Guest pelmetman Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-07-25 6:35 AM You go on to say "I dont think anyone cares or gives a stuff about trying to alter your opinion either Brian". Is that sentiment democratic? Isn't democracy founded on arguing a case to try to bring others to accept its value? I have repeatedly asked for that case to be made in favour of Brexit - but answer comes there none. That seems to me democratic. Isn't it? We have given up trying to make the case for Brexit to Remoaners because its pointless *-) ........ Your Remoaner blinkers have made you blind to the FACT that those "Experts" you believe have got it "Wrong" ever since the 24th June 2016 :-| ......... Your only hope now is trying to convince folk the coming "Global" recession is the fault of Brexit >:-) ...... That must be why Germany has been skirting with recession for months? ;-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 5:44 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-07-24 1:40 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 10:10 AM Jo Swinson has just said that if there was a second referendum and the country still voted to leave, that she will ignore it and still vote against leaving. Democrat? Liberal? Controlling and illiberal fascist more like. Who cares what the people want? 'I'm a Liberal, I know better than those working class oiks.' Some remainers have the fanaticism only normally displayed by the worst kind of religious nutcases. John, voting is the essence of democracy. On the information available to date, I am convinced that Brexit, in any form, would be damaging to our economy, and that a no deal Brexit would do the greatest damage. All government, and independent, analysis says this. No-one has yet produced equally convincing evidence, of equivalent weight, to the contrary. I shall therefore continue to vote against Brexit for as long as that possibility remains. That is my democratic right. It has nothing to do with class, or name calling, or what other people think - it has only to do with me, and what I think. It is my judgement, based on available information. If you want me to change my mind to your way of thinking (and to similarly change the minds of others who think as I do), how about you and those who favour leaving the EU setting out your stall, with sound information that supports your case, instead of ranting, foot stamping, and name calling? You may then persuade some to your case. That, as I understand democracy, is how it is supposed to work, is it not? In a representative democracy, an MP's first duty is to act in the best interests of their country. If an MP judges that the public will is counter to the best interests of the country, that duty does not change. In our democracy Parliament has the final say, and parliament decides on the basis of the collective votes of our 650 or so MPs. The day they are unanimous on anything will probably be the day democracy dies! In my experience the ones doing the most ranting, foot stamping and name calling are some of the most fervent Remainers on this site. Anyone who disagrees with Bulletguy and Barry999 are idiots and fools. Only they have the answers, despite there being many economists, academics and businessmen who sincerely believe that Brexit will be best for this country's long term grown and its independence. I have in the last few weeks posted links from such people who support Brexit, and this one from others, who think that we could be in for a huge bill if the Eurozone should face a financial crisis. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/07/06/britain-could-face-200bn-eu-bail-out-bill-unless-clean-brexit/ Democracy? Please, don't let her talk to me about democracy. Democracy is first and foremost about obeying the will of the people. What is the point of giving the people a choice and then telling them that their decision doesn't matter? I've just watched Boris Johnson's speech from outside Number Ten and he said that ultimately it is the people who are in charge and not the politicians. Let me ask you a question. If there was a second referendum and once more the people voted to leave what would you do? Would you still be of the opinion that a majority of MPs who don't like the verdict should still refuse to implement it? Most of the guff you post is from three years ago that I have seen. For every so called expert that you can scrabble around to rake up with a positive view of Brexit I can probably find you a hundred that say the opposite. Without doubt as far as economist views go the majority believe Brexit will be bad for the UK and not just a bit of a blip but catastrophically bad. As for your points about the will of the people and democracy as regards a second referendum well how do we know what the will of the people is? The referendum was over three years ago and it would appear that the only choice left now is to crash out with no deal. Do you seriously believe that is the will of the people? If it was then when the Brexit party campaigned in the EU elections on a no deal ticket why did they only get 30% of the vote? The entire Brexit campaign was sold on us getting a great deal but we have failed in doing so. Therefore if the only choice is to crash out with nothing what reason would you give for not allowing the public to make that final decision? Surely that would be the democratic solution would it not? A confirmatory vote on the final choice left, no deal. After all you cannot thwart the will of the people or democracy with more democracy and a public vote. I really look forward to your answer on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-07-25 8:37 AM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 5:44 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-07-24 1:40 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 10:10 AM Jo Swinson has just said that if there was a second referendum and the country still voted to leave, that she will ignore it and still vote against leaving. Democrat? Liberal? Controlling and illiberal fascist more like. Who cares what the people want? 'I'm a Liberal, I know better than those working class oiks.' Some remainers have the fanaticism only normally displayed by the worst kind of religious nutcases. John, voting is the essence of democracy. On the information available to date, I am convinced that Brexit, in any form, would be damaging to our economy, and that a no deal Brexit would do the greatest damage. All government, and independent, analysis says this. No-one has yet produced equally convincing evidence, of equivalent weight, to the contrary. I shall therefore continue to vote against Brexit for as long as that possibility remains. That is my democratic right. It has nothing to do with class, or name calling, or what other people think - it has only to do with me, and what I think. It is my judgement, based on available information. If you want me to change my mind to your way of thinking (and to similarly change the minds of others who think as I do), how about you and those who favour leaving the EU setting out your stall, with sound information that supports your case, instead of ranting, foot stamping, and name calling? You may then persuade some to your case. That, as I understand democracy, is how it is supposed to work, is it not? In a representative democracy, an MP's first duty is to act in the best interests of their country. If an MP judges that the public will is counter to the best interests of the country, that duty does not change. In our democracy Parliament has the final say, and parliament decides on the basis of the collective votes of our 650 or so MPs. The day they are unanimous on anything will probably be the day democracy dies! In my experience the ones doing the most ranting, foot stamping and name calling are some of the most fervent Remainers on this site. Anyone who disagrees with Bulletguy and Barry999 are idiots and fools. Only they have the answers, despite there being many economists, academics and businessmen who sincerely believe that Brexit will be best for this country's long term grown and its independence. I have in the last few weeks posted links from such people who support Brexit, and this one from others, who think that we could be in for a huge bill if the Eurozone should face a financial crisis. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/07/06/britain-could-face-200bn-eu-bail-out-bill-unless-clean-brexit/ Democracy? Please, don't let her talk to me about democracy. Democracy is first and foremost about obeying the will of the people. What is the point of giving the people a choice and then telling them that their decision doesn't matter? I've just watched Boris Johnson's speech from outside Number Ten and he said that ultimately it is the people who are in charge and not the politicians. Let me ask you a question. If there was a second referendum and once more the people voted to leave what would you do? Would you still be of the opinion that a majority of MPs who don't like the verdict should still refuse to implement it? Most of the guff you post is from three years ago that I have seen. For every so called expert that you can scrabble around to rake up with a positive view of Brexit I can probably find you a hundred that say the opposite. Without doubt as far as economist views go the majority believe Brexit will be bad for the UK and not just a bit of a blip but catastrophically bad. As for your points about the will of the people and democracy as regards a second referendum well how do we know what the will of the people is? The referendum was over three years ago and it would appear that the only choice left now is to crash out with no deal. Do you seriously believe that is the will of the people? If it was then when the Brexit party campaigned in the EU elections on a no deal ticket why did they only get 30% of the vote? The entire Brexit campaign was sold on us getting a great deal but we have failed in doing so. Therefore if the only choice is to crash out with nothing what reason would you give for not allowing the public to make that final decision? Surely that would be the democratic solution would it not? A confirmatory vote on the final choice left, no deal. After all you cannot thwart the will of the people or democracy with more democracy and a public vote. I really look forward to your answer on that one. Why should you get another vote before you know how Brexit will workout? :-| ............ I've had to wait over 40 years just to get a chance to vote *-) ....... Plus I have over 40 years experience of watching the EU morph into the Fourth Reich 8-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunsterJohn Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-07-25 9:37 AM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 5:44 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-07-24 1:40 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 10:10 AM Jo Swinson has just said that if there was a second referendum and the country still voted to leave, that she will ignore it and still vote against leaving. Democrat? Liberal? Controlling and illiberal fascist more like. Who cares what the people want? 'I'm a Liberal, I know better than those working class oiks.' Some remainers have the fanaticism only normally displayed by the worst kind of religious nutcases. John, voting is the essence of democracy. On the information available to date, I am convinced that Brexit, in any form, would be damaging to our economy, and that a no deal Brexit would do the greatest damage. All government, and independent, analysis says this. No-one has yet produced equally convincing evidence, of equivalent weight, to the contrary. I shall therefore continue to vote against Brexit for as long as that possibility remains. That is my democratic right. It has nothing to do with class, or name calling, or what other people think - it has only to do with me, and what I think. It is my judgement, based on available information. If you want me to change my mind to your way of thinking (and to similarly change the minds of others who think as I do), how about you and those who favour leaving the EU setting out your stall, with sound information that supports your case, instead of ranting, foot stamping, and name calling? You may then persuade some to your case. That, as I understand democracy, is how it is supposed to work, is it not? In a representative democracy, an MP's first duty is to act in the best interests of their country. If an MP judges that the public will is counter to the best interests of the country, that duty does not change. In our democracy Parliament has the final say, and parliament decides on the basis of the collective votes of our 650 or so MPs. The day they are unanimous on anything will probably be the day democracy dies! In my experience the ones doing the most ranting, foot stamping and name calling are some of the most fervent Remainers on this site. Anyone who disagrees with Bulletguy and Barry999 are idiots and fools. Only they have the answers, despite there being many economists, academics and businessmen who sincerely believe that Brexit will be best for this country's long term grown and its independence. I have in the last few weeks posted links from such people who support Brexit, and this one from others, who think that we could be in for a huge bill if the Eurozone should face a financial crisis. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/07/06/britain-could-face-200bn-eu-bail-out-bill-unless-clean-brexit/ Democracy? Please, don't let her talk to me about democracy. Democracy is first and foremost about obeying the will of the people. What is the point of giving the people a choice and then telling them that their decision doesn't matter? I've just watched Boris Johnson's speech from outside Number Ten and he said that ultimately it is the people who are in charge and not the politicians. Let me ask you a question. If there was a second referendum and once more the people voted to leave what would you do? Would you still be of the opinion that a majority of MPs who don't like the verdict should still refuse to implement it? Most of the guff you post is from three years ago that I have seen. For every so called expert that you can scrabble around to rake up with a positive view of Brexit I can probably find you a hundred that say the opposite. Without doubt as far as economist views go the majority believe Brexit will be bad for the UK and not just a bit of a blip but catastrophically bad. As for your points about the will of the people and democracy as regards a second referendum well how do we know what the will of the people is? The referendum was over three years ago and it would appear that the only choice left now is to crash out with no deal. Do you seriously believe that is the will of the people? If it was then when the Brexit party campaigned in the EU elections on a no deal ticket why did they only get 30% of the vote? The entire Brexit campaign was sold on us getting a great deal but we have failed in doing so. Therefore if the only choice is to crash out with nothing what reason would you give for not allowing the public to make that final decision? Surely that would be the democratic solution would it not? A confirmatory vote on the final choice left, no deal. After all you cannot thwart the will of the people or democracy with more democracy and a public vote. I really look forward to your answer on that one. Three years old? Here's a link to the dreadful affect that the prospect of Britain leaving the UK is having! https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-trade-and-investment-in-2018-behind-the-numbers You've probably not twigged it but my main complaint in this thread is about the leader of the LibDems who has called for a second referendum and in the next breath said that she'll ignore the result if it doesn't go her way. Do you think that is democratic and moral? If she was a Tory I can just imagine the foaming at the mouth amongst you and your mates! Let me ask you. If there was second referendum and there was still a small majority to leave would you then honour the result? We all know that there's no chance of that, you're so zealous, so indoctrinated and so sure of your own righteousness that you'll never accept any vote that doesn't fit your own blinkered view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted July 25, 2019 Author Share Posted July 25, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-07-25 6:35 AM Birdbrain - 2019-07-24 5:50 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-07-24 12:40 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 10:10 AM Jo Swinson has just said that if there was a second referendum and the country still voted to leave, that she will ignore it and still vote against leaving. Democrat? Liberal? Controlling and illiberal fascist more like. Who cares what the people want? 'I'm a Liberal, I know better than those working class oiks.' Some remainers have the fanaticism only normally displayed by the worst kind of religious nutcases. John, voting is the essence of democracy. On the information available to date, I am convinced that Brexit, in any form, would be damaging to our economy, and that a no deal Brexit would do the greatest damage. All government, and independent, analysis says this. No-one has yet produced equally convincing evidence, of equivalent weight, to the contrary. I shall therefore continue to vote against Brexit for as long as that possibility remains. That is my democratic right. It has nothing to do with class, or name calling, or what other people think - it has only to do with me, and what I think. It is my judgement, based on available information. If you want me to change my mind to your way of thinking (and to similarly change the minds of others who think as I do), how about you and those who favour leaving the EU setting out your stall, with sound information that supports your case, instead of ranting, foot stamping, and name calling? You may then persuade some to your case. That, as I understand democracy, is how it is supposed to work, is it not? In a representative democracy, an MP's first duty is to act in the best interests of their country. If an MP judges that the public will is counter to the best interests of the country, that duty does not change. In our democracy Parliament has the final say, and parliament decides on the basis of the collective votes of our 650 or so MPs. The day they are unanimous on anything will probably be the day democracy dies! Thats not democracy , thats your opinion thats all and to be fair I dont think anyone cares or gives a stuff about trying to alter your opinion either Brian ... The thread started on how our now opposition party are going against not one vote but two if it went the way they dont like it ... How on earth is that MPs serving the majority ??? You say "Thats not democracy", but you don't say what "that" is. Which part of my point are you arguing with? What, is not democracy? You go on to say "I dont think anyone cares or gives a stuff about trying to alter your opinion either Brian". Is that sentiment democratic? Isn't democracy founded on arguing a case to try to bring others to accept its value? I have repeatedly asked for that case to be made in favour of Brexit - but answer comes there none. That seems to me democratic. Isn't it? Do you agree with the new Lib-Dems view on democracy ??? ... Which is basically ignoring democracy via the ballot box that you champion no matter how many times Leave wins ... As for the experts , c'mon Brian we heard civil servant experts , B of E experts , our political experts , Barry etc etc telling us all how horrendous life was going to be immediately after a Leave win ??? ... We had experts tell us we were sunk if we didn't join the Euro ??? ... I dont care for experts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 5:44 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-07-24 1:40 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 10:10 AM Jo Swinson has just said that if there was a second referendum and the country still voted to leave, that she will ignore it and still vote against leaving. Democrat? Liberal? Controlling and illiberal fascist more like. Who cares what the people want? 'I'm a Liberal, I know better than those working class oiks.' Some remainers have the fanaticism only normally displayed by the worst kind of religious nutcases. John, voting is the essence of democracy. On the information available to date, I am convinced that Brexit, in any form, would be damaging to our economy, and that a no deal Brexit would do the greatest damage. All government, and independent, analysis says this. No-one has yet produced equally convincing evidence, of equivalent weight, to the contrary. I shall therefore continue to vote against Brexit for as long as that possibility remains. That is my democratic right. It has nothing to do with class, or name calling, or what other people think - it has only to do with me, and what I think. It is my judgement, based on available information. If you want me to change my mind to your way of thinking (and to similarly change the minds of others who think as I do), how about you and those who favour leaving the EU setting out your stall, with sound information that supports your case, instead of ranting, foot stamping, and name calling? You may then persuade some to your case. That, as I understand democracy, is how it is supposed to work, is it not? In a representative democracy, an MP's first duty is to act in the best interests of their country. If an MP judges that the public will is counter to the best interests of the country, that duty does not change. In our democracy Parliament has the final say, and parliament decides on the basis of the collective votes of our 650 or so MPs. The day they are unanimous on anything will probably be the day democracy dies! ...............…despite there being many economists, academics and businessmen who sincerely believe that Brexit will be best for this country's long term grown and its independence.. I have in the last few weeks posted links from such people who support Brexit, and this one from others, who think that we could be in for a huge bill if the Eurozone should face a financial crisis. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/07/06/britain-could-face-200bn-eu-bail-out-bill-unless-clean-brexit/ A strange Telegraph article reporting on a rather odd (IMO) grouping. So I searched back through the past month of your posts, and couldn't find links to "economists, academics and businessmen" who "sincerely believe that Brexit will be best for this country's long term grown and its independence". Can you help me out with those links? What I'm after is not their sincere beliefs, but their substantiated reasoning. …………………………...So as I said, please believe your sincerely held views on Brexit but please, let me, and many others, believe ours. I don't deny you that right, I just argue that you are wrong. But to get to the crux of my post. Jo Swinton is a hypocrite. She is campaigning for a second referendum but has also said that if it doesn't go her way that she will ignore it. Democracy? Please, don't let her talk to me about democracy. Democracy is first and foremost about obeying the will of the people. What is the point of giving the people a choice and then telling them that their decision doesn't matter? I've just watched Boris Johnson's speech from outside Number Ten and he said that ultimately it is the people who are in charge and not the politicians. Obeying the will of the people has too often been the phrase. The referendum was not organised to reveal the will of the people. The claim is too grand. The result was roughly 52 - 48 of the votes cast in favour of leave, on a turnout of 72%. That leaves nearly 13 million whose opinions are unknown, out of an electorate of 46.5 million. We are left with a simplistic vote against membership, with no knowledge of what leave voters actually wanted instead - leaving the door open to everyone to interpret their silence to mean whatever they, and not "the people", choose. No-one really knows what "the people" wanted, because no one has yet asked them. As far as Swinson and many Remainers are concerned the people are only in charge if they vote the way that they want them too. Let me ask you a question. If there was a second referendum and once more the people voted to leave what would you do? Would you still be of the opinion that a majority of MPs who don't like the verdict should still refuse to implement it? I think this misunderstands the position of many remainers, for whom it is not a case of "what they want", but of what they think is in the best overall interests of the UK - their country - however it voted. I won't presume to speak for all, but those I know share the conviction I hold, that any Brexit will damage our economy, and that the "harder" the Brexit the greater the damage. There is a wider point. If the Brexiters are wrong, and Brexit does prove damaging to the economy, it will not just be the electorate who suffer the consequences, it really will be "the people". How many Brexiters then will cheerfully console themselves that the impact on their lives has been worth it? I see a far greater threat to our democracy then, than any that might follow if Brexit were reversed. Were Brexit to be reversed who would actually lose? The Brexiters would of course be angry and thwarted, but materially worse off? OTOH, if Brexit takes place, and the economy suffers - as widely forecast by the majority of economists, plus not a few business leaders - large numbers of people stand to suffer actual. material, loss. Will those who voted Brexit then be so sanguine, or will they turn on those who encouraged them to dismiss the warnings as "project fear"? To answer your question, it will depend on several things. First, on the options that are put to the people. It seems unlikely in the extreme that the, IMO, asinine question that was asked in 2016 would be repeated, for reasons that must by now be clear. Second, on the actual majority that results. To give a clear response on an issue of such significance I think something approaching the Swiss double majority would be needed, but as that seems to fit ill with our version of democracy, I would accept a leave vote of 23,250,622 (half the electorate plus 1) either way as truly representing the will of the people, and anything less as being advisory. You asked above "What is the point of giving the people a choice and then telling them that their decision doesn't matter". I don't know what was the point of asking the people, but it seemed to me to have a lot to do with one political party fearing, pre referendum, that it was losing votes to another. That fear was ultimately of losing to a third party which, had it happened, and however much one may despise that party in its present guise, would at least have been a democratic outcome. The referendum was supposed to eliminate that risk, but it was hardly, IMO, a democratic move. So, just maybe, it might be better now to own up to the miscalculations, apologise, admit that the whole thing has been a disaster, revoke Aricle 50, and solemnly undertake to fix the underlying, home-grown, causes of the dissatisfaction that gave rise to the (narrow) leave majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted July 25, 2019 Author Share Posted July 25, 2019 Poor darling ... ... She rages at Boris and POTUS trump but does not bat an eyelid when ignoring UK democracy with her Lib-Dem Bolox to Brexit guff ... God help us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 FunsterJohn - 2019-07-25 9:08 AM Barryd999 - 2019-07-25 9:37 AM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 5:44 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-07-24 1:40 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 10:10 AM Jo Swinson has just said that if there was a second referendum and the country still voted to leave, that she will ignore it and still vote against leaving. Democrat? Liberal? Controlling and illiberal fascist more like. Who cares what the people want? 'I'm a Liberal, I know better than those working class oiks.' Some remainers have the fanaticism only normally displayed by the worst kind of religious nutcases. John, voting is the essence of democracy. On the information available to date, I am convinced that Brexit, in any form, would be damaging to our economy, and that a no deal Brexit would do the greatest damage. All government, and independent, analysis says this. No-one has yet produced equally convincing evidence, of equivalent weight, to the contrary. I shall therefore continue to vote against Brexit for as long as that possibility remains. That is my democratic right. It has nothing to do with class, or name calling, or what other people think - it has only to do with me, and what I think. It is my judgement, based on available information. If you want me to change my mind to your way of thinking (and to similarly change the minds of others who think as I do), how about you and those who favour leaving the EU setting out your stall, with sound information that supports your case, instead of ranting, foot stamping, and name calling? You may then persuade some to your case. That, as I understand democracy, is how it is supposed to work, is it not? In a representative democracy, an MP's first duty is to act in the best interests of their country. If an MP judges that the public will is counter to the best interests of the country, that duty does not change. In our democracy Parliament has the final say, and parliament decides on the basis of the collective votes of our 650 or so MPs. The day they are unanimous on anything will probably be the day democracy dies! In my experience the ones doing the most ranting, foot stamping and name calling are some of the most fervent Remainers on this site. Anyone who disagrees with Bulletguy and Barry999 are idiots and fools. Only they have the answers, despite there being many economists, academics and businessmen who sincerely believe that Brexit will be best for this country's long term grown and its independence. I have in the last few weeks posted links from such people who support Brexit, and this one from others, who think that we could be in for a huge bill if the Eurozone should face a financial crisis. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/07/06/britain-could-face-200bn-eu-bail-out-bill-unless-clean-brexit/ Democracy? Please, don't let her talk to me about democracy. Democracy is first and foremost about obeying the will of the people. What is the point of giving the people a choice and then telling them that their decision doesn't matter? I've just watched Boris Johnson's speech from outside Number Ten and he said that ultimately it is the people who are in charge and not the politicians. Let me ask you a question. If there was a second referendum and once more the people voted to leave what would you do? Would you still be of the opinion that a majority of MPs who don't like the verdict should still refuse to implement it? Most of the guff you post is from three years ago that I have seen. For every so called expert that you can scrabble around to rake up with a positive view of Brexit I can probably find you a hundred that say the opposite. Without doubt as far as economist views go the majority believe Brexit will be bad for the UK and not just a bit of a blip but catastrophically bad. As for your points about the will of the people and democracy as regards a second referendum well how do we know what the will of the people is? The referendum was over three years ago and it would appear that the only choice left now is to crash out with no deal. Do you seriously believe that is the will of the people? If it was then when the Brexit party campaigned in the EU elections on a no deal ticket why did they only get 30% of the vote? The entire Brexit campaign was sold on us getting a great deal but we have failed in doing so. Therefore if the only choice is to crash out with nothing what reason would you give for not allowing the public to make that final decision? Surely that would be the democratic solution would it not? A confirmatory vote on the final choice left, no deal. After all you cannot thwart the will of the people or democracy with more democracy and a public vote. I really look forward to your answer on that one. Three years old? Here's a link to the dreadful affect that the prospect of Britain leaving the UK is having! https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-trade-and-investment-in-2018-behind-the-numbers You've probably not twigged it but my main complaint in this thread is about the leader of the LibDems who has called for a second referendum and in the next breath said that she'll ignore the result if it doesn't go her way. Do you think that is democratic and moral? If she was a Tory I can just imagine the foaming at the mouth amongst you and your mates! Let me ask you. If there was second referendum and there was still a small majority to leave would you then honour the result? We all know that there's no chance of that, you're so zealous, so indoctrinated and so sure of your own righteousness that you'll never accept any vote that doesn't fit your own blinkered view. Actually I would respect the result of a confirmatory referendum on either No deal vs remain or whatever s**te deal Boris puts together vs remain. That was the entire point of the peoples vote. It was never about whinging or being soar losers, least not for me. It was more about the fact that none of us remainers believed what was promised in 2016 and that we knew we would arrive at this moment where we either had a choice if a terrible deal or crashing out with nothing. All I ever wanted was for people to see that for themselves and have a chance to confirm at the end of it all if it really was what they wanted. I would still like to see that happen but in either of those scenarios in a confirmatory vote it would be impossible for someone like me to then call "not fair" or demand another re-run. To be honest now I am not that fussed either way. If it goes back to the people for no deal vs remain then fair enough but if Boris takes us over the cliff then thats also fair enough, at least that way with his pro Brexit cabinet holding the reigns the only people accountable for what happens next are the Brexiteers. You and they brought us here and its you and them that will be taking us over the edge and of course the ones solely held accountable for the outcome. I reckon we will be back in within five years if that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-07-25 5:22 PM Actually I would respect the result of a confirmatory referendum Well seeing as the Libdems OhnoJo and the Greens have already said they'd ignore a Leave win there's no point is there? *-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-07-25 5:22 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-25 9:08 AM Barryd999 - 2019-07-25 9:37 AM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 5:44 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-07-24 1:40 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 10:10 AM Jo Swinson has just said that if there was a second referendum and the country still voted to leave, that she will ignore it and still vote against leaving. Democrat? Liberal? Controlling and illiberal fascist more like. Who cares what the people want? 'I'm a Liberal, I know better than those working class oiks.' Some remainers have the fanaticism only normally displayed by the worst kind of religious nutcases. John, voting is the essence of democracy. On the information available to date, I am convinced that Brexit, in any form, would be damaging to our economy, and that a no deal Brexit would do the greatest damage. All government, and independent, analysis says this. No-one has yet produced equally convincing evidence, of equivalent weight, to the contrary. I shall therefore continue to vote against Brexit for as long as that possibility remains. That is my democratic right. It has nothing to do with class, or name calling, or what other people think - it has only to do with me, and what I think. It is my judgement, based on available information. If you want me to change my mind to your way of thinking (and to similarly change the minds of others who think as I do), how about you and those who favour leaving the EU setting out your stall, with sound information that supports your case, instead of ranting, foot stamping, and name calling? You may then persuade some to your case. That, as I understand democracy, is how it is supposed to work, is it not? In a representative democracy, an MP's first duty is to act in the best interests of their country. If an MP judges that the public will is counter to the best interests of the country, that duty does not change. In our democracy Parliament has the final say, and parliament decides on the basis of the collective votes of our 650 or so MPs. The day they are unanimous on anything will probably be the day democracy dies! In my experience the ones doing the most ranting, foot stamping and name calling are some of the most fervent Remainers on this site. Anyone who disagrees with Bulletguy and Barry999 are idiots and fools. Only they have the answers, despite there being many economists, academics and businessmen who sincerely believe that Brexit will be best for this country's long term grown and its independence. I have in the last few weeks posted links from such people who support Brexit, and this one from others, who think that we could be in for a huge bill if the Eurozone should face a financial crisis. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/07/06/britain-could-face-200bn-eu-bail-out-bill-unless-clean-brexit/ Democracy? Please, don't let her talk to me about democracy. Democracy is first and foremost about obeying the will of the people. What is the point of giving the people a choice and then telling them that their decision doesn't matter? I've just watched Boris Johnson's speech from outside Number Ten and he said that ultimately it is the people who are in charge and not the politicians. Let me ask you a question. If there was a second referendum and once more the people voted to leave what would you do? Would you still be of the opinion that a majority of MPs who don't like the verdict should still refuse to implement it? Most of the guff you post is from three years ago that I have seen. For every so called expert that you can scrabble around to rake up with a positive view of Brexit I can probably find you a hundred that say the opposite. Without doubt as far as economist views go the majority believe Brexit will be bad for the UK and not just a bit of a blip but catastrophically bad. As for your points about the will of the people and democracy as regards a second referendum well how do we know what the will of the people is? The referendum was over three years ago and it would appear that the only choice left now is to crash out with no deal. Do you seriously believe that is the will of the people? If it was then when the Brexit party campaigned in the EU elections on a no deal ticket why did they only get 30% of the vote? The entire Brexit campaign was sold on us getting a great deal but we have failed in doing so. Therefore if the only choice is to crash out with nothing what reason would you give for not allowing the public to make that final decision? Surely that would be the democratic solution would it not? A confirmatory vote on the final choice left, no deal. After all you cannot thwart the will of the people or democracy with more democracy and a public vote. I really look forward to your answer on that one. Three years old? Here's a link to the dreadful affect that the prospect of Britain leaving the UK is having! https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-trade-and-investment-in-2018-behind-the-numbers You've probably not twigged it but my main complaint in this thread is about the leader of the LibDems who has called for a second referendum and in the next breath said that she'll ignore the result if it doesn't go her way. Do you think that is democratic and moral? If she was a Tory I can just imagine the foaming at the mouth amongst you and your mates! Let me ask you. If there was second referendum and there was still a small majority to leave would you then honour the result? We all know that there's no chance of that, you're so zealous, so indoctrinated and so sure of your own righteousness that you'll never accept any vote that doesn't fit your own blinkered view. To be honest now I am not that fussed either way. If it goes back to the people for no deal vs remain then fair enough but if Boris takes us over the cliff then thats also fair enough, at least that way with his pro Brexit cabinet holding the reigns the only people accountable for what happens next are the Brexiteers. You and they brought us here and its you and them that will be taking us over the edge and of course the ones solely held accountable for the outcome. I reckon we will be back in within five years if that happens. They won't take responsibility for their actions now, constantly blaming the EU for their woes, even when shown not to be the case (remember the Brexit White paper?), so what makes you think they will take responsibility once over the cliff edge? They will find someone else to blame.....anyone but themselves. They don't want the responsibility of accountability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunsterJohn Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 It turns out that the Communist Party of GB is enthusiastic about Brexit and sees the EU as disaster for unions and for the UK. Thank you Bulletguy for the link. This must be embarrassing for the Lefties on here! https://www.cpbml.org.uk/leave It's a fascinating read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted July 26, 2019 Author Share Posted July 26, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-07-25 10:04 PM Barryd999 - 2019-07-25 5:22 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-25 9:08 AM Barryd999 - 2019-07-25 9:37 AM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 5:44 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-07-24 1:40 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 10:10 AM Jo Swinson has just said that if there was a second referendum and the country still voted to leave, that she will ignore it and still vote against leaving. Democrat? Liberal? Controlling and illiberal fascist more like. Who cares what the people want? 'I'm a Liberal, I know better than those working class oiks.' Some remainers have the fanaticism only normally displayed by the worst kind of religious nutcases. John, voting is the essence of democracy. On the information available to date, I am convinced that Brexit, in any form, would be damaging to our economy, and that a no deal Brexit would do the greatest damage. All government, and independent, analysis says this. No-one has yet produced equally convincing evidence, of equivalent weight, to the contrary. I shall therefore continue to vote against Brexit for as long as that possibility remains. That is my democratic right. It has nothing to do with class, or name calling, or what other people think - it has only to do with me, and what I think. It is my judgement, based on available information. If you want me to change my mind to your way of thinking (and to similarly change the minds of others who think as I do), how about you and those who favour leaving the EU setting out your stall, with sound information that supports your case, instead of ranting, foot stamping, and name calling? You may then persuade some to your case. That, as I understand democracy, is how it is supposed to work, is it not? In a representative democracy, an MP's first duty is to act in the best interests of their country. If an MP judges that the public will is counter to the best interests of the country, that duty does not change. In our democracy Parliament has the final say, and parliament decides on the basis of the collective votes of our 650 or so MPs. The day they are unanimous on anything will probably be the day democracy dies! In my experience the ones doing the most ranting, foot stamping and name calling are some of the most fervent Remainers on this site. Anyone who disagrees with Bulletguy and Barry999 are idiots and fools. Only they have the answers, despite there being many economists, academics and businessmen who sincerely believe that Brexit will be best for this country's long term grown and its independence. I have in the last few weeks posted links from such people who support Brexit, and this one from others, who think that we could be in for a huge bill if the Eurozone should face a financial crisis. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/07/06/britain-could-face-200bn-eu-bail-out-bill-unless-clean-brexit/ Democracy? Please, don't let her talk to me about democracy. Democracy is first and foremost about obeying the will of the people. What is the point of giving the people a choice and then telling them that their decision doesn't matter? I've just watched Boris Johnson's speech from outside Number Ten and he said that ultimately it is the people who are in charge and not the politicians. Let me ask you a question. If there was a second referendum and once more the people voted to leave what would you do? Would you still be of the opinion that a majority of MPs who don't like the verdict should still refuse to implement it? Most of the guff you post is from three years ago that I have seen. For every so called expert that you can scrabble around to rake up with a positive view of Brexit I can probably find you a hundred that say the opposite. Without doubt as far as economist views go the majority believe Brexit will be bad for the UK and not just a bit of a blip but catastrophically bad. As for your points about the will of the people and democracy as regards a second referendum well how do we know what the will of the people is? The referendum was over three years ago and it would appear that the only choice left now is to crash out with no deal. Do you seriously believe that is the will of the people? If it was then when the Brexit party campaigned in the EU elections on a no deal ticket why did they only get 30% of the vote? The entire Brexit campaign was sold on us getting a great deal but we have failed in doing so. Therefore if the only choice is to crash out with nothing what reason would you give for not allowing the public to make that final decision? Surely that would be the democratic solution would it not? A confirmatory vote on the final choice left, no deal. After all you cannot thwart the will of the people or democracy with more democracy and a public vote. I really look forward to your answer on that one. Three years old? Here's a link to the dreadful affect that the prospect of Britain leaving the UK is having! https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-trade-and-investment-in-2018-behind-the-numbers You've probably not twigged it but my main complaint in this thread is about the leader of the LibDems who has called for a second referendum and in the next breath said that she'll ignore the result if it doesn't go her way. Do you think that is democratic and moral? If she was a Tory I can just imagine the foaming at the mouth amongst you and your mates! Let me ask you. If there was second referendum and there was still a small majority to leave would you then honour the result? We all know that there's no chance of that, you're so zealous, so indoctrinated and so sure of your own righteousness that you'll never accept any vote that doesn't fit your own blinkered view. To be honest now I am not that fussed either way. If it goes back to the people for no deal vs remain then fair enough but if Boris takes us over the cliff then thats also fair enough, at least that way with his pro Brexit cabinet holding the reigns the only people accountable for what happens next are the Brexiteers. You and they brought us here and its you and them that will be taking us over the edge and of course the ones solely held accountable for the outcome. I reckon we will be back in within five years if that happens. They won't take responsibility for their actions now, constantly blaming the EU for their woes, even when shown not to be the case (remember the Brexit White paper?), so what makes you think they will take responsibility once over the cliff edge? They will find someone else to blame.....anyone but themselves. They don't want the responsibility of accountability. How can folk who aren't supposedly intelligent enough to know what they've voted for take responsibility for anything ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 FunsterJohn - 2019-07-25 10:47 PM It turns out that the Communist Party of GB is enthusiastic about Brexit and sees the EU as disaster for unions and for the UK. Thank you Bulletguy for the link. This must be embarrassing for the Lefties on here! https://www.cpbml.org.uk/leave It's a fascinating read. Blimey! Have you just worked that one out? (lol) Far left, far right, its like a horse shoe that meets in the middle especially when it comes to Brexit. Corbyn is really a Brexiteer. Just look at the likes of IRA and kiddy fiddling supporter Claire Fox MEP From the Brexit party, a former member of the communist party. Both the far right and far left are as bad and damaging as each other. You slag of Corbyn etc and label people commies on here without realising your own political ideology is equally as bad and potentially damaging as a far left communist stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunsterJohn Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-07-26 11:31 AM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-25 10:47 PM It turns out that the Communist Party of GB is enthusiastic about Brexit and sees the EU as disaster for unions and for the UK. Thank you Bulletguy for the link. This must be embarrassing for the Lefties on here! https://www.cpbml.org.uk/leave It's a fascinating read. Blimey! Have you just worked that one out? (lol) Far left, far right, its like a horse shoe that meets in the middle especially when it comes to Brexit. Corbyn is really a Brexiteer. Just look at the likes of IRA and kiddy fiddling supporter Claire Fox MEP From the Brexit party, a former member of the communist party. Both the far right and far left are as bad and damaging as each other. You slag of Corbyn etc and label people commies on here without realising your own political ideology is equally as bad and potentially damaging as a far left communist stance. My political ideology? I'm a centrist Tory who believes in free enterprise but with order. Just because I support Brexit in your eyes I'm an extremist. The real extremists on here are people like you who simply can't understand that any other person might just be right, no matter whether they're an intellectual, a leading businessman or just an ordinary Joe who wants true independence for his country. The whole dialogue of remainers centres on 'we are the only ones clever enough to decide our country's future'. Well, you're not and in a couple of years you'll be sharing a huge humble pie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted July 26, 2019 Author Share Posted July 26, 2019 FunsterJohn - 2019-07-26 10:50 AM Barryd999 - 2019-07-26 11:31 AM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-25 10:47 PM It turns out that the Communist Party of GB is enthusiastic about Brexit and sees the EU as disaster for unions and for the UK. Thank you Bulletguy for the link. This must be embarrassing for the Lefties on here! https://www.cpbml.org.uk/leave It's a fascinating read. Blimey! Have you just worked that one out? (lol) Far left, far right, its like a horse shoe that meets in the middle especially when it comes to Brexit. Corbyn is really a Brexiteer. Just look at the likes of IRA and kiddy fiddling supporter Claire Fox MEP From the Brexit party, a former member of the communist party. Both the far right and far left are as bad and damaging as each other. You slag of Corbyn etc and label people commies on here without realising your own political ideology is equally as bad and potentially damaging as a far left communist stance. My political ideology? I'm a centrist Tory who believes in free enterprise but with order. Just because I support Brexit in your eyes I'm an extremist. The real extremists on here are people like you who simply can't understand that any other person might just be right, no matter whether they're an intellectual, a leading businessman or just an ordinary Joe who wants true independence for his country. The whole dialogue of remainers centres on 'we are the only ones clever enough to decide our country's future'. Well, you're not and in a couple of years you'll be sharing a huge humble pie. Thats where we've got to isnt it ... If you voted Brexit then your a far right loop ... Scots on the other hand who voted for independence much like Brexiteers voted for Brexit are heroes ... Strange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 FunsterJohn - 2019-07-26 10:50 AM Barryd999 - 2019-07-26 11:31 AM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-25 10:47 PM It turns out that the Communist Party of GB is enthusiastic about Brexit and sees the EU as disaster for unions and for the UK. Thank you Bulletguy for the link. This must be embarrassing for the Lefties on here! https://www.cpbml.org.uk/leave It's a fascinating read. Blimey! Have you just worked that one out? (lol) Far left, far right, its like a horse shoe that meets in the middle especially when it comes to Brexit. Corbyn is really a Brexiteer. Just look at the likes of IRA and kiddy fiddling supporter Claire Fox MEP From the Brexit party, a former member of the communist party. Both the far right and far left are as bad and damaging as each other. You slag of Corbyn etc and label people commies on here without realising your own political ideology is equally as bad and potentially damaging as a far left communist stance. My political ideology? I'm a centrist Tory who believes in free enterprise but with order. Just because I support Brexit in your eyes I'm an extremist. The real extremists on here are people like you who simply can't understand that any other person might just be right, no matter whether they're an intellectual, a leading businessman or just an ordinary Joe who wants true independence for his country. The whole dialogue of remainers centres on 'we are the only ones clever enough to decide our country's future'. Well, you're not and in a couple of years you'll be sharing a huge humble pie. Centrist Tory!!! (lol) You certainly dont come across as one. Did you ever read Viz? I suspect not, google Billy Britain. Thats how I picture you. (lol) Im a centrist Tory FFS! Well I was. Ive seen the Tory party and Brexit for what they both are. A far right coup by the few for the few. If your backing the current lot then that makes you the same as them. Fine if thats your bag but anyone supporting the Tories now cannot describe themselves as "centrist" Jeeesaz! I nearly choked on my Pina Colada there. There will be a lot of people eating humble pie I reckon probably less than two years from now but if I were a betting man I would be putting a wad of cash on it not being the remainers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-07-26 3:47 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-26 10:50 AM Barryd999 - 2019-07-26 11:31 AM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-25 10:47 PM It turns out that the Communist Party of GB is enthusiastic about Brexit and sees the EU as disaster for unions and for the UK. Thank you Bulletguy for the link. This must be embarrassing for the Lefties on here! https://www.cpbml.org.uk/leave It's a fascinating read. Blimey! Have you just worked that one out? (lol) Far left, far right, its like a horse shoe that meets in the middle especially when it comes to Brexit. Corbyn is really a Brexiteer. Just look at the likes of IRA and kiddy fiddling supporter Claire Fox MEP From the Brexit party, a former member of the communist party. Both the far right and far left are as bad and damaging as each other. You slag of Corbyn etc and label people commies on here without realising your own political ideology is equally as bad and potentially damaging as a far left communist stance. My political ideology? I'm a centrist Tory who believes in free enterprise but with order. Just because I support Brexit in your eyes I'm an extremist. The real extremists on here are people like you who simply can't understand that any other person might just be right, no matter whether they're an intellectual, a leading businessman or just an ordinary Joe who wants true independence for his country. The whole dialogue of remainers centres on 'we are the only ones clever enough to decide our country's future'. Well, you're not and in a couple of years you'll be sharing a huge humble pie. Centrist Tory!!! (lol) You certainly dont come across as one. Did you ever read Viz? I suspect not, google Billy Britain. Thats how I picture you. (lol) Im a centrist Tory FFS! Well I was. Ive seen the Tory party and Brexit for what they both are. A far right coup by the few for the few. If your backing the current lot then that makes you the same as them. Fine if thats your bag but anyone supporting the Tories now cannot describe themselves as "centrist" Jeeesaz! I nearly choked on my Pina Colada there. There will be a lot of people eating humble pie I reckon probably less than two years from now but if I were a betting man I would be putting a wad of cash on it not being the remainers. I doubt you can claim to be a centrist Tory Barry *-) ........ That center moved decades ago when your old man was a mild mannered headmaster of a posh school ;-) ....... Perhaps you need to take a trip to realityville? :D .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-07-26 3:58 PM Barryd999 - 2019-07-26 3:47 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-26 10:50 AM Barryd999 - 2019-07-26 11:31 AM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-25 10:47 PM It turns out that the Communist Party of GB is enthusiastic about Brexit and sees the EU as disaster for unions and for the UK. Thank you Bulletguy for the link. This must be embarrassing for the Lefties on here! https://www.cpbml.org.uk/leave It's a fascinating read. Blimey! Have you just worked that one out? (lol) Far left, far right, its like a horse shoe that meets in the middle especially when it comes to Brexit. Corbyn is really a Brexiteer. Just look at the likes of IRA and kiddy fiddling supporter Claire Fox MEP From the Brexit party, a former member of the communist party. Both the far right and far left are as bad and damaging as each other. You slag of Corbyn etc and label people commies on here without realising your own political ideology is equally as bad and potentially damaging as a far left communist stance. My political ideology? I'm a centrist Tory who believes in free enterprise but with order. Just because I support Brexit in your eyes I'm an extremist. The real extremists on here are people like you who simply can't understand that any other person might just be right, no matter whether they're an intellectual, a leading businessman or just an ordinary Joe who wants true independence for his country. The whole dialogue of remainers centres on 'we are the only ones clever enough to decide our country's future'. Well, you're not and in a couple of years you'll be sharing a huge humble pie. Centrist Tory!!! (lol) You certainly dont come across as one. Did you ever read Viz? I suspect not, google Billy Britain. Thats how I picture you. (lol) Im a centrist Tory FFS! Well I was. Ive seen the Tory party and Brexit for what they both are. A far right coup by the few for the few. If your backing the current lot then that makes you the same as them. Fine if thats your bag but anyone supporting the Tories now cannot describe themselves as "centrist" Jeeesaz! I nearly choked on my Pina Colada there. There will be a lot of people eating humble pie I reckon probably less than two years from now but if I were a betting man I would be putting a wad of cash on it not being the remainers. I doubt you can claim to be a centrist Tory Barry *-) ........ That center moved decades ago when your old man was a mild mannered headmaster of a posh school ;-) ....... Perhaps you need to take a trip to realityville? :D .......... Please dont tell me your centrist as well Dave. You and FunnyJohn will be building a wigwam next and singing blowin in the wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-07-26 10:31 AM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-25 10:47 PM It turns out that the Communist Party of GB is enthusiastic about Brexit and sees the EU as disaster for unions and for the UK. Thank you Bulletguy for the link. This must be embarrassing for the Lefties on here! https://www.cpbml.org.uk/leave It's a fascinating read. Blimey! Have you just worked that one out? (lol) Far left, far right, its like a horse shoe that meets in the middle especially when it comes to Brexit. Corbyn is really a Brexiteer. Just look at the likes of IRA and kiddy fiddling supporter Claire Fox MEP From the Brexit party, a former member of the communist party. Both the far right and far left are as bad and damaging as each other. You slag of Corbyn etc and label people commies on here without realising your own political ideology is equally as bad and potentially damaging as a far left communist stance. It's not as though it's the first time i mentioned it either including the party link but the usual circle jerkers get off ranting about "commies" "Marxists" "loony lefties" etc without understanding the irony. Putin has played 'em all along and it's still not clicked. UKIP gets a thug currently behind bars and Fuherages pay pal party recruits a child porn supporter.....way to go eh? *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 FunsterJohn - 2019-07-26 10:50 AM..................….My political ideology? I'm a centrist Tory who believes in free enterprise but with order. …………………………….. The whole dialogue of remainers centres on 'we are the only ones clever enough to decide our country's future'. Well, you're not and in a couple of years you'll be sharing a huge humble pie. Two things here. First, I guess most of us like to see ourselves as centrists, because we otherwise have to accept that we are veering toward one, or other, extreme. The problem seems to be that we take the centre with us from issue to issue - not recognising how far to the political left or right we have strayed as we do so. It is not really possible to be a centrist and a member of the Conservative party, any more than if one were a member of the Labour party. There are a very few folk on the Conservative left or the Labour right who could reasonably make that claim, but I doubt if they see themselves that way. Second, one could as easily observe that "we are the only ones clever enough to decide our country's future" is very much the mantra of the Conservatives - whose declared ambition is to prevent the Labour party coming to office because of the destruction they would cause. Hardly a frank admission that no-one has a monopoly on good ideas, is it? Brexit is not, except at the extremes, a political matter. That is why the leave/remain rift goes straight through bot parties. The leavers see the EU on the one hand as some kind of socialist plot, and on the other hand some kind of capitalist plot. They know exactly what they dislike about it - though much of that, on both sides, seems to me to be based on myth or misunderstanding. That is their appeal, they both have something to knock against, or something to fear. Their arguments are mainly emotional, and emotion trumps reason in human psychology. That is why they have the most easily understood, but poorly unreasoned, arguments. So, we are left in the realm of the Gadarene swine, in a headlong rush to oblivion. If someone is able to substitute humble pie for oblivion no-one will be happier than me, but that possible outcome seems remote in the extreme at present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-07-26 4:18 PM pelmetman - 2019-07-26 3:58 PM Barryd999 - 2019-07-26 3:47 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-26 10:50 AM Barryd999 - 2019-07-26 11:31 AM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-25 10:47 PM It turns out that the Communist Party of GB is enthusiastic about Brexit and sees the EU as disaster for unions and for the UK. Thank you Bulletguy for the link. This must be embarrassing for the Lefties on here! https://www.cpbml.org.uk/leave It's a fascinating read. Blimey! Have you just worked that one out? (lol) Far left, far right, its like a horse shoe that meets in the middle especially when it comes to Brexit. Corbyn is really a Brexiteer. Just look at the likes of IRA and kiddy fiddling supporter Claire Fox MEP From the Brexit party, a former member of the communist party. Both the far right and far left are as bad and damaging as each other. You slag of Corbyn etc and label people commies on here without realising your own political ideology is equally as bad and potentially damaging as a far left communist stance. My political ideology? I'm a centrist Tory who believes in free enterprise but with order. Just because I support Brexit in your eyes I'm an extremist. The real extremists on here are people like you who simply can't understand that any other person might just be right, no matter whether they're an intellectual, a leading businessman or just an ordinary Joe who wants true independence for his country. The whole dialogue of remainers centres on 'we are the only ones clever enough to decide our country's future'. Well, you're not and in a couple of years you'll be sharing a huge humble pie. Centrist Tory!!! (lol) You certainly dont come across as one. Did you ever read Viz? I suspect not, google Billy Britain. Thats how I picture you. (lol) Im a centrist Tory FFS! Well I was. Ive seen the Tory party and Brexit for what they both are. A far right coup by the few for the few. If your backing the current lot then that makes you the same as them. Fine if thats your bag but anyone supporting the Tories now cannot describe themselves as "centrist" Jeeesaz! I nearly choked on my Pina Colada there. There will be a lot of people eating humble pie I reckon probably less than two years from now but if I were a betting man I would be putting a wad of cash on it not being the remainers. I doubt you can claim to be a centrist Tory Barry *-) ........ That center moved decades ago when your old man was a mild mannered headmaster of a posh school ;-) ....... Perhaps you need to take a trip to realityville? :D .......... Please dont tell me your centrist as well Dave. You and FunnyJohn will be building a wigwam next and singing blowin in the wind. We have no need for a wigwam as we both have motorhomes.......Plus we know we're Right ;-) ........ Although you Lefty Losers may need to set up a therapy tent :D ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-07-26 6:17 PM Barryd999 - 2019-07-26 4:18 PM pelmetman - 2019-07-26 3:58 PM Barryd999 - 2019-07-26 3:47 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-26 10:50 AM Barryd999 - 2019-07-26 11:31 AM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-25 10:47 PM It turns out that the Communist Party of GB is enthusiastic about Brexit and sees the EU as disaster for unions and for the UK. Thank you Bulletguy for the link. This must be embarrassing for the Lefties on here! https://www.cpbml.org.uk/leave It's a fascinating read. Blimey! Have you just worked that one out? (lol) Far left, far right, its like a horse shoe that meets in the middle especially when it comes to Brexit. Corbyn is really a Brexiteer. Just look at the likes of IRA and kiddy fiddling supporter Claire Fox MEP From the Brexit party, a former member of the communist party. Both the far right and far left are as bad and damaging as each other. You slag of Corbyn etc and label people commies on here without realising your own political ideology is equally as bad and potentially damaging as a far left communist stance. My political ideology? I'm a centrist Tory who believes in free enterprise but with order. Just because I support Brexit in your eyes I'm an extremist. The real extremists on here are people like you who simply can't understand that any other person might just be right, no matter whether they're an intellectual, a leading businessman or just an ordinary Joe who wants true independence for his country. The whole dialogue of remainers centres on 'we are the only ones clever enough to decide our country's future'. Well, you're not and in a couple of years you'll be sharing a huge humble pie. Centrist Tory!!! (lol) You certainly dont come across as one. Did you ever read Viz? I suspect not, google Billy Britain. Thats how I picture you. (lol) Im a centrist Tory FFS! Well I was. Ive seen the Tory party and Brexit for what they both are. A far right coup by the few for the few. If your backing the current lot then that makes you the same as them. Fine if thats your bag but anyone supporting the Tories now cannot describe themselves as "centrist" Jeeesaz! I nearly choked on my Pina Colada there. There will be a lot of people eating humble pie I reckon probably less than two years from now but if I were a betting man I would be putting a wad of cash on it not being the remainers. I doubt you can claim to be a centrist Tory Barry *-) ........ That center moved decades ago when your old man was a mild mannered headmaster of a posh school ;-) ....... Perhaps you need to take a trip to realityville? :D .......... Please dont tell me your centrist as well Dave. You and FunnyJohn will be building a wigwam next and singing blowin in the wind. We have no need for a wigwam as we both have motorhomes.......Plus we know we're Right ;-) ........ Although you Lefty Losers may need to set up a therapy tent :D ......... The only thing you two are "right" about is somewhere "right" of Attila the Hun. Ive seen the light! and its not right! or left. …………………./´¯/) ………………..,/¯../ ………………./…./ …………./´¯/’…’/´¯¯`·¸ ………./’/…/…./……./¨¯’) ………\……………..’…../ ……….”…\………. _.·´ …………\…………..( …………..\………….\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-07-27 12:05 PM pelmetman - 2019-07-26 6:17 PM Barryd999 - 2019-07-26 4:18 PM pelmetman - 2019-07-26 3:58 PM Barryd999 - 2019-07-26 3:47 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-26 10:50 AM Barryd999 - 2019-07-26 11:31 AM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-25 10:47 PM It turns out that the Communist Party of GB is enthusiastic about Brexit and sees the EU as disaster for unions and for the UK. Thank you Bulletguy for the link. This must be embarrassing for the Lefties on here! https://www.cpbml.org.uk/leave It's a fascinating read. Blimey! Have you just worked that one out? (lol) Far left, far right, its like a horse shoe that meets in the middle especially when it comes to Brexit. Corbyn is really a Brexiteer. Just look at the likes of IRA and kiddy fiddling supporter Claire Fox MEP From the Brexit party, a former member of the communist party. Both the far right and far left are as bad and damaging as each other. You slag of Corbyn etc and label people commies on here without realising your own political ideology is equally as bad and potentially damaging as a far left communist stance. My political ideology? I'm a centrist Tory who believes in free enterprise but with order. Just because I support Brexit in your eyes I'm an extremist. The real extremists on here are people like you who simply can't understand that any other person might just be right, no matter whether they're an intellectual, a leading businessman or just an ordinary Joe who wants true independence for his country. The whole dialogue of remainers centres on 'we are the only ones clever enough to decide our country's future'. Well, you're not and in a couple of years you'll be sharing a huge humble pie. Centrist Tory!!! (lol) You certainly dont come across as one. Did you ever read Viz? I suspect not, google Billy Britain. Thats how I picture you. (lol) Im a centrist Tory FFS! Well I was. Ive seen the Tory party and Brexit for what they both are. A far right coup by the few for the few. If your backing the current lot then that makes you the same as them. Fine if thats your bag but anyone supporting the Tories now cannot describe themselves as "centrist" Jeeesaz! I nearly choked on my Pina Colada there. There will be a lot of people eating humble pie I reckon probably less than two years from now but if I were a betting man I would be putting a wad of cash on it not being the remainers. I doubt you can claim to be a centrist Tory Barry *-) ........ That center moved decades ago when your old man was a mild mannered headmaster of a posh school ;-) ....... Perhaps you need to take a trip to realityville? :D .......... Please dont tell me your centrist as well Dave. You and FunnyJohn will be building a wigwam next and singing blowin in the wind. We have no need for a wigwam as we both have motorhomes.......Plus we know we're Right ;-) ........ Although you Lefty Losers may need to set up a therapy tent :D ......... The only thing you two are "right" about is somewhere "right" of Attila the Hun. Ive seen the light! and its not right! or left. …………………./´¯/) ………………..,/¯../ ………………./…./ …………./´¯/’…’/´¯¯`·¸ ………./’/…/…./……./¨¯’) ………\……………..’…../ ……….”…\………. _.·´ …………\…………..( …………..\………….\ Sounds to me your Oh No Jo is even further to the right than Attila........Seeing as she's not prepared to accept the result of a democratic referendum unless its the result she wants *-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-07-27 1:14 PM...……. Sounds to me your Oh No Jo is even further to the right than Attila........Seeing as she's not prepared to accept the result of a democratic referendum unless its the result she wants *-) ......... Dave, we all accept the result, but about half of us don't agree with it. Not the same thing. We don't agree with it because we think it will damage the UK, so we want to stop it. We want to use democratic means to stop it. That is a patriotic thing to do, is it not, to seek to prevent economic damage to our country? So, we're patriotic democrats. What's wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-07-27 3:16 PM pelmetman - 2019-07-27 1:14 PM...……. Sounds to me your Oh No Jo is even further to the right than Attila........Seeing as she's not prepared to accept the result of a democratic referendum unless its the result she wants *-) ......... Dave, we all accept the result, but about half of us don't agree with it. Not the same thing. We don't agree with it because we think it will damage the UK, so we want to stop it. We want to use democratic means to stop it. That is a patriotic thing to do, is it not, to seek to prevent economic damage to our country? So, we're patriotic democrats. What's wrong with that? Have the decency to wait and see what happens, then you can have a referendum 40+ years ;-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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