiet in case you upset the Brexit applecart" is entirely disingenuous, and seems designed only to comfort those who want Brexit, but remain too uninformed to see the reality of were we actually are. I can see your angle from the point of view of a Europhile, but from another angle it could be argued that if the UK both politically and through the media were to put more of a united front to the EU following the vote to leave maybe negotiations would be a little less fraught and a little more constructive. That said nobody knows what the negotiations have achieved, only hints at what they have not. To which I would say that there seems to be nothing about Brexit around which its supporters can unite, except the single facile point that they want to leave. What none of them seem able to agree upon is the extent of the severance they want to see, or what future relationship they want for the UK. In short, while a united front might be helpful, there's no such a front anywhere in sight - even though its proponents have spent over had 2 years looking. It is a mirage. As it is both sides are playing a dangerous game and my perception is that the EU in particular want to make life as difficult as possible for the UK to dissuade any other disillusioned nations from going their own way, but then again that might just be a negotiating stance. I get the impression that the main EU thrust is divide and rule and not for a close neighbourly relationship. It is, and always was, obvious that the EU would much prefer the UK to remain a member. Equally, it is obvious they don't want our departure to spark a Hokey Cokey EU with countries being out one week, back in the next, and somewhere in-between, er, in-between. I'm just bemused that so many others don't seem to have grasped that this would be so. Apart from anything else, on what could they possibly base their budgets? There is so much that is good about the EU that I am pretty sure an indepenedent UK would have negotiated us to be inside most of it over the years if we had never joined and I doubt very much that there would be the isolationist approach that both sides seem to be heading towards. It is a package, and as such, inevitably, a curate's egg. It was what we then saw as good that led us to - eventually - join. The ECSC was formed in 1951. Britain was invited to join, but declined. In 1957 this morphed into the EEC, with Britain still outside. So, thinking European free trade was a good idea, we joined in the formation of EFTA in 1960. In 1961 McMillan made our first application for EEC membership. In 1963, De Gaulle said non! In 1967 Wilson applied to join the EEC. Again, De Gaulle said non! In 1968 the EEC became a Customs Union. In 1973 Heath applied for membership. No De Gaulle: Pompidou said oui! For all those years British governments wanted membership of a larger, European based, trading block. For all those years, starting in 1950 with Churchill's Zurich speech, in which he said "our task is to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe" we have been advocating for, trying to join, trying (unsuccessfully) to emulate, and finally joining, that European trading block. Can those leaders all have been so wrong? Maybe both sides could be seen to be aiming towards placing both the UK and the EU where they most likely would have been had we not joined in 1973, but had remained, as we will be once more, close neighbours. Well yes, but then maybe both sides do not share that common view. There seems to be a majority view within the EU that Britain should be in, and it is not based solely on the cynic's cry of "yes, because they want the money". The isolationists are here: the Europeans are there. My problem is that whereas I know and understand what we presently have within the EU, I still have not the slightest idea what version of our national interest is driving the Brexit idea. That may be because I'm too stupid to see it, but I see no solid prospectus that persuades me it is any more than a disparate group of people promoting dreams, some of whom I deeply distrust. Too may of them, when asked to explain how the benefits they claim will follow may, actually, be realised, talk fast and incessantly about anything else than that. So, I remain unconvinced, just as I am about the benefits of snake oil. :-) It is a sad club that tries to punish a member for leaving, when leaving the door open to return would be a much more positive attitude more likely to swing people their way. Nobody likes being threatened and negotiations that are so confrontational do nothing to make lots of people want to remain in the EU. I don't see the threats. What I see is the great difficulty of negotiating our way out of the seven international treaties that we have variously signed and shaped during our membership. We have taken on liabilities (present and future) as a consequence of signing those treaties, but we seem reluctant to accept that. Just the fact that we enter into treaties and then decide to withdraw from them is bad enough press. What would be the basis for any other country to enter a trade deal with the UK should they come to think we may just change our mind about it when it suited us? What would be the basis for any other country to believe us when we solemnly agree to pay whatever price is due if we seek to wriggle out of our EU commitments. Where will all these trade deals, that will be so quickly negotiated, and will so easily replace the trade we lose with European countries, come from, when we appear to be fickle and unreliable over staying the course and paying our dues? Finally, the present negotiations only concern our departure, and the associated costs thereof. They do not even begin to address the far more important future relationship with the EU, that it seems almost everyone thinks should follow. Is poking someone in the eye as you leave, really the best prelude to them looking favourably on you as a good, reliable, straight dealing, future trade partner? So, back to the beginning, has Brexit, even now, been properly thought through by those who advocated/voted for it? Answers on a postage stamp, please. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Thanks for the link Barry. It seems like the Johnson family are representative of the deep divisions this Brexit hell has inflicted on us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted November 9, 2018 Author Share Posted November 9, 2018 Violet1956 - 2018-11-09 6:58 PM Thanks for the link Barry. It seems like the Johnson family are representative of the deep divisions this Brexit hell has inflicted on us He's not alone. Rachel Johnson campaigned for Remain against Boris and her father appears to side more with him, so like many throughout UK it's a family split. The last time i remember anything similar was the miners strike which tore families apart which the wounds still remain today, and who can forget the taxi driver brutally murdered during that? We've had an MP murdered during the run up to the referendum. Brexit has brought the very worst out in some people and it was ill thought out and doomed from the beginning. Time it was brought to an end now with normal service resumed asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 Violet1956 - 2018-11-09 6:58 PM Thanks for the link Barry. It seems like the Johnson family are representative of the deep divisions this Brexit hell has inflicted on us Jo and Stanley have clarified something today though thats very important. Nobody wants Chequers. Their family is united on that one. Its the only thing left on the table apart from no deal and nobody wants that either. Brexit has failed. Jo and Stanley are right. Faced with these terrible options, time to let the public have the final decision and another think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 Violet1956 - 2018-11-09 6:58 PM Thanks for the link Barry. It seems like the Johnson family are representative of the deep divisions this Brexit hell has inflicted on us Not in all families ;-) .........Both mine and my wife's voted Leave B-) ......... Is just proves that in some families certain members are unable to accept the result of a democratic referendum *-) ......... I wonder if they also had a lot of temper tantrums when they were kids???? :D ....... I blame the parents (lol) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 Barryd999 - 2018-11-09 10:42 PM Violet1956 - 2018-11-09 6:58 PM Thanks for the link Barry. It seems like the Johnson family are representative of the deep divisions this Brexit hell has inflicted on us Jo and Stanley have clarified something today though thats very important. Nobody wants Chequers. Their family is united on that one. Its the only thing left on the table apart from no deal and nobody wants that either. Brexit has failed. Jo and Stanley are right. Faced with these terrible options, time to let the public have the final decision and another think. It's looking like all your Remoaner bitching has ensured we leave with No Deal B-) ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-11-10 8:59 AM Barryd999 - 2018-11-09 10:42 PM Violet1956 - 2018-11-09 6:58 PM Thanks for the link Barry. It seems like the Johnson family are representative of the deep divisions this Brexit hell has inflicted on us Jo and Stanley have clarified something today though thats very important. Nobody wants Chequers. Their family is united on that one. Its the only thing left on the table apart from no deal and nobody wants that either. Brexit has failed. Jo and Stanley are right. Faced with these terrible options, time to let the public have the final decision and another think. It's looking like all your Remoaner bitching has ensured we leave with No Deal B-) ............ That depends on whether you believe Theresa Mays bluff (and I think its a bluff) that its her way or the highway, Chequers or No deal. Nobody (except you and a few Tory headbangers) wants no deal so Parliament wont let it happen. Theresa has come up with something that everyone hates and the EU wont allow so it will have to end up with an A50 extension for either an election or another vote. She is either incredibly stupid or a genius. Jury is out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 Barryd999 - 2018-11-10 10:37 AM pelmetman - 2018-11-10 8:59 AM Barryd999 - 2018-11-09 10:42 PM Violet1956 - 2018-11-09 6:58 PM Thanks for the link Barry. It seems like the Johnson family are representative of the deep divisions this Brexit hell has inflicted on us Jo and Stanley have clarified something today though thats very important. Nobody wants Chequers. Their family is united on that one. Its the only thing left on the table apart from no deal and nobody wants that either. Brexit has failed. Jo and Stanley are right. Faced with these terrible options, time to let the public have the final decision and another think. It's looking like all your Remoaner bitching has ensured we leave with No Deal B-) ............ That depends on whether you believe Theresa Mays bluff (and I think its a bluff) that its her way or the highway, Chequers or No deal. Nobody (except you and a few Tory headbangers) wants no deal so Parliament wont let it happen. Theresa has come up with something that everyone hates and the EU wont allow so it will have to end up with an A50 extension for either an election or another vote. She is either incredibly stupid or a genius. Jury is out. I guess we'll find out in just a 139 days ;-) ........... Doesn't time fly when your having fun? :D ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-11-10 10:44 AM...………………...I guess we'll find out in just a 139 days ;-) ................ You really think it'll take that long? I reckon we'll more or less know in about two weeks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-11-10 12:58 PM pelmetman - 2018-11-10 10:44 AM...………………...I guess we'll find out in just a 139 days ;-) ................ You really think it'll take that long? I reckon we'll more or less know in about two weeks! Nah.......You Remoaners are Flagellants ;-) .......... So will carry on till the bitter end .......is worn out *-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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