Guest pelmetman Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-03-15 5:34 PM I wish you would deal with the points I made Dave. Believe it or not, I have the utmost respect for our armed forces. I just don't believe that individuals who serve in them are above the law. No you just expect them to stand there and be shot at *-) ......... It's very easy to be morally superiour from ones armchair :-| ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:47 AM Violet1956 - 2019-03-15 5:34 PM I wish you would deal with the points I made Dave. Believe it or not, I have the utmost respect for our armed forces. I just don't believe that individuals who serve in them are above the law. No you just expect them to stand there and be shot at *-) ......... It's very easy to be morally superiour from ones armchair :-| ...... An armchair from which I have read about what happened on Bloody Sunday and summaries of the findings of the Saville Inquiry. They weren't being shot at on that occasion Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 16, 2019 Author Share Posted March 16, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-03-15 8:56 PM I think you are confusing your personal idea of what is moral and what your democratcially elected government negotiated in order to end the otherwise intractable problems in Northern Ireland. The Good Friday agreement has succeeded in saving the lives of many more civilians and soldiers. Like Brexit many in NI are not happy with The Good Friday agreement and trouble still goes on mainly ignored by MSM ... A bit like other inconvenient stuff they ignore ... Like Dave says armchair critics in circumstances like this should stick to watching Eastenders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 antony1969 - 2019-03-16 9:08 AM Violet1956 - 2019-03-15 8:56 PM I think you are confusing your personal idea of what is moral and what your democratcially elected government negotiated in order to end the otherwise intractable problems in Northern Ireland. The Good Friday agreement has succeeded in saving the lives of many more civilians and soldiers. Like Brexit many in NI are not happy with The Good Friday agreement and trouble still goes on mainly ignored by MSM ... A bit like other inconvenient stuff they ignore ... Like Dave says armchair critics in circumstances like this should stick to watching Eastenders Lets look at the FACTS ON this date 20 years ago almost one million people across the north went to the polls to register their support or rejection of the Good Friday Agreement – a turnout of more than 81 per cent. In the Republic, 1.5 million people cast their vote in a corresponding referendum, though at just over 56 per cent, turnout was significantly lower. It was the first time since 1918 that people throughout Ireland had voted concurrently on the same issue, even if south of the border the ballot paper included an additional question on amending articles 2 and 3 of the constitution, which spelled out a somewhat antiquated version of Irish nationhood, while also laying claim to the six northern counties. The southern electorate overwhelmingly endorsed the Good Friday Agreement and changes to the constitution, with almost 95 per cent of voters opting for 'Yes'. North of the border, it was a closer contest - 71.1 per cent said Yes compared to a No vote of 28.9 per cent - and it followed a much more divisive campaign. Nationalism broadly supported the agreement, though the support of Sinn Féin – and the IRA – was qualified and republicans didn't actively campaign for a Yes vote. Then SDLP deputy leader Seamus Mallon was characteristically scathing of what he saw as the republican movement's fence-sitting: "You can't have one toe in the water and one toe out." Sinn Féin's erstwhile comrades in Republican Sinn Féin urged the electorate to reject the agreement, as did the 32-Sovereignty Committee. "Voting Yes on May 22 will not save us from more Drumcrees or more Harryvilles," said RSF leader Ruairí Ó Brádaigh. While the Ulster Unionist Party had played a key role in securing the agreement weeks earlier, its support came at a price. There were defections – Arlene Foster and Jeffrey Donaldson among the most high profile – and internal dissent, best manifested by MPs Willie Ross and William Thompson. Spearheading the No campaign were DUP leader Ian Paisley and his deputy Peter Robinson, alongside UK Unionist leader Bob McCartney and serial protester Cedric Wilson. Mr McCartney had been dismissive of the agreement, describing it as an "effort to buy off the IRA, not produce peace". Former UUP leader Jim Molyneaux also opposed the peace accord. During the campaign, a schism that had opened between the DUP and loyalism became more pronounced. These two wings of unionism – Christian fundamentalism and working-class, largely secular paramilitaries – were ostensibly incompatible but had been strange bedfellows for much of the Troubles. Their respective takes on the agreement, however, brought their differences to the surface and for a short while the DUP and the organisations under the Combined Loyalist Military Command banner were bitter adversaries, with the latter siding with nationalism and liberal unionism by vociferously backing the agreement. Notorious UDA killer Michael Stone, recently released from prison, publicly supported the agreement at a rally in the Ulster Hall a week before polling day. The Yes campaign also received an endorsement from relatives of victims of the Shankill bomb and the father of Paul Maxwell, the 15-year-old murdered by the IRA in Co Sligo as it targeted Lord Louis Mountbatten. However, not all victims of the previous three decades of violence were convinced by the agreement and especially that element that saw prisoners released early. Rosemary Craig, whose RUC officer husband had been badly wounded in an IRA attack, was among those campaigning for No. It was the early prisoner releases that almost dealt the Yes campaign a fatal blow, as the release of Milltown Cemetery killer Stone and the IRA's Balcombe Street Gang appeared to turn public opinion against the agreement in the days before the poll. Yes campaign director Quintin Oliver recalls that many organisations were reticent in voicing support for his campaign. "There was quite a few organisations – including the churches and some business bodies – that wouldn't commit corporately because they said many of their members would dissent," he said. In the end, the intervention of a range of international statesmen, including Bill Clinton and Nelson Mandela, alongside celebrity endorsements from the likes of Bono and Kenneth Branagh, helped buoy the pro-agreement campaign. Ultimately 400,000 more people said Yes on Friday May 22 1998 to the famously cumbersome question: "Do you support the Agreement reached at the multi-party talks on Northern Ireland and set out in Command Paper 3883?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pottypam Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 I think this all that needs to be said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 The sentiments expressed in the poem Pam provided in her link are likely to be very relevant to Soldier F’s case. The circumstances in which he decided to shoot at people might afford him a defence. There was a case in 1971 - R v Palmer in which Lord Morris expressed this rather well as follows- “If there has been an attack so that defence is reasonably necessary, it will be recognised that a person defending himself cannot weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his defensive action. If the jury thought that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought necessary that would be the most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken… “ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-03-16 8:58 AM pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:47 AM Violet1956 - 2019-03-15 5:34 PM I wish you would deal with the points I made Dave. Believe it or not, I have the utmost respect for our armed forces. I just don't believe that individuals who serve in them are above the law. No you just expect them to stand there and be shot at *-) ......... It's very easy to be morally superiour from ones armchair :-| ...... An armchair from which I have read about what happened on Bloody Sunday and summaries of the findings of the Saville Inquiry. They weren't being shot at on that occasion Dave. You know that for a fact?....... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/mcguinness-fired-the-first-shot-on-bloody-sunday-280596.html *-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-03-16 11:27 AM pelmetman - 2019-03-16 11:25 AM Violet1956 - 2019-03-16 8:58 AM pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:47 AM Violet1956 - 2019-03-15 5:34 PM I wish you would deal with the points I made Dave. Believe it or not, I have the utmost respect for our armed forces. I just don't believe that individuals who serve in them are above the law. No you just expect them to stand there and be shot at *-) ......... It's very easy to be morally superiour from ones armchair :-| ...... An armchair from which I have read about what happened on Bloody Sunday and summaries of the findings of the Saville Inquiry. They weren't being shot at on that occasion Dave. You know that for a fact?....... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/mcguinness-fired-the-first-shot-on-bloody-sunday-280596.html *-) .......... Yes and as Saville concluded NO shots were fired. Yeah......Like he would know *-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-03-16 11:25 AM Violet1956 - 2019-03-16 8:58 AM pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:47 AM Violet1956 - 2019-03-15 5:34 PM I wish you would deal with the points I made Dave. Believe it or not, I have the utmost respect for our armed forces. I just don't believe that individuals who serve in them are above the law. No you just expect them to stand there and be shot at *-) ......... It's very easy to be morally superiour from ones armchair :-| ...... An armchair from which I have read about what happened on Bloody Sunday and summaries of the findings of the Saville Inquiry. They weren't being shot at on that occasion Dave. You know that for a fact?....... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/mcguinness-fired-the-first-shot-on-bloody-sunday-280596.html *-) .......... Yes and as Saville concluded NO shots were fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 It was what the Saville Inquiry found Dave. In particular it was concluded that Martin McGuinness "did not engage in any activity that provided any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire." But the Saville Inquiry is not the last word on this issue as regards any trial of soldier F. If Soldier F knew or had been told that someone had fired a sub-machine gun then that will be relevant as regards possible defences open to him. You seem to assume that I think Soldier F is guilty of the offences he has been charged with. I have said nothing of the kind. Perhaps I should have made that much clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 They don’t need to be under fire...only think that they are under fire to react accordingly. I remember some years ago I was talking to a friend who was an armed protection officer. We were discussing the shooting of a man who had a table leg in a bag but was reported as having a gun. Armed response ordered him to put it down,he didn’t and was shot dead. The guy I was talking to said he would have done the same, he would not wait around to discover whether it was a gun or not if he felt his life was at risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-03-16 12:39 PM They don’t need to be under fire...only think that they are under fire to react accordingly. I remember some years ago I was talking to a friend who was an armed protection officer. We were discussing the shooting of a man who had a table leg in a bag but was reported as having a gun. Armed response ordered him to put it down,he didn’t and was shot dead. The guy I was talking to said he would have done the same, he would not wait around to discover whether it was a gun or not if he felt his life was at risk. You make a very good point and nothing I have said detracts from it. Who knows what soldier F was thinking and what informed his thoughts? Only he can speak to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-03-16 11:39 AM It was what the Saville Inquiry found Dave. In particular it was concluded that Martin McGuinness "did not engage in any activity that provided any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire." But the Saville Inquiry is not the last word on this issue as regards any trial of soldier F. If Soldier F knew or had been told that someone had fired a sub-machine gun then that will be relevant as regards possible defences open to him. You seem to assume that I think Soldier F is guilty of the offences he has been charged with. I have said nothing of the kind. Perhaps I should have made that much clearer. Oh because Mr McGuinness said he didn't fire the first shot *-) .......... Frankly I'd believe a squady over that dirt bag any day of the week >:-( ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-03-16 3:50 PM Violet1956 - 2019-03-16 11:39 AM It was what the Saville Inquiry found Dave. In particular it was concluded that Martin McGuinness "did not engage in any activity that provided any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire." But the Saville Inquiry is not the last word on this issue as regards any trial of soldier F. If Soldier F knew or had been told that someone had fired a sub-machine gun then that will be relevant as regards possible defences open to him. You seem to assume that I think Soldier F is guilty of the offences he has been charged with. I have said nothing of the kind. Perhaps I should have made that much clearer. Oh because Mr McGuinness said he didn't fire the first shot *-) .......... Frankly I'd believe a squady over that dirt bag any day of the week >:-( ........ An incident like Bloody Sunday was priceless to the IRA cause. They did not care who died as long as they got their publicity worldwide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 16, 2019 Author Share Posted March 16, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-03-16 9:17 AM antony1969 - 2019-03-16 9:08 AM Violet1956 - 2019-03-15 8:56 PM I think you are confusing your personal idea of what is moral and what your democratcially elected government negotiated in order to end the otherwise intractable problems in Northern Ireland. The Good Friday agreement has succeeded in saving the lives of many more civilians and soldiers. Like Brexit many in NI are not happy with The Good Friday agreement and trouble still goes on mainly ignored by MSM ... A bit like other inconvenient stuff they ignore ... Like Dave says armchair critics in circumstances like this should stick to watching Eastenders Lets look at the FACTS ON this date 20 years ago almost one million people across the north went to the polls to register their support or rejection of the Good Friday Agreement – a turnout of more than 81 per cent. In the Republic, 1.5 million people cast their vote in a corresponding referendum, though at just over 56 per cent, turnout was significantly lower. It was the first time since 1918 that people throughout Ireland had voted concurrently on the same issue, even if south of the border the ballot paper included an additional question on amending articles 2 and 3 of the constitution, which spelled out a somewhat antiquated version of Irish nationhood, while also laying claim to the six northern counties. The southern electorate overwhelmingly endorsed the Good Friday Agreement and changes to the constitution, with almost 95 per cent of voters opting for 'Yes'. North of the border, it was a closer contest - 71.1 per cent said Yes compared to a No vote of 28.9 per cent - and it followed a much more divisive campaign. Nationalism broadly supported the agreement, though the support of Sinn Féin – and the IRA – was qualified and republicans didn't actively campaign for a Yes vote. Then SDLP deputy leader Seamus Mallon was characteristically scathing of what he saw as the republican movement's fence-sitting: "You can't have one toe in the water and one toe out." Sinn Féin's erstwhile comrades in Republican Sinn Féin urged the electorate to reject the agreement, as did the 32-Sovereignty Committee. "Voting Yes on May 22 will not save us from more Drumcrees or more Harryvilles," said RSF leader Ruairí Ó Brádaigh. While the Ulster Unionist Party had played a key role in securing the agreement weeks earlier, its support came at a price. There were defections – Arlene Foster and Jeffrey Donaldson among the most high profile – and internal dissent, best manifested by MPs Willie Ross and William Thompson. Spearheading the No campaign were DUP leader Ian Paisley and his deputy Peter Robinson, alongside UK Unionist leader Bob McCartney and serial protester Cedric Wilson. Mr McCartney had been dismissive of the agreement, describing it as an "effort to buy off the IRA, not produce peace". Former UUP leader Jim Molyneaux also opposed the peace accord. During the campaign, a schism that had opened between the DUP and loyalism became more pronounced. These two wings of unionism – Christian fundamentalism and working-class, largely secular paramilitaries – were ostensibly incompatible but had been strange bedfellows for much of the Troubles. Their respective takes on the agreement, however, brought their differences to the surface and for a short while the DUP and the organisations under the Combined Loyalist Military Command banner were bitter adversaries, with the latter siding with nationalism and liberal unionism by vociferously backing the agreement. Notorious UDA killer Michael Stone, recently released from prison, publicly supported the agreement at a rally in the Ulster Hall a week before polling day. The Yes campaign also received an endorsement from relatives of victims of the Shankill bomb and the father of Paul Maxwell, the 15-year-old murdered by the IRA in Co Sligo as it targeted Lord Louis Mountbatten. However, not all victims of the previous three decades of violence were convinced by the agreement and especially that element that saw prisoners released early. Rosemary Craig, whose RUC officer husband had been badly wounded in an IRA attack, was among those campaigning for No. It was the early prisoner releases that almost dealt the Yes campaign a fatal blow, as the release of Milltown Cemetery killer Stone and the IRA's Balcombe Street Gang appeared to turn public opinion against the agreement in the days before the poll. Yes campaign director Quintin Oliver recalls that many organisations were reticent in voicing support for his campaign. "There was quite a few organisations – including the churches and some business bodies – that wouldn't commit corporately because they said many of their members would dissent," he said. In the end, the intervention of a range of international statesmen, including Bill Clinton and Nelson Mandela, alongside celebrity endorsements from the likes of Bono and Kenneth Branagh, helped buoy the pro-agreement campaign. Ultimately 400,000 more people said Yes on Friday May 22 1998 to the famously cumbersome question: "Do you support the Agreement reached at the multi-party talks on Northern Ireland and set out in Command Paper 3883?" And Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 antony1969 - 2019-03-16 5:12 PM Fast Pat - 2019-03-16 9:17 AM antony1969 - 2019-03-16 9:08 AM Violet1956 - 2019-03-15 8:56 PM I think you are confusing your personal idea of what is moral and what your democratcially elected government negotiated in order to end the otherwise intractable problems in Northern Ireland. The Good Friday agreement has succeeded in saving the lives of many more civilians and soldiers. Like Brexit many in NI are not happy with The Good Friday agreement and trouble still goes on mainly ignored by MSM ... A bit like other inconvenient stuff they ignore ... Like Dave says armchair critics in circumstances like this should stick to watching Eastenders Lets look at the FACTS ON this date 20 years ago almost one million people across the north went to the polls to register their support or rejection of the Good Friday Agreement – a turnout of more than 81 per cent. In the Republic, 1.5 million people cast their vote in a corresponding referendum, though at just over 56 per cent, turnout was significantly lower. It was the first time since 1918 that people throughout Ireland had voted concurrently on the same issue, even if south of the border the ballot paper included an additional question on amending articles 2 and 3 of the constitution, which spelled out a somewhat antiquated version of Irish nationhood, while also laying claim to the six northern counties. The southern electorate overwhelmingly endorsed the Good Friday Agreement and changes to the constitution, with almost 95 per cent of voters opting for 'Yes'. North of the border, it was a closer contest - 71.1 per cent said Yes compared to a No vote of 28.9 per cent - and it followed a much more divisive campaign. Nationalism broadly supported the agreement, though the support of Sinn Féin – and the IRA – was qualified and republicans didn't actively campaign for a Yes vote. Then SDLP deputy leader Seamus Mallon was characteristically scathing of what he saw as the republican movement's fence-sitting: "You can't have one toe in the water and one toe out." Sinn Féin's erstwhile comrades in Republican Sinn Féin urged the electorate to reject the agreement, as did the 32-Sovereignty Committee. "Voting Yes on May 22 will not save us from more Drumcrees or more Harryvilles," said RSF leader Ruairí Ó Brádaigh. While the Ulster Unionist Party had played a key role in securing the agreement weeks earlier, its support came at a price. There were defections – Arlene Foster and Jeffrey Donaldson among the most high profile – and internal dissent, best manifested by MPs Willie Ross and William Thompson. Spearheading the No campaign were DUP leader Ian Paisley and his deputy Peter Robinson, alongside UK Unionist leader Bob McCartney and serial protester Cedric Wilson. Mr McCartney had been dismissive of the agreement, describing it as an "effort to buy off the IRA, not produce peace". Former UUP leader Jim Molyneaux also opposed the peace accord. During the campaign, a schism that had opened between the DUP and loyalism became more pronounced. These two wings of unionism – Christian fundamentalism and working-class, largely secular paramilitaries – were ostensibly incompatible but had been strange bedfellows for much of the Troubles. Their respective takes on the agreement, however, brought their differences to the surface and for a short while the DUP and the organisations under the Combined Loyalist Military Command banner were bitter adversaries, with the latter siding with nationalism and liberal unionism by vociferously backing the agreement. Notorious UDA killer Michael Stone, recently released from prison, publicly supported the agreement at a rally in the Ulster Hall a week before polling day. The Yes campaign also received an endorsement from relatives of victims of the Shankill bomb and the father of Paul Maxwell, the 15-year-old murdered by the IRA in Co Sligo as it targeted Lord Louis Mountbatten. However, not all victims of the previous three decades of violence were convinced by the agreement and especially that element that saw prisoners released early. Rosemary Craig, whose RUC officer husband had been badly wounded in an IRA attack, was among those campaigning for No. It was the early prisoner releases that almost dealt the Yes campaign a fatal blow, as the release of Milltown Cemetery killer Stone and the IRA's Balcombe Street Gang appeared to turn public opinion against the agreement in the days before the poll. Yes campaign director Quintin Oliver recalls that many organisations were reticent in voicing support for his campaign. "There was quite a few organisations – including the churches and some business bodies – that wouldn't commit corporately because they said many of their members would dissent," he said. In the end, the intervention of a range of international statesmen, including Bill Clinton and Nelson Mandela, alongside celebrity endorsements from the likes of Bono and Kenneth Branagh, helped buoy the pro-agreement campaign. Ultimately 400,000 more people said Yes on Friday May 22 1998 to the famously cumbersome question: "Do you support the Agreement reached at the multi-party talks on Northern Ireland and set out in Command Paper 3883?" And He's just another "selective" terrorist apologist like Corbyn *-) ......... Gawd knows why the UK wasted my higher rate taxes on the likes of him in the 90's 8-) ....... Ungrateful B*stard >:-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 antony1969 - 2019-03-16 5:12 PM Fast Pat - 2019-03-16 9:17 AM antony1969 - 2019-03-16 9:08 AM Violet1956 - 2019-03-15 8:56 PM I think you are confusing your personal idea of what is moral and what your democratcially elected government negotiated in order to end the otherwise intractable problems in Northern Ireland. The Good Friday agreement has succeeded in saving the lives of many more civilians and soldiers. Like Brexit many in NI are not happy with The Good Friday agreement and trouble still goes on mainly ignored by MSM ... A bit like other inconvenient stuff they ignore ... Like Dave says armchair critics in circumstances like this should stick to watching Eastenders Lets look at the FACTS ON this date 20 years ago almost one million people across the north went to the polls to register their support or rejection of the Good Friday Agreement – a turnout of more than 81 per cent. In the Republic, 1.5 million people cast their vote in a corresponding referendum, though at just over 56 per cent, turnout was significantly lower. It was the first time since 1918 that people throughout Ireland had voted concurrently on the same issue, even if south of the border the ballot paper included an additional question on amending articles 2 and 3 of the constitution, which spelled out a somewhat antiquated version of Irish nationhood, while also laying claim to the six northern counties. The southern electorate overwhelmingly endorsed the Good Friday Agreement and changes to the constitution, with almost 95 per cent of voters opting for 'Yes'. North of the border, it was a closer contest - 71.1 per cent said Yes compared to a No vote of 28.9 per cent - and it followed a much more divisive campaign. Nationalism broadly supported the agreement, though the support of Sinn Féin – and the IRA – was qualified and republicans didn't actively campaign for a Yes vote. Then SDLP deputy leader Seamus Mallon was characteristically scathing of what he saw as the republican movement's fence-sitting: "You can't have one toe in the water and one toe out." Sinn Féin's erstwhile comrades in Republican Sinn Féin urged the electorate to reject the agreement, as did the 32-Sovereignty Committee. "Voting Yes on May 22 will not save us from more Drumcrees or more Harryvilles," said RSF leader Ruairí Ó Brádaigh. While the Ulster Unionist Party had played a key role in securing the agreement weeks earlier, its support came at a price. There were defections – Arlene Foster and Jeffrey Donaldson among the most high profile – and internal dissent, best manifested by MPs Willie Ross and William Thompson. Spearheading the No campaign were DUP leader Ian Paisley and his deputy Peter Robinson, alongside UK Unionist leader Bob McCartney and serial protester Cedric Wilson. Mr McCartney had been dismissive of the agreement, describing it as an "effort to buy off the IRA, not produce peace". Former UUP leader Jim Molyneaux also opposed the peace accord. During the campaign, a schism that had opened between the DUP and loyalism became more pronounced. These two wings of unionism – Christian fundamentalism and working-class, largely secular paramilitaries – were ostensibly incompatible but had been strange bedfellows for much of the Troubles. Their respective takes on the agreement, however, brought their differences to the surface and for a short while the DUP and the organisations under the Combined Loyalist Military Command banner were bitter adversaries, with the latter siding with nationalism and liberal unionism by vociferously backing the agreement. Notorious UDA killer Michael Stone, recently released from prison, publicly supported the agreement at a rally in the Ulster Hall a week before polling day. The Yes campaign also received an endorsement from relatives of victims of the Shankill bomb and the father of Paul Maxwell, the 15-year-old murdered by the IRA in Co Sligo as it targeted Lord Louis Mountbatten. However, not all victims of the previous three decades of violence were convinced by the agreement and especially that element that saw prisoners released early. Rosemary Craig, whose RUC officer husband had been badly wounded in an IRA attack, was among those campaigning for No. It was the early prisoner releases that almost dealt the Yes campaign a fatal blow, as the release of Milltown Cemetery killer Stone and the IRA's Balcombe Street Gang appeared to turn public opinion against the agreement in the days before the poll. Yes campaign director Quintin Oliver recalls that many organisations were reticent in voicing support for his campaign. "There was quite a few organisations – including the churches and some business bodies – that wouldn't commit corporately because they said many of their members would dissent," he said. In the end, the intervention of a range of international statesmen, including Bill Clinton and Nelson Mandela, alongside celebrity endorsements from the likes of Bono and Kenneth Branagh, helped buoy the pro-agreement campaign. Ultimately 400,000 more people said Yes on Friday May 22 1998 to the famously cumbersome question: "Do you support the Agreement reached at the multi-party talks on Northern Ireland and set out in Command Paper 3883?" And Antony, don't bite at his post, it's blatant plagiarism, copied and pasted from an online source. The man is obviously an IRA sympathiser (probably because of his religion). That's why the 'troubles' will never be over, they will just be worse at times and quieter at others but they will never disappear. The bigotry is endemic. At least it has largely disappeared in England (I can't say the same about parts of Scotland and I don't know about Wales). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 It goes both ways. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/01/ira-bombing-suspect-john-downing-to-be-extradited-for-belfast-trial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 17, 2019 Author Share Posted March 17, 2019 747 - 2019-03-16 11:32 PM antony1969 - 2019-03-16 5:12 PM Fast Pat - 2019-03-16 9:17 AM antony1969 - 2019-03-16 9:08 AM Violet1956 - 2019-03-15 8:56 PM I think you are confusing your personal idea of what is moral and what your democratcially elected government negotiated in order to end the otherwise intractable problems in Northern Ireland. The Good Friday agreement has succeeded in saving the lives of many more civilians and soldiers. Like Brexit many in NI are not happy with The Good Friday agreement and trouble still goes on mainly ignored by MSM ... A bit like other inconvenient stuff they ignore ... Like Dave says armchair critics in circumstances like this should stick to watching Eastenders Lets look at the FACTS ON this date 20 years ago almost one million people across the north went to the polls to register their support or rejection of the Good Friday Agreement – a turnout of more than 81 per cent. In the Republic, 1.5 million people cast their vote in a corresponding referendum, though at just over 56 per cent, turnout was significantly lower. It was the first time since 1918 that people throughout Ireland had voted concurrently on the same issue, even if south of the border the ballot paper included an additional question on amending articles 2 and 3 of the constitution, which spelled out a somewhat antiquated version of Irish nationhood, while also laying claim to the six northern counties. The southern electorate overwhelmingly endorsed the Good Friday Agreement and changes to the constitution, with almost 95 per cent of voters opting for 'Yes'. North of the border, it was a closer contest - 71.1 per cent said Yes compared to a No vote of 28.9 per cent - and it followed a much more divisive campaign. Nationalism broadly supported the agreement, though the support of Sinn Féin – and the IRA – was qualified and republicans didn't actively campaign for a Yes vote. Then SDLP deputy leader Seamus Mallon was characteristically scathing of what he saw as the republican movement's fence-sitting: "You can't have one toe in the water and one toe out." Sinn Féin's erstwhile comrades in Republican Sinn Féin urged the electorate to reject the agreement, as did the 32-Sovereignty Committee. "Voting Yes on May 22 will not save us from more Drumcrees or more Harryvilles," said RSF leader Ruairí Ó Brádaigh. While the Ulster Unionist Party had played a key role in securing the agreement weeks earlier, its support came at a price. There were defections – Arlene Foster and Jeffrey Donaldson among the most high profile – and internal dissent, best manifested by MPs Willie Ross and William Thompson. Spearheading the No campaign were DUP leader Ian Paisley and his deputy Peter Robinson, alongside UK Unionist leader Bob McCartney and serial protester Cedric Wilson. Mr McCartney had been dismissive of the agreement, describing it as an "effort to buy off the IRA, not produce peace". Former UUP leader Jim Molyneaux also opposed the peace accord. During the campaign, a schism that had opened between the DUP and loyalism became more pronounced. These two wings of unionism – Christian fundamentalism and working-class, largely secular paramilitaries – were ostensibly incompatible but had been strange bedfellows for much of the Troubles. Their respective takes on the agreement, however, brought their differences to the surface and for a short while the DUP and the organisations under the Combined Loyalist Military Command banner were bitter adversaries, with the latter siding with nationalism and liberal unionism by vociferously backing the agreement. Notorious UDA killer Michael Stone, recently released from prison, publicly supported the agreement at a rally in the Ulster Hall a week before polling day. The Yes campaign also received an endorsement from relatives of victims of the Shankill bomb and the father of Paul Maxwell, the 15-year-old murdered by the IRA in Co Sligo as it targeted Lord Louis Mountbatten. However, not all victims of the previous three decades of violence were convinced by the agreement and especially that element that saw prisoners released early. Rosemary Craig, whose RUC officer husband had been badly wounded in an IRA attack, was among those campaigning for No. It was the early prisoner releases that almost dealt the Yes campaign a fatal blow, as the release of Milltown Cemetery killer Stone and the IRA's Balcombe Street Gang appeared to turn public opinion against the agreement in the days before the poll. Yes campaign director Quintin Oliver recalls that many organisations were reticent in voicing support for his campaign. "There was quite a few organisations – including the churches and some business bodies – that wouldn't commit corporately because they said many of their members would dissent," he said. In the end, the intervention of a range of international statesmen, including Bill Clinton and Nelson Mandela, alongside celebrity endorsements from the likes of Bono and Kenneth Branagh, helped buoy the pro-agreement campaign. Ultimately 400,000 more people said Yes on Friday May 22 1998 to the famously cumbersome question: "Do you support the Agreement reached at the multi-party talks on Northern Ireland and set out in Command Paper 3883?" And Antony, don't bite at his post, it's blatant plagiarism, copied and pasted from an online source. The man is obviously an IRA sympathiser (probably because of his religion). That's why the 'troubles' will never be over, they will just be worse at times and quieter at others but they will never disappear. The bigotry is endemic. At least it has largely disappeared in England (I can't say the same about parts of Scotland and I don't know about Wales). Dont fear I didnt bite ... I've obviously got under skin just like with old bullet ... You'll note I'm now to blame for the NZ massacre in the eyes of Farty Pants ... Ye I know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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