Barryd999 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-23 1:15 PM Barryd999 - 2019-01-23 11:13 AM Can someone explain to me why an EU army which would be presumably similar to NATO just without that nutter currently in the White House calling the shots would be such a bad idea?...…………….. I'll tell you why I think it is a bad idea, Barry, to the extent that I think it is completely unworkable. In a word: command. Who gives the order to mobilise the army, against which foe? Someone needs to be authorised to do so. There are (presently) 28 member states in the EU. I simply don't foresee how they can all arrive at a common commitment to attack, when/if necessary. By the time the decision had been made, the present favourite foe's tanks would be in Lisbon! Well for those reasons it probably wont happen then but even if it did there would almost certainly be an opt out. NATO is a collection of similar countries, who makes the decisions there when its time to go to war? Anyway history shows us that when it kicks of countries such as the UK and the USA just do their own thing regardless even if its against the UN. I dunno but I am sure those that are so opposed to it have some vision of our British soldiers going around in vehicles with EU Flags on them or dressed in Gold and blue uniforms. Im not sure thats quite how it would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-23 1:37 PM...………….BTW.......That other language you speak wouldn't be Deutsch would it? ;-) ........... To quote De Gaulle, non, kein Deutsch! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-01-23 3:37 PM.................NATO is a collection of similar countries, who makes the decisions there when its time to go to war? ……….... Just tried to find out via Wiki and basically gave up! It's a bit of a cat's cradle, but it seems to be the case that each member state pledges to go to the support of any member state that is (paraphrasing) invaded. So it seems the states mobilise their troops individually under the treaty conditions, but co-ordinate their timings and movements through SHAPE, which thereafter takes on the mobilisation role of which goes where - sort of! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-01-23 3:37 PM NATO is a collection of similar countries, who makes the decisions there when its time to go to war? . . NATO was set up as a system of collective DEFENCE - if one member is attacked, all the others come to their defence. ( That's the theory ). Therefore it would be the INVADERS who decide when it's time to go to war. It seems that it has been decided in some circumstances to get involved in the defence of others as well. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 So really we are none much the wiser. As I said when it comes to fisticuffs countries dont necessarily follow the rules anyway and go off and do what they like. Truth is nobody knows what an EU Army means or whether something would ever get off the ground. You could never have a single full blown army and nothing else, it just wouldnt happen. Our current Army as it is is quite safe in or out of the EU I suspect although if Britain becomes poorer as a result of us leaving then I suspect their budgets will be cut. One things for sure though a broken EU which is what many on here would love to see is certainly a recipe for breaking the peace. Its not that long ago since we have seen war in Europe. Those that work and play together stay together an all that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-01-23 5:34 PM So really we are none much the wiser. As I said when it comes to fisticuffs countries dont necessarily follow the rules anyway and go off and do what they like. Truth is nobody knows what an EU Army means or whether something would ever get off the ground. You could never have a single full blown army and nothing else, it just wouldnt happen. Our current Army as it is is quite safe in or out of the EU I suspect although if Britain becomes poorer as a result of us leaving then I suspect their budgets will be cut. One things for sure though a broken EU which is what many on here would love to see is certainly a recipe for breaking the peace. Its not that long ago since we have seen war in Europe. Those that work and play together stay together an all that! Why is a broken EU a recipe for breaking the peace ??? ... Are you that deluded that you cant see how many countries in the EU are pi$$ed with the EU ... They are now presently members of your dying club but are now at present in the real world Barry very much miffed with the club ... Is that your peace ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 Seems those who are so bothered and wet themselves over supposed Brexit lies dont care that Sir Nick Clegg lied to us and mocked those who questioned him over the EU army ... HYPOCRITES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 antony1969 - 2019-01-23 6:17 PM Barryd999 - 2019-01-23 5:34 PM So really we are none much the wiser. As I said when it comes to fisticuffs countries dont necessarily follow the rules anyway and go off and do what they like. Truth is nobody knows what an EU Army means or whether something would ever get off the ground. You could never have a single full blown army and nothing else, it just wouldnt happen. Our current Army as it is is quite safe in or out of the EU I suspect although if Britain becomes poorer as a result of us leaving then I suspect their budgets will be cut. One things for sure though a broken EU which is what many on here would love to see is certainly a recipe for breaking the peace. Its not that long ago since we have seen war in Europe. Those that work and play together stay together an all that! Why is a broken EU a recipe for breaking the peace ??? ... Are you that deluded that you cant see how many countries in the EU are pi$$ed with the EU ... They are now presently members of your dying club but are now at present in the real world Barry very much miffed with the club ... Is that your peace ??? Hmm. You seem to think that a rise of the far right and nationalism that if it succeeds will break the EU apart will make us somehow more united and safer? You dont have to go back far in the history books to see how that always ends. Try 1939 for a kick off. Whether you like the EU or not its undeniable that us all being in it has helped keep us and Europe safer. You keep reminding us of the rise in terrorism in Europe yet you seek to break apart Europe itself where we have many cross country security agencies, policing and shared database resources, many of which we will lose if we leave the EU. The EU is not perfect for sure but I am finding it very hard to imagine the Europe you see us becoming being remotely better, or safer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-01-23 6:44 PM antony1969 - 2019-01-23 6:17 PM Barryd999 - 2019-01-23 5:34 PM So really we are none much the wiser. As I said when it comes to fisticuffs countries dont necessarily follow the rules anyway and go off and do what they like. Truth is nobody knows what an EU Army means or whether something would ever get off the ground. You could never have a single full blown army and nothing else, it just wouldnt happen. Our current Army as it is is quite safe in or out of the EU I suspect although if Britain becomes poorer as a result of us leaving then I suspect their budgets will be cut. One things for sure though a broken EU which is what many on here would love to see is certainly a recipe for breaking the peace. Its not that long ago since we have seen war in Europe. Those that work and play together stay together an all that! Why is a broken EU a recipe for breaking the peace ??? ... Are you that deluded that you cant see how many countries in the EU are pi$$ed with the EU ... They are now presently members of your dying club but are now at present in the real world Barry very much miffed with the club ... Is that your peace ??? Hmm. You seem to think that a rise of the far right and nationalism that if it succeeds will break the EU apart will make us somehow more united and safer? You dont have to go back far in the history books to see how that always ends. Try 1939 for a kick off. Whether you like the EU or not its undeniable that us all being in it has helped keep us and Europe safer. You keep reminding us of the rise in terrorism in Europe yet you seek to break apart Europe itself where we have many cross country security agencies, policing and shared database resources, many of which we will lose if we leave the EU. The EU is not perfect for sure but I am finding it very hard to imagine the Europe you see us becoming being remotely better, or safer. United ??? You talk about "united" ... What the hell is united about the EU ??? ... Greece , Italy , UK , Czech Republic , Hungary , Poland etc etc ... You think thats united ... Lordy you are deluded ... Barry for every 'expert' on European terrorism that says we'll be weaker for leaving the EU I can find one that says different and the reality is which country in the EU is going to want to make their national security weaker by dumping the UK ... Exactly none so once again its Barry tosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-22 1:05 PM Hearsay! Evidence? It's quite obviously right Brian, Rheinmetall have brought a controlling interest in BAe Systems vehicle division, Challenger II's will soon be rolling into Paris. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 antony1969 - 2019-01-23 6:17 PM...…………….. 1 Why is a broken EU a recipe for breaking the peace ??? ... 2 Are you that deluded that you cant see how many countries in the EU are pi$$ed with the EU ... They are now presently members of your dying club but are now at present in the real world Barry very much miffed with the club ... Is that your peace ??? 1 History is not exactly encouraging on European peace Antony. See here: http://tinyurl.com/ycwrehtu and look just at the 20th century. 2 The countries that don't like the present format of the EU can either leave, or work together to change it. That they want to change it doesn't mean they want to destroy it. It is the invention of a handful of far sighted politicians in the immediate post-WW2 period. Some of their ideals are dated, some irrelevant to today, but the core idea has generally worked well, and the result has been a remarkable growth in living standards for millions. I first visited France in 1957, the year of the Treaty of Rome (of which I was then blissfully unaware!) when it was a country on bicycles that seemed far behind the UK as I knew it, even to my schoolboy eyes. I first visited Spain on a package in 1964, when it was under Franco, 22 years before it joined the EU, and it was then little more advanced than 1957 France. Relative to the UK, both have made huge economic advances as a result of EEC/EU membership. It would be remarkable if a group of 28 countries all saw eye to eye all the time, and inevitable that, to arrive at positions acceptable to most, some are dissatisfied and work to reverse the decisions they dislike. But, despite the occasional dissatisfactions, it is notable that only the UK has persuaded itself to leave, and that most (if not all) of the other 27 are firm behind the way the EU is handling the Brexit negotiations. That cohesion, and the fact that through the EU they are endlessly in contact, is what ensures the peace. Break that apart and the endless contacts, and the collective EU institutions, would be prone to falling into disuse, and with that the scope for minor disagreements to result in "normal service", as in the Wiki I linked, to reassert itself. It all goes back to the old saying - keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer! It will have its moments, but providing the will is there, and they all keep talking, I think they will continue to resolve their differences by argument, will continue to prosper, and if we do leave, at some point in the future we will begin to wonder why on earth we didn't stay in and add our voice to the others, and eventually will be driven to start the process of re-joining - even on terms that far less favourable than we now have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-23 8:06 PM antony1969 - 2019-01-23 6:17 PM...…………….. 1 Why is a broken EU a recipe for breaking the peace ??? ... 2 Are you that deluded that you cant see how many countries in the EU are pi$$ed with the EU ... They are now presently members of your dying club but are now at present in the real world Barry very much miffed with the club ... Is that your peace ??? 1 History is not exactly encouraging on European peace Antony. See here: http://tinyurl.com/ycwrehtu and look just at the 20th century. 2 The countries that don't like the present format of the EU can either leave, or work together to change it. That they want to change it doesn't mean they want to destroy it. It is the invention of a handful of far sighted politicians in the immediate post-WW2 period. Some of their ideals are dated, some irrelevant to today, but the core idea has generally worked well, and the result has been a remarkable growth in living standards for millions. I first visited France in 1957, the year of the Treaty of Rome (of which I was then blissfully unaware!) when it was a country on bicycles that seemed far behind the UK as I knew it, even to my schoolboy eyes. I first visited Spain on a package in 1964, when it was under Franco, 22 years before it joined the EU, and it was then little more advanced than 1957 France. Relative to the UK, both have made huge economic advances as a result of EEC/EU membership. It would be remarkable if a group of 28 countries all saw eye to eye all the time, and inevitable that, to arrive at positions acceptable to most, some are dissatisfied and work to reverse the decisions they dislike. But, despite the occasional dissatisfactions, it is notable that only the UK has persuaded itself to leave, and that most (if not all) of the other 27 are firm behind the way the EU is handling the Brexit negotiations. That cohesion, and the fact that through the EU they are endlessly in contact, is what ensures the peace. Break that apart and the endless contacts, and the collective EU institutions, would be prone to falling into disuse, and with that the scope for minor disagreements to result in "normal service", as in the Wiki I linked, to reassert itself. It all goes back to the old saying - keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer! It will have its moments, but providing the will is there, and they all keep talking, I think they will continue to resolve their differences by argument, will continue to prosper, and if we do leave, at some point in the future we will begin to wonder why on earth we didn't stay in and add our voice to the others, and eventually will be driven to start the process of re-joining - even on terms that far less favourable than we now have. You seem to be suggesting that France and Spain have only prospered or moved on from your boyhood visits thanks to being members of the EU ??? Is that correct ??? As for European conflict in the 20th century I dont believe any of us need a history lesson on it and there again you seem to be suggesting peace has only come about because of the EU which simply just isnt true Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-23 8:06 PM It will have its moments, but providing the will is there, and they all keep talking, I think they will continue to resolve their differences by argument, will continue to prosper, and if we do leave, at some point in the future we will begin to wonder why on earth we didn't stay in and add our voice to the others, and eventually will be driven to start the process of re-joining - even on terms that far less favourable than we now have. If your Remoaner predictions are correct we'd be rejoining as a basket case economy ;-) ......... So we'd be a net receiver of EU dosh ;-) ........... Which seems to me to be far more favourable than being a net giver B-) ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 antony1969 - 2019-01-23 8:21 PM....................... 1 You seem to be suggesting that France and Spain have only prospered or moved on from your boyhood visits thanks to being members of the EU ??? Is that correct ??? 2 As for European conflict in the 20th century I dont believe any of us need a history lesson on it and there again you seem to be suggesting peace has only come about because of the EU which simply just isnt true Brian 1 No, that is not correct. My comment regarding their apparent economic state when I visited was just to illustrate that both have grown faster than the UK over the intervening period. My conclusion is that both have benefited from EEC/EU membership. Is that entirely due to their membership of the EU, as you seem to be trying to infer? Of course it is not, all European countries have grown their economies over the same time periods, and those that started from the lowest base have grown the most. But, I think it undeniable that neither would have grown and developed as quickly as they have in the absence of EEC/EU membership. It seems both agree, as neither seems the slightest inclined to leave. 2 It is impossible to say that this or that event is entirely due to a single cause when assessing the flow of international events. So again, I am not seeking to claim that peace in Europe has only been maintained as a result of the existence of the EEC/EU, although many seem to think that is the case. However, given the amount of day to day contact between the member states that EU membership involves, it seems a reasonable assumption that it helps, doesn't it? You are taking uncontentious statements, inferring from them things I did not say, and then challenging me to give you the proof for what you inferred. Why do you do that? What do you hope to prove, and who to? Your arguments are straw men, so not capable of proof. All you actually prove is a) that you have constructively exaggerated reasonable statements so that they become nonsensical, and b) that those nonsensical statements can't be proved. Was that not obvious to you before you posted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-23 10:21 PM...……..If your Remoaner predictions are correct we'd be rejoining as a basket case economy ;-) ......... So we'd be a net receiver of EU dosh ;-) ........... Which seems to me to be far more favourable than being a net giver B-) ........... Which seem to the most perverse reason I have yet read for leaving. EBBW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-24 5:04 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-23 10:21 PM...……..If your Remoaner predictions are correct we'd be rejoining as a basket case economy ;-) ......... So we'd be a net receiver of EU dosh ;-) ........... Which seems to me to be far more favourable than being a net giver B-) ........... Which seem to the most perverse reason I have yet read for leaving. EBBW? I guess you could call it payback :D ....... Because if you think about it ;-) ......... Us hoi polloi have the annoying habit of p*ssing on your Empires B-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-24 5:02 PM antony1969 - 2019-01-23 8:21 PM....................... 1 You seem to be suggesting that France and Spain have only prospered or moved on from your boyhood visits thanks to being members of the EU ??? Is that correct ??? 2 As for European conflict in the 20th century I dont believe any of us need a history lesson on it and there again you seem to be suggesting peace has only come about because of the EU which simply just isnt true Brian 1 No, that is not correct. My comment regarding their apparent economic state when I visited was just to illustrate that both have grown faster than the UK over the intervening period. My conclusion is that both have benefited from EEC/EU membership. Is that entirely due to their membership of the EU, as you seem to be trying to infer? Of course it is not, all European countries have grown their economies over the same time periods, and those that started from the lowest base have grown the most. But, I think it undeniable that neither would have grown and developed as quickly as they have in the absence of EEC/EU membership. It seems both agree, as neither seems the slightest inclined to leave. 2 It is impossible to say that this or that event is entirely due to a single cause when assessing the flow of international events. So again, I am not seeking to claim that peace in Europe has only been maintained as a result of the existence of the EEC/EU, although many seem to think that is the case. However, given the amount of day to day contact between the member states that EU membership involves, it seems a reasonable assumption that it helps, doesn't it? You are taking uncontentious statements, inferring from them things I did not say, and then challenging me to give you the proof for what you inferred. Why do you do that? What do you hope to prove, and who to? Your arguments are straw men, so not capable of proof. All you actually prove is a) that you have constructively exaggerated reasonable statements so that they become nonsensical, and b) that those nonsensical statements can't be proved. Was that not obvious to you before you posted? But Brian as an EU sympathiser its not what you didn't say but what you did say ... When talking of France and Spain you say "both have made HUGE economic advances as a result of EEC/EU membership" and that may well be so but I like you have no idea how much EU cash funds have been thrown their way so it is impossible to say if those advances you champion are through Spanish/French hard work or EU (our ) money ... You said that being in the EU and being in contact with EU countries is what "ensures the peace" then you change it in your reply to "I am not seeking to claim that peace in Europe has only been maintained as a result of the existence of the EEC/EU" ... Im a tad confused as your "ensures" is what it says on the tin only to be seemingly back-tracked on in your last post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 antony1969 - 2019-01-24 6:02 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-24 5:02 PM antony1969 - 2019-01-23 8:21 PM....................... 1 You seem to be suggesting that France and Spain have only prospered or moved on from your boyhood visits thanks to being members of the EU ??? Is that correct ??? 2 As for European conflict in the 20th century I dont believe any of us need a history lesson on it and there again you seem to be suggesting peace has only come about because of the EU which simply just isnt true Brian 1 No, that is not correct. My comment regarding their apparent economic state when I visited was just to illustrate that both have grown faster than the UK over the intervening period. My conclusion is that both have benefited from EEC/EU membership. Is that entirely due to their membership of the EU, as you seem to be trying to infer? Of course it is not, all European countries have grown their economies over the same time periods, and those that started from the lowest base have grown the most. But, I think it undeniable that neither would have grown and developed as quickly as they have in the absence of EEC/EU membership. It seems both agree, as neither seems the slightest inclined to leave. 2 It is impossible to say that this or that event is entirely due to a single cause when assessing the flow of international events. So again, I am not seeking to claim that peace in Europe has only been maintained as a result of the existence of the EEC/EU, although many seem to think that is the case. However, given the amount of day to day contact between the member states that EU membership involves, it seems a reasonable assumption that it helps, doesn't it? You are taking uncontentious statements, inferring from them things I did not say, and then challenging me to give you the proof for what you inferred. Why do you do that? What do you hope to prove, and who to? Your arguments are straw men, so not capable of proof. All you actually prove is a) that you have constructively exaggerated reasonable statements so that they become nonsensical, and b) that those nonsensical statements can't be proved. Was that not obvious to you before you posted? But Brian as an EU sympathiser its not what you didn't say but what you did say ... When talking of France and Spain you say "both have made HUGE economic advances as a result of EEC/EU membership" and that may well be so but I like you have no idea how much EU cash funds have been thrown their way so it is impossible to say if those advances you champion are through Spanish/French hard work or EU (our ) money ... You said that being in the EU and being in contact with EU countries is what "ensures the peace" then you change it in your reply to "I am not seeking to claim that peace in Europe has only been maintained as a result of the existence of the EEC/EU" ... Im a tad confused as your "ensures" is what it says on the tin only to be seemingly back-tracked on in your last post But I did not claim the economic advances that countries have made as a result of EEC/EU membership were the result of what you call "EU cash". I said it was membership that provided the benefits - because membership gives access to a large free trade area and customs union. It is the combination of access to tariff free trade, plus access to investment cash, plus the strategic investments in transport infrastructure, that have opened up the whole of the EU area to manufacturers, allowing them to increase their business. So it is the combination of the larger market and the investment inputs working together that have provided the additional economic growth. On peace, I said "That cohesion, and the fact that through the EU they are endlessly in contact, is what ensures the peace." Not that the EU ensures the peace, but that the platform it provides for continual, open, dialogue ensures the peace. I think that is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-24 5:21 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-24 5:04 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-23 10:21 PM...……..If your Remoaner predictions are correct we'd be rejoining as a basket case economy ;-) ......... So we'd be a net receiver of EU dosh ;-) ........... Which seems to me to be far more favourable than being a net giver B-) ........... Which seem to the most perverse reason I have yet read for leaving. EBBW? I guess you could call it payback :D ....... Because if you think about it ;-) ......... Us hoi polloi have the annoying habit of p*ssing on your Empires B-) ......... So you wreck the UK economy in order to be able to re-join the EU as a net beneficiary of EU funds, and that somehow registers as a win for Brexit? That is even more perverse than your original statement. As to pissing, I think you're doing it all over your shoes! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-24 6:57 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-24 5:21 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-24 5:04 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-23 10:21 PM...……..If your Remoaner predictions are correct we'd be rejoining as a basket case economy ;-) ......... So we'd be a net receiver of EU dosh ;-) ........... Which seems to me to be far more favourable than being a net giver B-) ........... Which seem to the most perverse reason I have yet read for leaving. EBBW? I guess you could call it payback :D ....... Because if you think about it ;-) ......... Us hoi polloi have the annoying habit of p*ssing on your Empires B-) ......... So you wreck the UK economy in order to be able to re-join the EU as a net beneficiary of EU funds, and that somehow registers as a win for Brexit? That is even more perverse than your original statement. As to pissing, I think you're doing it all over your shoes! :-D Actually I'm taking the p*ss Brian ;-) ......... For two reasons........we will do fine outside of the EU.......and the EU is unlikely to exist in 10 years >:-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Of course, Dave, of course! I'll take your word for it. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-25 8:47 AM Of course, Dave, of course! I'll take your word for it. :-D No need to take my word for it ;-) .......... Ask the populists who are on the rise all over the EU B-) ......... https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2018/nov/20/how-populism-emerged-as-electoral-force-in-europe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 I'm not interested in "isms" Dave, just practical solutions. Isms tend to get bogged down in their own dogma, and then come unstuck. Populism is said to be of the left or of the right, which simply means that people want solutions, but that their choice of solution depends on whether they see themselves in opposition to authority, or capital. It seems to me to offer facile, but easily understood, solutions to complex social and economic problems. Both versions have yet to be tested in real world conditions. It wouldn't be unfair to characterise Chavez or Maduro as left wing populists, as they sold their supporters the idea of jam today, but failed to ensure the continuing supply of jam. It is too early to say how the right wing versions will work out in the USA, Hungary, or Poland. If sufficient people are dissatisfied with their lot, and someone offers them hope of better, many will support that person. That much is obvious. What is far less obvious is whether that person can, actually, deliver adequately to maintain the voluntary support of a majority of the whole population. It is also to be revealed whether either will resort to bribery or repression to maintain their grip if/when it begins to slip. IMO, Mugabe was initially a right wing populist who turned to bribery and then repression to maintain his regime. There is no doubt that the established versions of politics are in difficulty, and need to change to arrest the inequalities they have allowed to develop. I don't think populism has the solutions, though it is good at highlighting the problem. It is the canary in the mine, but I don't think it can remove the firedamp. Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Populism is just another name for dissatisfaction. If enough people are ignored for long enough - they ' rise up ' - and vote for change..( even if they don't know what new problems that change may cause ). :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-25 10:39 AM I'm not interested in "isms" Dave, just practical solutions. Isms tend to get bogged down in their own dogma, and then come unstuck. Populism is said to be of the left or of the right, which simply means that people want solutions, but that their choice of solution depends on whether they see themselves in opposition to authority, or capital. It seems to me to offer facile, but easily understood, solutions to complex social and economic problems. Both versions have yet to be tested in real world conditions. It wouldn't be unfair to characterise Chavez or Maduro as left wing populists, as they sold their supporters the idea of jam today, but failed to ensure the continuing supply of jam. It is too early to say how the right wing versions will work out in the USA, Hungary, or Poland. If sufficient people are dissatisfied with their lot, and someone offers them hope of better, many will support that person. That much is obvious. What is far less obvious is whether that person can, actually, deliver adequately to maintain the voluntary support of a majority of the whole population. It is also to be revealed whether either will resort to bribery or repression to maintain their grip if/when it begins to slip. IMO, Mugabe was initially a right wing populist who turned to bribery and then repression to maintain his regime. There is no doubt that the established versions of politics are in difficulty, and need to change to arrest the inequalities they have allowed to develop. I don't think populism has the solutions, though it is good at highlighting the problem. It is the canary in the mine, but I don't think it can remove the firedamp. Time will tell. It's time you accepted the EU is a massive mistake Brian, there was never a cat in hell's chance of merging 27 countries with different economies being a success *-) .......... It's time we went back to what we were promised in the beginning.......a Common Market ;-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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