Guest pelmetman Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-09-04 9:57 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-04 9:23 PM I see if Corbyn wins a GE he'll go to the EU to get a better deal ;-) ........... Then once he's got the deal he'll allow the country to vote on it :-| ......... BUT!!!.......Labour will campaign against their deal and vote to Remain 8-) ....... So you can be damn sure his deal will be even worse than May's *-) ......... Actually I am not sure Corbyns deal would be worse than Mays as he does not have the same red lines. You just said above you would be happy with a common market type arrangement so that is probably what you will get with whatever Corbyn puts forward. I suspect it will mean free movement of course but as most Brexiteers keep saying its not all about immigration that shouldnt be a problem should it? Free movement is Uncontrolled migration *-) ............ 52% of sensible folk would prefer to allow useful migration B-) ......... 48% of blinkered folk think EU criminals should have carte blanch access regardless of their victims 8-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-09-04 9:57 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-04 9:23 PM I see if Corbyn wins a GE he'll go to the EU to get a better deal ;-) ........... Then once he's got the deal he'll allow the country to vote on it :-| ......... BUT!!!.......Labour will campaign against their deal and vote to Remain 8-) ....... So you can be damn sure his deal will be even worse than May's *-) ......... Actually I am not sure Corbyns deal would be worse than Mays as he does not have the same red lines. You just said above you would be happy with a common market type arrangement so that is probably what you will get with whatever Corbyn puts forward. I suspect it will mean free movement of course but as most Brexiteers keep saying its not all about immigration that shouldnt be a problem should it? The problem, IMO, is not Labour-Conservative, nor Corbyn - Johnson (though neither actually helps!) it is that Brexit and the EU is not a party issue, which is why both parties remain irreconcilably split. It seems it is more a matter of personality: some people are content with the idea of pooled sovereignty in pursuit of a greater goal, while others fundamentally distrust this concept because it involves "others". Once upon a time people had the same attitudes to folk from the next village, who were called "foreigners". It seems to be a basic human characteristic that amounts to no more than a strong distrust of strangers, sometimes bordering on xenophobia. It isn't helped living on an island, where we don't have the same history of border-crossing that the mainlanders have, but the same exists across Europe as well. Differing languages exacerbate the distrust. That distrust diminishes through familiarity, which is why the folk from the next village no longer seem so odd. They are now only 5 minutes distant by car, whereas they used to be at least an hour's walk away. We have always held the EEC/EU at arm's length, and the "us and them" differences have been stoked since the first proposals to join in 1963 - which foundered because De Gaulle didn't trust us. This is from a blog on Churchill by Jon Danzig, here: http://tinyurl.com/o5mg8fo "In his famous Zurich speech of 1946, Churchill said, ‘We must build a kind of United States of Europe.. The structure of the United States of Europe, if well and truly built, will be such as to make the material strength of a single state less important.. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join the Union, we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and those who can.’ At London’s Albert Hall, in May 1947, just a few months after his Zurich speech, Churchill spoke as Chairman and Founder of he United Europe Movement to ‘present the idea of a United Europe in which our country will play a decisive part..’ Churchill argued that Britain and France should be the, `founder-partners in this movement’ and concluded, `Britain will have to play her full part as a member of the European family’. In May 1948 Churchill said in the opening speech to the Congress of Europe in Holland, that the drive towards a United Europe, ‘should be a movement of the people, not parties’. (See also The Sydney Morning Herald and British Pathe news report). Churchill, who also proposed a European ‘Charter’ and ‘Court’ of Human Rights, continued, ‘We aim at the eventual participation of all the peoples throughout the continent whose society and way of life are in accord with the Charter of Human Rights.’ During this momentous speech, Churchill proclaimed: ‘We cannot aim at anything less than the Union of Europe as a whole, and we look forward with confidence to the day when that Union will be achieved.’ And Churchill went much further than the idea of the immediate and urgent creation of a United States of Europe. Looking boldly to the future he stated, ‘We must endeavour by patience and faithful service to prepare for the day when there will be an effective world government resting on the main groupings of mankind.’ " We are all different, and the hesitant need encouragement to be more accepting, not beating over the head for being cautious. The same is true on both sides of the Brexit divide - as our present Prime Minister has so ably demonstrated this week. He can perhaps now see the consequences of trying to force his will upon others whose views are diametrically opposite: resistance rises in direct proportion to the force applied. That too is human nature. Francis Bacon wrote, in 1623, "Nothing is terrible except fear itself", later referenced by Franklin Delano Roosevelt in his inaugural speech in March 1933, when he said "So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. The EU is not a ravening monster out to get you, honest! It's just the way you see it. :-D Pax vobiscum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-09-05 9:01 AM...…………….. 1 Free movement is Uncontrolled migration *-) ............ 2 52% of sensible folk would prefer to allow useful migration B-) ......... 3 48% of blinkered folk think EU criminals should have carte blanch access regardless of their victims 8-) ........ 1 No it isn't, those freedoms can only be exercised within defined limits, which give all member states the right to exercise control over who enters and why. 2 Only 52%? Where did you get that? 3 No, that is your over simplistic reasoning, based on 100% minus 52% = 48%, which is arithmetically correct, but completely wrong. Do you really think every other person you meet is borderline certifiable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-09-05 6:56 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-04 9:57 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-04 9:23 PM I see if Corbyn wins a GE he'll go to the EU to get a better deal ;-) ........... Then once he's got the deal he'll allow the country to vote on it :-| ......... BUT!!!.......Labour will campaign against their deal and vote to Remain 8-) ....... So you can be damn sure his deal will be even worse than May's *-) ......... Actually I am not sure Corbyns deal would be worse than Mays as he does not have the same red lines. You just said above you would be happy with a common market type arrangement so that is probably what you will get with whatever Corbyn puts forward. I suspect it will mean free movement of course but as most Brexiteers keep saying its not all about immigration that shouldnt be a problem should it? The problem, IMO, is not Labour-Conservative, nor Corbyn - Johnson (though neither actually helps!) it is that Brexit and the EU is not a party issue, which is why both parties remain irreconcilably split. It seems it is more a matter of personality: some people are content with the idea of pooled sovereignty in pursuit of a greater goal, while others fundamentally distrust this concept because it involves "others". Once upon a time people had the same attitudes to folk from the next village, who were called "foreigners". It seems to be a basic human characteristic that amounts to no more than a strong distrust of strangers, sometimes bordering on xenophobia. It isn't helped living on an island, where we don't have the same history of border-crossing that the mainlanders have, but the same exists across Europe as well. Differing languages exacerbate the distrust. That distrust diminishes through familiarity, which is why the folk from the next village no longer seem so odd. They are now only 5 minutes distant by car, whereas they used to be at least an hour's walk away. We have always held the EEC/EU at arm's length, and the "us and them" differences have been stoked since the first proposals to join in 1963 - which foundered because De Gaulle didn't trust us. This is from a blog on Churchill by Jon Danzig, here: http://tinyurl.com/o5mg8fo "In his famous Zurich speech of 1946, Churchill said, ‘We must build a kind of United States of Europe.. The structure of the United States of Europe, if well and truly built, will be such as to make the material strength of a single state less important.. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join the Union, we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and those who can.’ At London’s Albert Hall, in May 1947, just a few months after his Zurich speech, Churchill spoke as Chairman and Founder of he United Europe Movement to ‘present the idea of a United Europe in which our country will play a decisive part..’ Churchill argued that Britain and France should be the, `founder-partners in this movement’ and concluded, `Britain will have to play her full part as a member of the European family’. In May 1948 Churchill said in the opening speech to the Congress of Europe in Holland, that the drive towards a United Europe, ‘should be a movement of the people, not parties’. (See also The Sydney Morning Herald and British Pathe news report). Churchill, who also proposed a European ‘Charter’ and ‘Court’ of Human Rights, continued, ‘We aim at the eventual participation of all the peoples throughout the continent whose society and way of life are in accord with the Charter of Human Rights.’ During this momentous speech, Churchill proclaimed: ‘We cannot aim at anything less than the Union of Europe as a whole, and we look forward with confidence to the day when that Union will be achieved.’ And Churchill went much further than the idea of the immediate and urgent creation of a United States of Europe. Looking boldly to the future he stated, ‘We must endeavour by patience and faithful service to prepare for the day when there will be an effective world government resting on the main groupings of mankind.’ " We are all different, and the hesitant need encouragement to be more accepting, not beating over the head for being cautious. The same is true on both sides of the Brexit divide - as our present Prime Minister has so ably demonstrated this week. He can perhaps now see the consequences of trying to force his will upon others whose views are diametrically opposite: resistance rises in direct proportion to the force applied. That too is human nature. Francis Bacon wrote, in 1623, "Nothing is terrible except fear itself", later referenced by Franklin Delano Roosevelt in his inaugural speech in March 1933, when he said "So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. The EU is not a ravening monster out to get you, honest! It's just the way you see it. :-D Pax vobiscum. A brilliant piece Brian. Churchill was clearly a visionary when it came to Europe, something I imagine irks the Brexiteers. I was amazed when I started reading the various polls in 2016 on motorhome forums regarding Brexit as it kind of flew in the face of what you just said. Some forums were polling 70% for leaving! How could this be? Well travelled people to whom the funny foreigners should not be strangers voting to leave and thus curtail and hamper their future travels. Seemed like Turkeys voting for Christmas but then I remembered that my experience of many Brit motorhomers abroad is they dont "get out much". How many of them interact or get to know the locals where they are or make an effort to learn the language? Of course back then all this talk about travel being limited to 90 days, no EHIC card etc was just dismissed as project fear. Oh dear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-09-05 7:01 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-05 9:01 AM...…………….. 1 Free movement is Uncontrolled migration *-) ............ 2 52% of sensible folk would prefer to allow useful migration B-) ......... 3 48% of blinkered folk think EU criminals should have carte blanch access regardless of their victims 8-) ........ 1 No it isn't, those freedoms can only be exercised within defined limits, which give all member states the right to exercise control over who enters and why. 2 Only 52%? Where did you get that? 3 No, that is your over simplistic reasoning, based on 100% minus 52% = 48%, which is arithmetically correct, but completely wrong. Do you really think every other person you meet is borderline certifiable? 1.......You may call this control :-| ........In essence, this law says that the longer a migrant lives in the host country the more rights they get and the harder it is to remove them. It allows: 0-3 months when the UK can refuse individuals entry or deport them for public policy, public security and public health reasons 3 months – 5 years when the UK can deport individuals for public policy and public security reasons 5 years – 10 years when the UK can deport individuals for serious reasons of public policy and public security 10 years plus when the UK can deport individuals for imperative reasons of public security https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-deporting-eu-immigrants/ I don't *-) .......... 2.........June 2016 3.........Only 48% are borderline certifiable >:-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1175377/boris-johnson-brexit-news-voters-poll-labour-tories-uk-politics That's why Cluck Cluck Corbyn doesn't want an election he knows..........He'll LOSE >:-) ....... Just goes to show terrorist sympathizing communists are as popular as Ebola with the Great British Public :D ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-09-09 11:35 AM Just goes to show terrorist sympathizing communists are as popular as Ebola with the Great British Public :D ........... The latest anti-Corbyn smear from the Daily Mail is absolutely extraordinary. On Saturday they led on how they had "never before seen photos of Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell at the wedding of Guildfords Four Paul Hill" The Guildford Four were proven innocent of the terrorist attack they were framed for, and completely exonerated of the crime they spent 15 years in jail for after an extensive fight for justice, and the revelation that they were framed. By supporting their fight for justice Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell were once again demonstrably on the right side of history. Yet somehow the Daily Mail reverses reality by making it appear as if Corbyn and McDonnell were doing something subversive and treacherous by supporting an innocent man's fight for justice. By making absolutely no reference to Hill's innocence, or the innocence of the other 10 people framed by the police in the article title text, the Daily Mail is cynically playing on people's ignorance, hoping that they see this story as "Corbyn photographed supporting Irish Republican terrorism" rather than "Corbyn supporting a proven innocent man who was framed for a crime he did not commit". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Pelmet only ever "sees" terrorist sympathisers on the left though. He ignores right wing sympathisers as they don't fit his narrative so covers his eyes and pretends they never existed. Thatcher big bosom buddies with Pinochet and Trump with Gerry Adams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-09-09 5:50 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-09 11:35 AM Just goes to show terrorist sympathizing communists are as popular as Ebola with the Great British Public :D ........... The latest anti-Corbyn smear from the Daily Mail is absolutely extraordinary. On Saturday they led on how they had "never before seen photos of Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell at the wedding of Guildfords Four Paul Hill" The Guildford Four were proven innocent of the terrorist attack they were framed for, and completely exonerated of the crime they spent 15 years in jail for after an extensive fight for justice, and the revelation that they were framed. By supporting their fight for justice Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell were once again demonstrably on the right side of history. Yet somehow the Daily Mail reverses reality by making it appear as if Corbyn and McDonnell were doing something subversive and treacherous by supporting an innocent man's fight for justice. By making absolutely no reference to Hill's innocence, or the innocence of the other 10 people framed by the police in the article title text, the Daily Mail is cynically playing on people's ignorance, hoping that they see this story as "Corbyn photographed supporting Irish Republican terrorism" rather than "Corbyn supporting a proven innocent man who was framed for a crime he did not commit". So he and you are not IRA sympathizers? >:-) ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-09-09 6:12 PM Pelmet only ever "sees" terrorist sympathisers on the left though. He ignores right wing sympathisers as they don't fit his narrative so covers his eyes and pretends they never existed. Thatcher big bosom buddies with Pinochet and Trump with Gerry Adams. Did Pinochet murder innocent Brits? *-) ............. You lefties really are quite disgusting apologists >:-( ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-09-09 6:15 PM Bulletguy - 2019-09-09 6:12 PM Pelmet only ever "sees" terrorist sympathisers on the left though. He ignores right wing sympathisers as they don't fit his narrative so covers his eyes and pretends they never existed. Thatcher big bosom buddies with Pinochet and Trump with Gerry Adams. Did Pinochet murder innocent Brits? *-) ............. You lefties really are quite disgusting apologists >:-( ........ So who did Paul Hill murder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-09-06 8:19 AM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-05 6:56 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-04 9:57 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-04 9:23 PM I see if Corbyn wins a GE he'll go to the EU to get a better deal ;-) ........... Then once he's got the deal he'll allow the country to vote on it :-| ......... BUT!!!.......Labour will campaign against their deal and vote to Remain 8-) ....... So you can be damn sure his deal will be even worse than May's *-) ......... Actually I am not sure Corbyns deal would be worse than Mays as he does not have the same red lines. You just said above you would be happy with a common market type arrangement so that is probably what you will get with whatever Corbyn puts forward. I suspect it will mean free movement of course but as most Brexiteers keep saying its not all about immigration that shouldnt be a problem should it? The problem, IMO, is not Labour-Conservative, nor Corbyn - Johnson (though neither actually helps!) it is that Brexit and the EU is not a party issue, which is why both parties remain irreconcilably split. It seems it is more a matter of personality: some people are content with the idea of pooled sovereignty in pursuit of a greater goal, while others fundamentally distrust this concept because it involves "others". Once upon a time people had the same attitudes to folk from the next village, who were called "foreigners". It seems to be a basic human characteristic that amounts to no more than a strong distrust of strangers, sometimes bordering on xenophobia. It isn't helped living on an island, where we don't have the same history of border-crossing that the mainlanders have, but the same exists across Europe as well. Differing languages exacerbate the distrust. That distrust diminishes through familiarity, which is why the folk from the next village no longer seem so odd. They are now only 5 minutes distant by car, whereas they used to be at least an hour's walk away. We have always held the EEC/EU at arm's length, and the "us and them" differences have been stoked since the first proposals to join in 1963 - which foundered because De Gaulle didn't trust us. This is from a blog on Churchill by Jon Danzig, here: http://tinyurl.com/o5mg8fo "In his famous Zurich speech of 1946, Churchill said, ‘We must build a kind of United States of Europe.. The structure of the United States of Europe, if well and truly built, will be such as to make the material strength of a single state less important.. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join the Union, we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and those who can.’ At London’s Albert Hall, in May 1947, just a few months after his Zurich speech, Churchill spoke as Chairman and Founder of he United Europe Movement to ‘present the idea of a United Europe in which our country will play a decisive part..’ Churchill argued that Britain and France should be the, `founder-partners in this movement’ and concluded, `Britain will have to play her full part as a member of the European family’. In May 1948 Churchill said in the opening speech to the Congress of Europe in Holland, that the drive towards a United Europe, ‘should be a movement of the people, not parties’. (See also The Sydney Morning Herald and British Pathe news report). Churchill, who also proposed a European ‘Charter’ and ‘Court’ of Human Rights, continued, ‘We aim at the eventual participation of all the peoples throughout the continent whose society and way of life are in accord with the Charter of Human Rights.’ During this momentous speech, Churchill proclaimed: ‘We cannot aim at anything less than the Union of Europe as a whole, and we look forward with confidence to the day when that Union will be achieved.’ And Churchill went much further than the idea of the immediate and urgent creation of a United States of Europe. Looking boldly to the future he stated, ‘We must endeavour by patience and faithful service to prepare for the day when there will be an effective world government resting on the main groupings of mankind.’ " We are all different, and the hesitant need encouragement to be more accepting, not beating over the head for being cautious. The same is true on both sides of the Brexit divide - as our present Prime Minister has so ably demonstrated this week. He can perhaps now see the consequences of trying to force his will upon others whose views are diametrically opposite: resistance rises in direct proportion to the force applied. That too is human nature. Francis Bacon wrote, in 1623, "Nothing is terrible except fear itself", later referenced by Franklin Delano Roosevelt in his inaugural speech in March 1933, when he said "So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. The EU is not a ravening monster out to get you, honest! It's just the way you see it. :-D Pax vobiscum. A brilliant piece Brian. Churchill was clearly a visionary when it came to Europe, something I imagine irks the Brexiteers. I was amazed when I started reading the various polls in 2016 on motorhome forums regarding Brexit as it kind of flew in the face of what you just said. Some forums were polling 70% for leaving! How could this be? Well travelled people to whom the funny foreigners should not be strangers voting to leave and thus curtail and hamper their future travels. Seemed like Turkeys voting for Christmas but then I remembered that my experience of many Brit motorhomers abroad is they dont "get out much". How many of them interact or get to know the locals where they are or make an effort to learn the language? Of course back then all this talk about travel being limited to 90 days, no EHIC card etc was just dismissed as project fear. Oh dear. Ha ha . You do make me laugh. Get to know the locals.Ha ha ha. Well Churchill was right it certainly is a movement of the people.Typical politician sets out what he thinks is a good idea but never bothers to ask “ the people” . Common market fine ..Eu no thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-09-06 8:19 AM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-05 6:56 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-04 9:57 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-04 9:23 PM I see if Corbyn wins a GE he'll go to the EU to get a better deal ;-) ........... Then once he's got the deal he'll allow the country to vote on it :-| ......... BUT!!!.......Labour will campaign against their deal and vote to Remain 8-) ....... So you can be damn sure his deal will be even worse than May's *-) ......... Actually I am not sure Corbyns deal would be worse than Mays as he does not have the same red lines. You just said above you would be happy with a common market type arrangement so that is probably what you will get with whatever Corbyn puts forward. I suspect it will mean free movement of course but as most Brexiteers keep saying its not all about immigration that shouldnt be a problem should it? The problem, IMO, is not Labour-Conservative, nor Corbyn - Johnson (though neither actually helps!) it is that Brexit and the EU is not a party issue, which is why both parties remain irreconcilably split. It seems it is more a matter of personality: some people are content with the idea of pooled sovereignty in pursuit of a greater goal, while others fundamentally distrust this concept because it involves "others". Once upon a time people had the same attitudes to folk from the next village, who were called "foreigners". It seems to be a basic human characteristic that amounts to no more than a strong distrust of strangers, sometimes bordering on xenophobia. It isn't helped living on an island, where we don't have the same history of border-crossing that the mainlanders have, but the same exists across Europe as well. Differing languages exacerbate the distrust. That distrust diminishes through familiarity, which is why the folk from the next village no longer seem so odd. They are now only 5 minutes distant by car, whereas they used to be at least an hour's walk away. We have always held the EEC/EU at arm's length, and the "us and them" differences have been stoked since the first proposals to join in 1963 - which foundered because De Gaulle didn't trust us. This is from a blog on Churchill by Jon Danzig, here: http://tinyurl.com/o5mg8fo "In his famous Zurich speech of 1946, Churchill said, ‘We must build a kind of United States of Europe.. The structure of the United States of Europe, if well and truly built, will be such as to make the material strength of a single state less important.. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join the Union, we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and those who can.’ At London’s Albert Hall, in May 1947, just a few months after his Zurich speech, Churchill spoke as Chairman and Founder of he United Europe Movement to ‘present the idea of a United Europe in which our country will play a decisive part..’ Churchill argued that Britain and France should be the, `founder-partners in this movement’ and concluded, `Britain will have to play her full part as a member of the European family’. In May 1948 Churchill said in the opening speech to the Congress of Europe in Holland, that the drive towards a United Europe, ‘should be a movement of the people, not parties’. (See also The Sydney Morning Herald and British Pathe news report). Churchill, who also proposed a European ‘Charter’ and ‘Court’ of Human Rights, continued, ‘We aim at the eventual participation of all the peoples throughout the continent whose society and way of life are in accord with the Charter of Human Rights.’ During this momentous speech, Churchill proclaimed: ‘We cannot aim at anything less than the Union of Europe as a whole, and we look forward with confidence to the day when that Union will be achieved.’ And Churchill went much further than the idea of the immediate and urgent creation of a United States of Europe. Looking boldly to the future he stated, ‘We must endeavour by patience and faithful service to prepare for the day when there will be an effective world government resting on the main groupings of mankind.’ " We are all different, and the hesitant need encouragement to be more accepting, not beating over the head for being cautious. The same is true on both sides of the Brexit divide - as our present Prime Minister has so ably demonstrated this week. He can perhaps now see the consequences of trying to force his will upon others whose views are diametrically opposite: resistance rises in direct proportion to the force applied. That too is human nature. Francis Bacon wrote, in 1623, "Nothing is terrible except fear itself", later referenced by Franklin Delano Roosevelt in his inaugural speech in March 1933, when he said "So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. The EU is not a ravening monster out to get you, honest! It's just the way you see it. :-D Pax vobiscum. A brilliant piece Brian. Churchill was clearly a visionary when it came to Europe, something I imagine irks the Brexiteers. I was amazed when I started reading the various polls in 2016 on motorhome forums regarding Brexit as it kind of flew in the face of what you just said. Some forums were polling 70% for leaving! How could this be? Well travelled people to whom the funny foreigners should not be strangers voting to leave and thus curtail and hamper their future travels. Seemed like Turkeys voting for Christmas but then I remembered that my experience of many Brit motorhomers abroad is they dont "get out much". How many of them interact or get to know the locals where they are or make an effort to learn the language? Of course back then all this talk about travel being limited to 90 days, no EHIC card etc was just dismissed as project fear. Oh dear. Bib.....extremely few interact hence the Brit enclaves in France and Spain. First time i toured in Bulgaria i stayed a week or so on a site owned and run by a British chap who packed his bags and left UK years ago. He speaks fluent Bulgarian, taught me a few basic words and said, "learn to use that and the locals will love you for it because they know you've at least made a bit of effort....they don't care your pronunciation will sound weird or words get mixed up". Last year in Serbia a Brit mh couple came on site.....a real rarity to see a UK reg there so i got chatting to them. Seemed ok'ish though his wife was a bit stuck up. But each evening i'd either go into town for a meal with a couple of Serbs or the little restaurant near the c/site. Then i'd spend the rest of the evening drinking with the Serbs who ran the c/site. The Brit couple sat stuck in their van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Just to balance the books Bullet, a lot of Brits speak a second language. They learn it at school you know. *-) Your grasp of languages is inspiring to us all. I won't mention my Arabic, Portuguese, Afrikaans or the smattering of others I picked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-09-09 9:14 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-06 8:19 AM Brian Kirby - 2019-09-05 6:56 PM Barryd999 - 2019-09-04 9:57 PM pelmetman - 2019-09-04 9:23 PM I see if Corbyn wins a GE he'll go to the EU to get a better deal ;-) ........... Then once he's got the deal he'll allow the country to vote on it :-| ......... BUT!!!.......Labour will campaign against their deal and vote to Remain 8-) ....... So you can be damn sure his deal will be even worse than May's *-) ......... Actually I am not sure Corbyns deal would be worse than Mays as he does not have the same red lines. You just said above you would be happy with a common market type arrangement so that is probably what you will get with whatever Corbyn puts forward. I suspect it will mean free movement of course but as most Brexiteers keep saying its not all about immigration that shouldnt be a problem should it? The problem, IMO, is not Labour-Conservative, nor Corbyn - Johnson (though neither actually helps!) it is that Brexit and the EU is not a party issue, which is why both parties remain irreconcilably split. It seems it is more a matter of personality: some people are content with the idea of pooled sovereignty in pursuit of a greater goal, while others fundamentally distrust this concept because it involves "others". Once upon a time people had the same attitudes to folk from the next village, who were called "foreigners". It seems to be a basic human characteristic that amounts to no more than a strong distrust of strangers, sometimes bordering on xenophobia. It isn't helped living on an island, where we don't have the same history of border-crossing that the mainlanders have, but the same exists across Europe as well. Differing languages exacerbate the distrust. That distrust diminishes through familiarity, which is why the folk from the next village no longer seem so odd. They are now only 5 minutes distant by car, whereas they used to be at least an hour's walk away. We have always held the EEC/EU at arm's length, and the "us and them" differences have been stoked since the first proposals to join in 1963 - which foundered because De Gaulle didn't trust us. This is from a blog on Churchill by Jon Danzig, here: http://tinyurl.com/o5mg8fo "In his famous Zurich speech of 1946, Churchill said, ‘We must build a kind of United States of Europe.. The structure of the United States of Europe, if well and truly built, will be such as to make the material strength of a single state less important.. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join the Union, we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and those who can.’ At London’s Albert Hall, in May 1947, just a few months after his Zurich speech, Churchill spoke as Chairman and Founder of he United Europe Movement to ‘present the idea of a United Europe in which our country will play a decisive part..’ Churchill argued that Britain and France should be the, `founder-partners in this movement’ and concluded, `Britain will have to play her full part as a member of the European family’. In May 1948 Churchill said in the opening speech to the Congress of Europe in Holland, that the drive towards a United Europe, ‘should be a movement of the people, not parties’. (See also The Sydney Morning Herald and British Pathe news report). Churchill, who also proposed a European ‘Charter’ and ‘Court’ of Human Rights, continued, ‘We aim at the eventual participation of all the peoples throughout the continent whose society and way of life are in accord with the Charter of Human Rights.’ During this momentous speech, Churchill proclaimed: ‘We cannot aim at anything less than the Union of Europe as a whole, and we look forward with confidence to the day when that Union will be achieved.’ And Churchill went much further than the idea of the immediate and urgent creation of a United States of Europe. Looking boldly to the future he stated, ‘We must endeavour by patience and faithful service to prepare for the day when there will be an effective world government resting on the main groupings of mankind.’ " We are all different, and the hesitant need encouragement to be more accepting, not beating over the head for being cautious. The same is true on both sides of the Brexit divide - as our present Prime Minister has so ably demonstrated this week. He can perhaps now see the consequences of trying to force his will upon others whose views are diametrically opposite: resistance rises in direct proportion to the force applied. That too is human nature. Francis Bacon wrote, in 1623, "Nothing is terrible except fear itself", later referenced by Franklin Delano Roosevelt in his inaugural speech in March 1933, when he said "So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. The EU is not a ravening monster out to get you, honest! It's just the way you see it. :-D Pax vobiscum. A brilliant piece Brian. Churchill was clearly a visionary when it came to Europe, something I imagine irks the Brexiteers. I was amazed when I started reading the various polls in 2016 on motorhome forums regarding Brexit as it kind of flew in the face of what you just said. Some forums were polling 70% for leaving! How could this be? Well travelled people to whom the funny foreigners should not be strangers voting to leave and thus curtail and hamper their future travels. Seemed like Turkeys voting for Christmas but then I remembered that my experience of many Brit motorhomers abroad is they dont "get out much". How many of them interact or get to know the locals where they are or make an effort to learn the language? Of course back then all this talk about travel being limited to 90 days, no EHIC card etc was just dismissed as project fear. Oh dear. Bib.....extremely few interact hence the Brit enclaves in France and Spain. First time i toured in Bulgaria i stayed a week or so on a site owned and run by a British chap who packed his bags and left UK years ago. He speaks fluent Bulgarian, taught me a few basic words and said, "learn to use that and the locals will love you for it because they know you've at least made a bit of effort....they don't care your pronunciation will sound weird or words get mixed up". Last year in Serbia a Brit mh couple came on site.....a real rarity to see a UK reg there so i got chatting to them. Seemed ok'ish though his wife was a bit stuck up. But each evening i'd either go into town for a meal with a couple of Serbs or the little restaurant near the c/site. Then i'd spend the rest of the evening drinking with the Serbs who ran the c/site. The Brit couple sat stuck in their van. Why would you go all the way to Serbia and just sit in or outside your van? I have seen the same on French Aires though. Ive even seen on many motorhome forums motorhomers slagging off the French yet its the most popular destination by a country mile. Basically a lot of them go to France or Spain just because its better weather. Stock up on baked beans and cheddar Cheese and go and sit outside your van in a car park on the French med coast or some dreadful costa del Brexit and talk to nobody or go anywhere. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-09-09 11:15 PM Bulletguy - 2019-09-09 9:14 PM Bib.....extremely few interact hence the Brit enclaves in France and Spain. First time i toured in Bulgaria i stayed a week or so on a site owned and run by a British chap who packed his bags and left UK years ago. He speaks fluent Bulgarian, taught me a few basic words and said, "learn to use that and the locals will love you for it because they know you've at least made a bit of effort....they don't care your pronunciation will sound weird or words get mixed up". Last year in Serbia a Brit mh couple came on site.....a real rarity to see a UK reg there so i got chatting to them. Seemed ok'ish though his wife was a bit stuck up. But each evening i'd either go into town for a meal with a couple of Serbs or the little restaurant near the c/site. Then i'd spend the rest of the evening drinking with the Serbs who ran the c/site. The Brit couple sat stuck in their van. Why would you go all the way to Serbia and just sit in or outside your van? I have seen the same on French Aires though. Ive even seen on many motorhome forums motorhomers slagging off the French yet its the most popular destination by a country mile. Basically a lot of them go to France or Spain just because its better weather. Stock up on baked beans and cheddar Cheese and go and sit outside your van in a car park on the French med coast or some dreadful costa del Brexit and talk to nobody or go anywhere. (lol) I've always put it down to the islander mentality. The site had a large covered area with tables/chairs which was a godsend as during the day temps can sometimes get pretty hot. The camp director guy i got to know over the years which proved useful as he's ex-police and all Serb police in that area know him. A Serb family have a caravan permanently sited and they used to come every weekend....always with a bottle of schnapps which they shared out. Last year a German guy, two Slovak families, a Polish couple and two Dutch. We'd all sit around having drinks into the early hours.......but not the Brits who'd lock themselves in their van. To be honest whatever country i'm in i'd sooner mix it with the locals anyway so i get to find out their culture and their foods etc.....i see Brits all the time i'm in UK! I remember one year staying a few days at a German pals place, he wants to go to an Irish bar in the nearby town. A bloody Irish bar fgs! Peter said to me, "but i thought you drink Guinness?" Yeah i do but i can get that any day of the week in UK. I told him "i'm in Germany so we go to a German bar with German beers"!! Besides...the barmaids look so much better and they serve you in some bars! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 747 - 2019-09-09 11:12 PM Just to balance the books Bullet, a lot of Brits speak a second language. They learn it at school you know. *-) Your grasp of languages is inspiring to us all. I won't mention my Arabic, Portuguese, Afrikaans or the smattering of others I picked up. Bullet is fluent in Left wing Hogwash and Socialist Bullsh*t :D ......... He learn't it on the knee of his trade union rep >:-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-09-09 6:12 PM Pelmet only ever "sees" terrorist sympathisers on the left though. He ignores right wing sympathisers as they don't fit his narrative so covers his eyes and pretends they never existed. Thatcher big bosom buddies with Pinochet and Trump with Gerry Adams. And the Israeli’s.......and the French.......and Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-09-10 8:53 AM 747 - 2019-09-09 11:12 PM Just to balance the books Bullet, a lot of Brits speak a second language. They learn it at school you know. *-) Your grasp of languages is inspiring to us all. I won't mention my Arabic, Portuguese, Afrikaans or the smattering of others I picked up. Bullet is fluent in Left wing Hogwash and Socialist Bullsh*t :D ......... He learn't it on the knee of his trade union rep >:-) ........ So how many people did Paul Hill murder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-09-10 9:52 AM pelmetman - 2019-09-10 8:53 AM 747 - 2019-09-09 11:12 PM Just to balance the books Bullet, a lot of Brits speak a second language. They learn it at school you know. *-) Your grasp of languages is inspiring to us all. I won't mention my Arabic, Portuguese, Afrikaans or the smattering of others I picked up. Bullet is fluent in Left wing Hogwash and Socialist Bullsh*t :D ......... He learn't it on the knee of his trade union rep >:-) ........ So how many people did Paul Hill murder? He was a miscarriage of justice victim...........for which he received millions in compensation and is alive :-| ......... How much compensation have the families 1696 victims of the IRA had? *-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-09-10 11:17 AM He was a miscarriage of justice victim...........for which he received millions in compensation and is alive :-| ......... How much compensation have the families 1696 victims of the IRA had? *-) ......... So why then did the Daily Heil run with this headline at the weekend? To reinforce any doubt that Corbyn is a "terrorist sympathiser" in their dimwitted readership - people like you. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7418973/Jeremy-Corbyn-pictured-jail-wedding-Guildford-Four-member-Paul-Hill.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-09-10 11:44 AM pelmetman - 2019-09-10 11:17 AM He was a miscarriage of justice victim...........for which he received millions in compensation and is alive :-| ......... How much compensation have the families 1696 victims of the IRA had? *-) ......... So why then did the Daily Heil run with this headline at the weekend? To reinforce any doubt that Corbyn is a "terrorist sympathiser" in their dimwitted readership - people like you. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7418973/Jeremy-Corbyn-pictured-jail-wedding-Guildford-Four-member-Paul-Hill.html But we already knew Cluck Cluck Corbyn and you are IRA sympathizers >:-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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