Brian Kirby Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-24 10:52 PM...........................….Seeing as the consensus is the EU will suffer as much or more than us ;-) .......... The correct answer is "Does the EU want to damage themselves by damaging us for having the temerity to leave"? >:-) ........... Fortunately 52% of the UK still has a backbone! B-) ........ So we will find out in 64 days unless you UK Remoaner backstabbers get your way *-) ......... antony1969 - 2019-01-25 8:43 AM Looks like Airbus were nudged by the Government to add to project fear no deal hysteria ... Given they've had millions in EU Euros over last few years it's a given they are guna be pro-EU crookedy club Do you two never stop to consider the consequences if you are wrong, and the EU sails off into a glorious sunset with the UK marooned as a small, impoverished, politically riven, island? I assume you have heard of a Phyrric victory? It is what you are flirting with and, like the man from Gloucester on Paul's brilliant LBC clip, you have never provided a rational or intelligent argument in support of your case. Can neither of you understand that the main reason this whole, endless, debate continues, is the absence of just one, well reasoned, argument in support of Brexit. "We won the vote" is the closest you have ever got, and it is several light-years short of a rational or intelligent argument. So how about you try? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-26 11:51 AM Do you two never stop to consider the consequences if you are wrong, and the EU sails off into a glorious sunset with the UK marooned as a small, impoverished, politically riven, island? Conversly Brian, I'm sure you do, but do other remoaners on here ever stop to consider what if they are wrong and the UK sails off into a glorious future whilst the EU continues to make itself less competitive in the real world whilst it goes on about it's business of infighting and squabbles, none of which the UK will be party to or be funding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-26 11:51 AM Do you two never stop to consider the consequences if you are wrong, and the EU sails off into a glorious sunset with the UK marooned as a small, impoverished, politically riven, island? Do you Remoaners never consider ........What happens to all Empires in the end? >:-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-26 11:51 AM I assume you have heard of a Phyrric victory? It is what you are flirting with and, like the man from Gloucester on Paul's brilliant LBC clip, you have never provided a rational or intelligent argument in support of your case. Which is exactly what you EU lovers will win by forcing us to remain in the EU :D .......... Do you actually think we will become good little Europeans all of a sudden? (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... If the EU thought we were belligerent before.........you can times that by 17 million if you thwart Brexit >:-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Speaking for myself, I'm still open to being persuaded that is what awaits us, but no Brexiter has yet come up with anything that convinces me. It is all belief, pious hope, flim-flam, smoke and mirrors, and Land of Hope and Glory thinking, to me. I just need someone (preferably several such) of substance to set out how they see it all working, in the absence of which, I am more persuaded by those, also of substance, who have set out what we have, and how it is likely to work if we leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-26 12:47 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-26 11:51 AM I assume you have heard of a Phyrric victory? It is what you are flirting with and, like the man from Gloucester on Paul's brilliant LBC clip, you have never provided a rational or intelligent argument in support of your case. Which is exactly what you EU lovers will win by forcing us to remain in the EU :D .......... Do you actually think we will become good little Europeans all of a sudden? (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... If the EU thought we were belligerent before.........you can times that by 17 million if you thwart Brexit >:-) ....... Thanks Dave, but I missed your answer. You haven't now moved to Gloucester, have you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-26 12:50 PM Speaking for myself, I'm still open to being persuaded that is what awaits us, but no Brexiter has yet come up with anything that convinces me. It is all belief, pious hope, flim-flam, smoke and mirrors, and Land of Hope and Glory thinking, to me. I just need someone (preferably several such) of substance to set out how they see it all working, in the absence of which, I am more persuaded by those, also of substance, who have set out what we have, and how it is likely to work if we leave. Give over Brian *-) ..........Your just as firmly entrenched as us Brexiteers :D ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 The point is Brian, that nobody really knows how it will pan out as nobody has ever done this before. I understand your reluctance to ditch what you see as future security in favour of the unknown but as I see it from a very non expert perspective the remain 'experts' have done a far better job in the last two years than the Brexit 'experts, who did a much better job prior to the Referendum. It seems relatively easy for so called 'experts' to try and quantify potential losses but much harder to quantify unknown gains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-26 12:52 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-26 12:47 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-26 11:51 AM I assume you have heard of a Phyrric victory? It is what you are flirting with and, like the man from Gloucester on Paul's brilliant LBC clip, you have never provided a rational or intelligent argument in support of your case. Which is exactly what you EU lovers will win by forcing us to remain in the EU :D .......... Do you actually think we will become good little Europeans all of a sudden? (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... If the EU thought we were belligerent before.........you can times that by 17 million if you thwart Brexit >:-) ....... Thanks Dave, but I missed your answer. You haven't now moved to Gloucester, have you? You forget I don't bother listening or watching Remoaner propaganda ;-) .......... You lot shot your bolt when you got all of your post vote predictions WRONG :D ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Perhaps if we all stop harping on about what has happened in the past and concern ourselves with what might happen in the future we might get a better debate? History is a thing of the past! Learn from it but don't dwell on it as it does not dictate the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Tracker - 2019-01-26 12:55 PM The point is Brian, that nobody really knows how it will pan out as nobody has ever done this before. I understand your reluctance to ditch what you see as future security in favour of the unknown but as I see it from a very non expert perspective the remain 'experts' have done a far better job in the last two years than the Brexit 'experts, who did a much better job prior to the Referendum. It seems relatively easy for so called 'experts' to try and quantify potential losses but much harder to quantify unknown gains. Actually Greenland left in 85 ;-) .......... I don't recall them clamoring to rejoin since :D ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-26 12:59 PM Actually Greenland left in 85 ;-) .......... I don't recall them clamoring to rejoin since :D ........ I had forgotten that Dave! But you cannot compare the UK economy and geography with Greenland. For a start I doubt Greenland gets many illegal immigrants landing on it's shores! Interesting article? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union#Overseas_countries_and_territories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-26 12:53 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-26 12:50 PM Speaking for myself, I'm still open to being persuaded that is what awaits us, but no Brexiter has yet come up with anything that convinces me. It is all belief, pious hope, flim-flam, smoke and mirrors, and Land of Hope and Glory thinking, to me. I just need someone (preferably several such) of substance to set out how they see it all working, in the absence of which, I am more persuaded by those, also of substance, who have set out what we have, and how it is likely to work if we leave. Give over Brian *-) ..........Your just as firmly entrenched as us Brexiteers :D ......... That is something only I can know. So give me a rational argument in favour and, providing I'm convinced, I'll prove you wrong or explain why I'm not convinced so that you can deal with my objections. Deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-26 2:35 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-26 12:53 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-26 12:50 PM Speaking for myself, I'm still open to being persuaded that is what awaits us, but no Brexiter has yet come up with anything that convinces me. It is all belief, pious hope, flim-flam, smoke and mirrors, and Land of Hope and Glory thinking, to me. I just need someone (preferably several such) of substance to set out how they see it all working, in the absence of which, I am more persuaded by those, also of substance, who have set out what we have, and how it is likely to work if we leave. Give over Brian *-) ..........Your just as firmly entrenched as us Brexiteers :D ......... That is something only I can know. So give me a rational argument in favour and, providing I'm convinced, I'll prove you wrong or explain why I'm not convinced so that you can deal with my objections. Deal? Thanks for the offer ;-) ..........But I can recognize a lost cause a mile off :D ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Tracker - 2019-01-26 12:55 PM 1 The point is Brian, that nobody really knows how it will pan out as nobody has ever done this before. 2 I understand your reluctance to ditch what you see as future security in favour of the unknown but as I see it from a very non expert perspective the remain 'experts' have done a far better job in the last two years than the Brexit 'experts, who did a much better job prior to the Referendum. 3 It seems relatively easy for so called 'experts' to try and quantify potential losses but much harder to quantify unknown gains. 1 Which, to me, is a very good reason not to do it. :-D 2 Not sure they have, really. The referendum campaign was based on appeals to the emotions, and emotionality won. It seems to me that the remainers are more inclined to rationality than emotionality, but when emotion is confronted with rational arguments, peoples' heads begin to spin, so they turn to deciding on the spin of a coin - to fate, which is another irrational response. 3 Which is almost inevitable. What stands to be lost is what one presently has, so is a known. All that has to be calculated is the extent of the loss. What might be gained is speculative, and can only be estimated by extrapolating from past experience. Where past experience is absent, one has to use present experience as a guide build the "what if" scenarios. It can be done but it is inherently more risky. So, for instance, we are advised by those with experience that trade deals take in the order of five years to negotiate. But then up pops someone with no experience of negotiating trade deals and say "nonsense, I shall be able to negotiate trade deals in only two years". Who to believe? Rationally, the person with direct experience. Emotionally, if one really wants what the trade deals promise, one will be drawn to believe the upstart, because he offers hope. Hope, of course, is the comforting emotion that masks despair; another emotion. :-) To compensate for the increased risks of proceeding on an untried path, one has to "game play" the possible outcomes on multiple iterations. I have yet to see anyone present a pro Brexit argument based on even a single iteration. That absence, to me, carries its own message - which is why I'm still unconvinced! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-26 2:39 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-26 2:35 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-26 12:53 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-26 12:50 PM Speaking for myself, I'm still open to being persuaded that is what awaits us, but no Brexiter has yet come up with anything that convinces me. It is all belief, pious hope, flim-flam, smoke and mirrors, and Land of Hope and Glory thinking, to me. I just need someone (preferably several such) of substance to set out how they see it all working, in the absence of which, I am more persuaded by those, also of substance, who have set out what we have, and how it is likely to work if we leave. Give over Brian *-) ..........Your just as firmly entrenched as us Brexiteers :D ......... That is something only I can know. So give me a rational argument in favour and, providing I'm convinced, I'll prove you wrong or explain why I'm not convinced so that you can deal with my objections. Deal? Thanks for the offer ;-) ..........But I can recognize a lost cause a mile off :D ......... So, you don't have an argument, which is what I've been saying all along. If there was one. I'm sure you'd know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Tracker - 2019-01-26 12:58 PM Perhaps if we all stop harping on about what has happened in the past and concern ourselves with what might happen in the future we might get a better debate? History is a thing of the past! Learn from it but don't dwell on it as it does not dictate the future. There is much present debate about compromise. However, to me, there is no logical compromise over Brexit. Brexit means that Britain leaves the EU. One is either in, or one is out. One cannot be a little bit out but in, or a little bit in but out. Where there might be compromise, is instead to ask if people want to be better off in future than they now are. And then to ask which version of Brexit promises the greatest chance of that being true. We don't really need to forecast the future benefits of what we have now (though we could), because that is our baseline. For each version of Brexit, how far above or below our present standard of living might we be after, say 5 and 10 years? People could then decide if they thought the tangible future benefits outweighed the more intangible future losses. We could perhaps more readily back calculate to see where we might have been had we left, say, 5 or 10 years ago, and see how that compares with the present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-26 3:22 PM We could perhaps more readily back calculate to see where we might have been had we left, say, 5 or 10 years ago, and see how that compares with the present. None too well I suspect, but I don't blame the EU for our own short termist inept governments. You might well ask look back 10 years and see how the EU has enriched our lives and that too is not a lot. Look ahead 10 years and ask how the EU will enrich our lives with it's current attitudes and that too is not a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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