Guest pelmetman Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-11-16 6:46 PM Isn't that what people are doing? They're changing their minds based on their experience of the process so far, and deciding they don't have confidence in it. You Remoaners really are desperate fellows ........if you think mere propaganda can change the mind of a nation :-| ........... Because if you are proved right......then our populace is no different to those who bowed to Hitler >:-( ........ I would like to think us Brits are not so shallow............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-11-16 5:40 PM antony1969 - 2018-11-16 12:07 PM...…………….."What could be more democratic than that? ... Respecting the first one maybe Only if your definition of democracy is that everyone has to do what you want. :-D Can't just remember the word for that type of politics, but I'm sure it will come to me. :-D I dont want everyone to do what I want Brian ... Never suggested that ... All I want is to respect a vote which the vast majority of us knew when voting what it meant ... Im more than a little stalled of the Barrys of the world chirping on about a "peoples vote" ... We had it and him and quite a few others aint been able to move on from it because the little man , the one that Bullet mocks in his thread decided his and others future ... Well the little mans vote is as good as anyone elses educated or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 antony1969 - 2018-11-16 8:44 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-11-16 5:40 PM antony1969 - 2018-11-16 12:07 PM...…………….."What could be more democratic than that? ... Respecting the first one maybe Only if your definition of democracy is that everyone has to do what you want. :-D Can't just remember the word for that type of politics, but I'm sure it will come to me. :-D I dont want everyone to do what I want Brian ... Never suggested that ... All I want is to respect a vote which the vast majority of us knew when voting what it meant ... Im more than a little stalled of the Barrys of the world chirping on about a "peoples vote" ... We had it and him and quite a few others aint been able to move on from it because the little man , the one that Bullet mocks in his thread decided his and others future ... Well the little mans vote is as good as anyone elses educated or not Its got nothing to do with how educated anyone was. I would have respected the vote if what we were seeing at the end of it was what we were promised at the beginning. lets face it, it isn't. The arguments over the last two and a half years were pretty much trying to convince people that we would reach this kind of end game and of course trying to persuade people that to think again because of the consequences that were unfolding before our eyes of their actions based on false promises. As it happens I dont like the word "peoples vote" either. Ive often referred to it as a second referendum. I think we may have also respected it more as well if it wasnt clearly apparent that there appears to have been a change of heart in the country. As we havent left yet why the hell should we leave when or if there is no majority for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Barryd999 - 2018-11-16 11:18 PM antony1969 - 2018-11-16 8:44 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-11-16 5:40 PM antony1969 - 2018-11-16 12:07 PM...…………….."What could be more democratic than that? ... Respecting the first one maybe Only if your definition of democracy is that everyone has to do what you want. :-D Can't just remember the word for that type of politics, but I'm sure it will come to me. :-D I dont want everyone to do what I want Brian ... Never suggested that ... All I want is to respect a vote which the vast majority of us knew when voting what it meant ... Im more than a little stalled of the Barrys of the world chirping on about a "peoples vote" ... We had it and him and quite a few others aint been able to move on from it because the little man , the one that Bullet mocks in his thread decided his and others future ... Well the little mans vote is as good as anyone elses educated or not Its got nothing to do with how educated anyone was. I would have respected the vote if what we were seeing at the end of it was what we were promised at the beginning. lets face it, it isn't. The arguments over the last two and a half years were pretty much trying to convince people that we would reach this kind of end game and of course trying to persuade people that to think again because of the consequences that were unfolding before our eyes of their actions based on false promises. As it happens I dont like the word "peoples vote" either. Ive often referred to it as a second referendum. I think we may have also respected it more as well if it wasnt clearly apparent that there appears to have been a change of heart in the country. As we havent left yet why the hell should we leave when or if there is no majority for it? If it has nothing to do with "how educated anyone was" how come you showed the stats on how educated Remain voters are and how uneducated Leave voters are ??? As for you respecting the vote if "what we were seeing at the end of it was what we were promised at the beginning" well you've been disappointed from day one havent ya ??? immediate UK recession , house price drop , emergency budget , financial sector upping sticks etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 antony1969 - 2018-11-17 6:41 AM Barryd999 - 2018-11-16 11:18 PM antony1969 - 2018-11-16 8:44 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-11-16 5:40 PM antony1969 - 2018-11-16 12:07 PM...…………….."What could be more democratic than that? ... Respecting the first one maybe Only if your definition of democracy is that everyone has to do what you want. :-D Can't just remember the word for that type of politics, but I'm sure it will come to me. :-D I dont want everyone to do what I want Brian ... Never suggested that ... All I want is to respect a vote which the vast majority of us knew when voting what it meant ... Im more than a little stalled of the Barrys of the world chirping on about a "peoples vote" ... We had it and him and quite a few others aint been able to move on from it because the little man , the one that Bullet mocks in his thread decided his and others future ... Well the little mans vote is as good as anyone elses educated or not Its got nothing to do with how educated anyone was. I would have respected the vote if what we were seeing at the end of it was what we were promised at the beginning. lets face it, it isn't. The arguments over the last two and a half years were pretty much trying to convince people that we would reach this kind of end game and of course trying to persuade people that to think again because of the consequences that were unfolding before our eyes of their actions based on false promises. As it happens I dont like the word "peoples vote" either. Ive often referred to it as a second referendum. I think we may have also respected it more as well if it wasnt clearly apparent that there appears to have been a change of heart in the country. As we havent left yet why the hell should we leave when or if there is no majority for it? If it has nothing to do with "how educated anyone was" how come you showed the stats on how educated Remain voters are and how uneducated Leave voters are ??? As for you respecting the vote if "what we were seeing at the end of it was what we were promised at the beginning" well you've been disappointed from day one havent ya ??? immediate UK recession , house price drop , emergency budget , financial sector upping sticks etc etc Its still got nothing to do with how clever, thick or plain stupid anyone was on either side, the facts remain that whats on offer is not what was promised. If you put a deposit on a house but the survey came back saying it had subsidence and was about to fall down would you say "No, no, I agreed to buy it so ill have to see it through" or would you want the chance to mill it over with the other half and think again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul- Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 We've already had too many years getting to grips with the false promises we were told when we joined, all its got the country is deeper in debt and more and more crime, it may have made some people better off, but its made far more poor.As for another vote, surly its now got to be the best of 3 and if independence wins again then make it the best of ten.The country voted to be independent not for a hokey cokey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowie Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 This is an agreement to stabilise conditions for the negotiation of a long term trading arrangement. It is NOT the final agreement. At the end of the next phase it will be important that we all have our chance to accept or reject. I voted to stay, but I think May has done as good a job as was possible, and if the final agreement is similar to this one we will have our cake and eat it. I fear that the final agreement will not be as good, so maybe we should have another vote. I don’t think a binary in/out option would be good enough tho’ Snowie Must go and read the two documents! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted November 17, 2018 Author Share Posted November 17, 2018 snowie - 2018-11-17 10:20 AM This is an agreement to stabilise conditions for the negotiation of a long term trading arrangement. It is NOT the final agreement. At the end of the next phase it will be important that we all have our chance to accept or reject. I voted to stay, but I think May has done as good a job as was possible, and if the final agreement is similar to this one we will have our cake and eat it. I fear that the final agreement will not be as good, so maybe we should have another vote. I don’t think a binary in/out option would be good enough tho’ Snowie Must go and read the two documents! Tbh Alan taking an 'in/out' referendum on such a complex issue was foolish from the outset and should have been thrashed out in Parliament. None of the electorate had any understanding of the raft of legalities, FTA's, single market, frictionless movement of 'just in time' components etc etc. All these things have become more widely known and reasonably understood since.....showing what a ridiculous idea a referendum on such a serious life changing issue was, albeit advisory (a small point many still overlook). Once it became clear and known the NHS was not going to get £350m a week, they couldn't stop 'johnny foreigner' coming in, and there might be a lot of austerity...people began to realise they'd made a mistake (most did at least!). Brexit has already caused untold financial damage costing the country far more than had we actually remained in the EU. Now we are told the best May could come up with was non-membership meaning loss of many rights and benefits we previously had access to and enjoyed, but EU to retain all control over swathes of regulations. So much for "taking back control" eh? Apart from a few rabid Brexiters who still want to continue with their suicide mission, the majority of them have realised not only are they not getting what they thought they were...it's now much worse. Businesses fearing the worse, a 'no deal' plunging us deeper into trillions of debt, have long left the sinking ship to move to more stable and sensible countries where they can continue. Naturally those countries are only too pleased to welcome them aboard. The years of austerity (yes i know May said it's "at an end" but she lives in a parallel universe devoid of reality) is not going to affect the Rees-Moggs et al of this world, it's going to have an immediate and catastrophic effect on the less well off. And we've already seen this week the damning words of the UN rapporteur investigating poverty in UK....how is that possible in a country ranked as the fifth wealthiest in the world? Simple....a government who could do much more to eliminate poverty, but simply chooses not to and behaved “punitively, mean-spirited, and callous”. Nobody should feel proud of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 The way out of the EU crisis ... Hand more power to the EU ... Straight from the horses mush ... Lordy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowie Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 I think that at some point, maybe soon, in response to rising nationalism, the EU may be forced to consider changing the rules on free movement, we are not the only country having issues with this. Maybe we should be the ones to suggest it, and make it part of our renegotiation of our final trade deal, or even the abandoning of Brexit. If Liam Fox gets his way standards across the board will be axed, which may be good for “free” trade, but not for most of us who buy, and bad for those who sell quality produce. I think the power needs to be exercised uniformly in these circumstances. Snowie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted November 17, 2018 Author Share Posted November 17, 2018 snowie - 2018-11-17 8:48 PM I think that at some point, maybe soon, in response to rising nationalism, the EU may be forced to consider changing the rules on free movement, we are not the only country having issues with this. Maybe we should be the ones to suggest it, and make it part of our renegotiation of our final trade deal, or even the abandoning of Brexit. If Liam Fox gets his way standards across the board will be axed, which may be good for “free” trade, but not for most of us who buy, and bad for those who sell quality produce. I think the power needs to be exercised uniformly in these circumstances. They are going to change them Alan........by making it super restrictive for British. Introduction of electronic travel authorisation so you will be 'clocked' on exit from UK meaning no more 'snowbirding' or stays over 90 days. That's easily enforceable as there is already ANPR at the ports. Also quite easy for any EU country to enforce overstay fines as those are already in place, just that they've rarely bothered in the past. Now they will. Deportation in some cases which would be recorded. What we can be certain of....whatever we attempt to go back to the EU with and ask 'can we have a bit of this or that', they will say "yes fine BUT it also applies to citizens from all the other 27 member states coming to your country". Seems fair to me. Oh.....wait a minute......that's what we had when we were still able to sit at the negotiating table and enjoyed the benefits EU funding brought! But now we will end up with no benefits and unable to negotiate! How 'brilliant' is that eh?!! What on earth possessed some folk from a tiny little country into believing they could take on the might of 27 other countries and walk away with a sweet deal? It's as insane as the Isle of Man declaring war on the US and claiming Mission Accomplished a few days later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowie Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 I have no problem with reciprocity, or 90 days, I like to spend most of the year in UK. My daughter works in Sweden, and complies with whatever regulations apply, pays tax etc, has entitlement to benefits. So it should be for long term residence, based on having a job. I’m sure whatever arrangements we finally agree, that they will have a basis of legality; but I’m less confident that they will have much imagination ! If the citizens of the EU had been consulted ( I was going to say “more often” but I don’t recall there being any EUwide consultations, ever), then maybe we would not be where we are today. Snowie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted November 17, 2018 Author Share Posted November 17, 2018 snowie - 2018-11-17 10:51 PM I have no problem with reciprocity, or 90 days, I like to spend most of the year in UK. My daughter works in Sweden, and complies with whatever regulations apply, pays tax etc, has entitlement to benefits. So it should be for long term residence, based on having a job. I’m sure whatever arrangements we finally agree, that they will have a basis of legality; but I’m less confident that they will have much imagination ! If the citizens of the EU had been consulted ( I was going to say “more often” but I don’t recall there being any EUwide consultations, ever), then maybe we would not be where we are today. Alan...i don't either regards reciprocal arrangements especially freedom of movement, the very thing *some* Brexiters voted for to stop 'johnny foreigner' coming here, yet ironically the same people want an unfettered pass into their (EU) countries! You really couldn't make it up if you tried!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-11-17 11:41 PM snowie - 2018-11-17 10:51 PM I have no problem with reciprocity, or 90 days, I like to spend most of the year in UK. My daughter works in Sweden, and complies with whatever regulations apply, pays tax etc, has entitlement to benefits. So it should be for long term residence, based on having a job. I’m sure whatever arrangements we finally agree, that they will have a basis of legality; but I’m less confident that they will have much imagination ! If the citizens of the EU had been consulted ( I was going to say “more often” but I don’t recall there being any EUwide consultations, ever), then maybe we would not be where we are today. Alan...i don't either regards reciprocal arrangements especially freedom of movement, the very thing *some* Brexiters voted for to stop 'johnny foreigner' coming here, yet ironically the same people want an unfettered pass into their (EU) countries! You really couldn't make it up if you tried!! If folk want to stay in Spain for longer than 90 days the process is quite simple ;-) ......... It's prolly the same process that allowed folk to stay there before the EU was invented :D ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowie Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-11-18 8:22 AM If folk want to stay in Spain for longer than 90 days the process is quite simple ;-) ......... It's prolly the same process that allowed folk to stay there before the EU was invented :D ........... I didn’t have a camper 40 years ago, nor did I have the imagination to consider living and working abroad. So you’ll have to enlighten me Snowie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-11-17 10:00 PM What on earth possessed some folk from a tiny little country into believing they could take on the might of 27 other countries and walk away with a sweet deal? It's as insane as the Isle of Man declaring war on the US and claiming Mission Accomplished a few days later! Most of us have no quarrel with the 27, in fact we mostly welcome them individually as neighbours and the exchange of genuine people and trade. What we don't welcome quite so much is being told what to do by a minority group of control freak EU beaurocrats purporting to represent those 27 but having their own one size fits all agenda, but only as long as the one is the exact same one size that the EU machine thinks is appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 snowie - 2018-11-18 1:04 PM pelmetman - 2018-11-18 8:22 AM If folk want to stay in Spain for longer than 90 days the process is quite simple ;-) ......... It's prolly the same process that allowed folk to stay there before the EU was invented :D ........... I didn’t have a camper 40 years ago, nor did I have the imagination to consider living and working abroad. So you’ll have to enlighten me Snowie I did live in Gib for a few years ;-) ........But technically that's not really abroad for us Brits :D ........ My wife's auntie spent a lot of time in Spain......even died out here in the 60's........apparently the paperwork was a nightmare as the family insisted on shipping her body home........ I brought my Mum & Dad back from Spain behind my seat in the camper ;-) ......... It's the only time I can recall them being in the same vehicle ......and not arguing :D .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted November 18, 2018 Author Share Posted November 18, 2018 Tracker - 2018-11-18 1:41 PM Bulletguy - 2018-11-17 10:00 PM What on earth possessed some folk from a tiny little country into believing they could take on the might of 27 other countries and walk away with a sweet deal? It's as insane as the Isle of Man declaring war on the US and claiming Mission Accomplished a few days later! Most of us have no quarrel with the 27, in fact we mostly welcome them individually as neighbours and the exchange of genuine people and trade. What we don't welcome quite so much is being told what to do by a minority group of control freak EU beaurocrats purporting to represent those 27 but having their own one size fits all agenda, but only as long as the one is the exact same one size that the EU machine thinks is appropriate. Wherever you go you will always find a 'minority group of control freaks'. We have them here in our own country flouting laws then running to the courts when they feel they've been wronged themselves. Strange that isn't it? As for any EU decisions we may not agree with we've always had the right to challenge in the ECJ though we might well lose that now with May's 'super deal'. The EU may not be picture postcard perfect Richard but one thing for sure, running away is not the answer to addressing any issues.....it's sad that it's taken two years for a Brexit supporting MP to suddenly wake up and realise we won't have a voice at the table and now gravely concerned 'our relationship with Europe is at stake'. This was just one of many points the damage Brexit would cause which was crystal clear to Remainers from the beginning but mere mention of it was met with howls of derision and laughter from Brexiters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-11-18 5:23 PM Wherever you go you will always find a 'minority group of control freaks'. We have them here in our own country flouting laws then running to the courts when they feel they've been wronged themselves. Strange that isn't it? Gina Miller springs to mind >:-) .......... But hey........You Remoaners never did have a issue with hypocrisy *-) ......... Seeing as Britain is not actually her own country ;-) .......... Strange that......isn't it? :D ............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-11-18 5:32 PM Bulletguy - 2018-11-18 5:23 PM Wherever you go you will always find a 'minority group of control freaks'. We have them here in our own country flouting laws then running to the courts when they feel they've been wronged themselves. Strange that isn't it? Gina Miller springs to mind >:-) .......... But hey........You Remoaners never did have a issue with hypocrisy *-) ......... Seeing as Britain is not actually her own country ;-) .......... Strange that......isn't it? :D ............. Lets be fair Dave ... Britain aint actually the preferred choice of home country to most of the whingers on ere ... Anti-Brits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted November 18, 2018 Author Share Posted November 18, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-11-18 5:32 PM Bulletguy - 2018-11-18 5:23 PM Wherever you go you will always find a 'minority group of control freaks'. We have them here in our own country flouting laws then running to the courts when they feel they've been wronged themselves. Strange that isn't it? Gina Miller springs to mind >:-) .......... Wasn't "British justice being heard in British courts" one of the many mantras you Brexiters liked to parrot? The first taste you got of it you screech "Enemies of the People" about our own Supreme court judges. Seeing as Britain is not actually her own country ;-) .......... Not that old chestnut......again. *-) How many times has this had to be explained to you about her rightful British citizenship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-11-18 5:43 PM pelmetman - 2018-11-18 5:32 PM Bulletguy - 2018-11-18 5:23 PM Wherever you go you will always find a 'minority group of control freaks'. We have them here in our own country flouting laws then running to the courts when they feel they've been wronged themselves. Strange that isn't it? Gina Miller springs to mind >:-) .......... Wasn't "British justice being heard in British courts" one of the many mantras you Brexiters liked to parrot? The first taste you got of it you screech "Enemies of the People" about our own Supreme court judges. Seeing as Britain is not actually her own country ;-) .......... Not that old chestnut......again. *-) How many times has this had to be explained to you about her rightful British citizenship? Yes we want British Justice .....for British folk.......served out by British judges......."Who" no longer have to look over their shoulder to see if their ruling will be overruled by a EU Muppet Judge >:-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted November 18, 2018 Author Share Posted November 18, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-11-18 5:47 PM Bulletguy - 2018-11-18 5:43 PM pelmetman - 2018-11-18 5:32 PM Bulletguy - 2018-11-18 5:23 PM Wherever you go you will always find a 'minority group of control freaks'. We have them here in our own country flouting laws then running to the courts when they feel they've been wronged themselves. Strange that isn't it? Gina Miller springs to mind >:-) .......... Wasn't "British justice being heard in British courts" one of the many mantras you Brexiters liked to parrot? The first taste you got of it you screech "Enemies of the People" about our own Supreme court judges. Seeing as Britain is not actually her own country ;-) .......... Not that old chestnut......again. *-) How many times has this had to be explained to you about her rightful British citizenship? Yes we want British Justice .....for British folk.......served out by British judges......."Who" no longer have to look over their shoulder to see if their ruling will be overruled by a EU Muppet Judge >:-) ......... It certainly didn't seem you did for the reasons i've mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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