NickVanBitz Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 spirou - 2019-11-15 11:58 AM You just have to read his texts as being written by someone who was tired of marketing BS, working on terrible installations and consulting people who did consider batteries as something that has to work no matter what they subject them to. From that perspective a battery really is just a battery and not a part of a system. …….. and bottom line, there's the problem!! Sadly Lithium is being fitted out there without the customer being properly informed/qualified as to either Lithium is for them, nor the dealer/distributor having the knowledge to fit Lithium, nor the foggiest about the dangers of fitting Lithium. As far as I am aware there is no direct Li replacement unit on the market that is a simple direct swap, you have to know many things: - What factory equipment/wiring is in place? Standard Split-Charging is neither suitable or safe to charge a LiFePO4, unless it has some sort of DC charger built in, - Are they using high output inverters? Some Lithium is limited to maximum output current, so if you have a heavy draw, you may find the battery cuts out, - if fitted with solar, what regulators are being used? Standard Solar regulators aren't suitable, so an MPPT regulator with the correct profile has to be used, - where is the current leisure battery location, bearing in mind of the temperature limitations of some Li?. These are facts that have to be explained to customers every time they are enquiring about an Li installation and all the above (and more pending on van use) needs to be discussed before Li is suggested. Lithium is a massive improvement in Battery technology and has been very beneficial to customers trying to increase battery capacity with a limited payload to the van and wanting the durability the Lithium can offer...……….. when installed correctly!! It is equally important to remember that having an Li installation is more about the timescale of you are motorcaravanning and not when it's fitted to a particular vehicle, as I would be suggesting transferring it from van-to-van. Another slight battery industry oversite in my opinion is also the products that have been fitted (which have an internal BMS) that have not undergone an E-Mark approval test for Automotive use. As the BMS in an electronic device, connected to a motor vehicle (either through a B2B/DC-DC Charger going to the chassis side of the motorcaravan), it should like so many other equipment that is fitted to a motorcaravan, carry the E-Mark for road use. Many good manufacturers of Lithium Batteries (Sterling-Power and Victron as an example) carry this mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowdriver Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 This may be of interest. It is a German owner of a Ducato Panel Van, who with his partner has a thriving YouTube channel. They live in their La Strada EB for considerable periods and much of that off grid, I think. It is in German. Google closed captions and auto translate help very modestly. The title is, according Google Translate: "The truth about lithium battery in the motorhome ?? 3 years of practice experience ?? this is how we built it" However those of you who understand such things may be able to make something of it. I have no technical knowledge but I believe it demonstrates that a lithium set up is significantly different from a conventional one. It's certainly a lot more kit than my recently departed Bilbo's Celex LWB T5 had in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 NickVanBitz - 2019-11-15 1:27 PM spirou - 2019-11-15 11:58 AM You just have to read his texts as being written by someone who was tired of marketing BS, working on terrible installations and consulting people who did consider batteries as something that has to work no matter what they subject them to. From that perspective a battery really is just a battery and not a part of a system. …….. and bottom line, there's the problem!! Sadly Lithium is being fitted out there without the customer being properly informed/qualified as to either Lithium is for them, nor the dealer/distributor having the knowledge to fit Lithium, nor the foggiest about the dangers of fitting Lithium. As far as I am aware there is no direct Li replacement unit on the market that is a simple direct swap, you have to know many things: - What factory equipment/wiring is in place? Standard Split-Charging is neither suitable or safe to charge a LiFePO4, unless it has some sort of DC charger built in, - Are they using high output inverters? Some Lithium is limited to maximum output current, so if you have a heavy draw, you may find the battery cuts out, - if fitted with solar, what regulators are being used? Standard Solar regulators aren't suitable, so an MPPT regulator with the correct profile has to be used, - where is the current leisure battery location, bearing in mind of the temperature limitations of some Li?. These are facts that have to be explained to customers every time they are enquiring about an Li installation and all the above (and more pending on van use) needs to be discussed before Li is suggested. Lithium is a massive improvement in Battery technology and has been very beneficial to customers trying to increase battery capacity with a limited payload to the van and wanting the durability the Lithium can offer...……….. when installed correctly!! It is equally important to remember that having an Li installation is more about the timescale of you are motorcaravanning and not when it's fitted to a particular vehicle, as I would be suggesting transferring it from van-to-van. Another slight battery industry oversite in my opinion is also the products that have been fitted (which have an internal BMS) that have not undergone an E-Mark approval test for Automotive use. As the BMS in an electronic device, connected to a motor vehicle (either through a B2B/DC-DC Charger going to the chassis side of the motorcaravan), it should like so many other equipment that is fitted to a motorcaravan, carry the E-Mark for road use. Many good manufacturers of Lithium Batteries (Sterling-Power and Victron as an example) carry this mark. Thank you Nick I like lithium its just that my m/h was designed for 12v lead acid and as I've oft said I wouldn't touch lithium because of the cost and the problems that can be created. You're a long way from me if I want a proper install! I also dislike statements like this one .... "KS energy batteries have been designed to be a like for like no-nonsense drop in replacement for older AGM, GEL or lead-acid deep cycle leisure batteries. There is no requirement for you to change or modify your existing mains charger and our batteries can be charged directly from the vehicles existing standard fixed voltage 14.4V alternator" On another forum I challenged a DIY installer - his van is still under warranty - about his claimed lithium install cost 1. Battery £499 from Ebay: like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100-AH-LifePo4-Lithium-Battery-Ultra-edge-Leisure-battery-solar-motorhome/392461924572?hash=item5b608db8dc:g:KcAAAOSw-bBdlkI- 2. B2B £90 from Renogy (He also installed a mains charger with lithium setting 3.6A charge current max - that would take 25 hours to fully charge a flat 100Ah battery - and what strain is that putting on such a puny charger?) How can this be so cheap and is it reliable kit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 slowdriver - 2019-11-15 6:45 PM This may be of interest. It is a German owner of a Ducato Panel Van, who with his partner has a thriving YouTube channel. They live in their La Strada EB for considerable periods and much of that off grid, I think. It is in German. Google closed captions and auto translate help very modestly. The title is, according Google Translate: "The truth about lithium battery in the motorhome ?? 3 years of practice experience ?? this is how we built it" However those of you who understand such things may be able to make something of it. I have no technical knowledge but I believe it demonstrates that a lithium set up is significantly different from a conventional one. It's certainly a lot more kit than my recently departed Bilbo's Celex LWB T5 had in it. I didn't watch the entire video in detail but what I found odd is his use of the original (?) CBE 516 charger and a victron charger. He probably mentions why (he talks waaay too much) but I find such videos somewhat boring to watch, I prefer reading. The main point is that the small 100W solar panel doesn't really do much (especially using the crappy CBE regulator), most of their off grid needs are satisfied just by driving for 2h or so, every now and then, as that's all that is required to recharge 100% of battery capacity. Obviously cables need to cope with such currents so don't expect a drop-in replacement to do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowdriver Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 spirou - 2019-11-15 7:39 PM I didn't watch the entire video in detail but what I found odd is his use of the original (?) CBE 516 charger and a victron charger. He probably mentions why (he talks waaay to much) but I find such videos somewhat boring to watch, I prefer reading. The main point is that the small 100W solar panel doesn't really do much (especially using the crappy CBE regulator), most of their off grid needs are satisfied just by driving for 2h or so, every now and then, as that's all that is required to recharge 100% of battery capacity. Obviously cables need to cope with such currents so don't expect a drop in replacement to do the same. Maybe his use of the CBE 516 is because its a system that was installed three years ago? He does talk a lot, but since I do not speak German I don't know if he speaks too much. Not quite the same thing. It rather depends on what he is saying. I think I'll need to learn some German. More to the point I think it is useful for novices such as myself to actually be able to see the amount of kit that is involved. I take your point that if you know what you are talking about reading is a quicker way of consuming information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickVanBitz Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 arthur49 - 2019-11-15 7:07 PM NickVanBitz - 2019-11-15 1:27 PM spirou - 2019-11-15 11:58 AM You just have to read his texts as being written by someone who was tired of marketing BS, working on terrible installations and consulting people who did consider batteries as something that has to work no matter what they subject them to. From that perspective a battery really is just a battery and not a part of a system. …….. and bottom line, there's the problem!! Sadly Lithium is being fitted out there without the customer being properly informed/qualified as to either Lithium is for them, nor the dealer/distributor having the knowledge to fit Lithium, nor the foggiest about the dangers of fitting Lithium. As far as I am aware there is no direct Li replacement unit on the market that is a simple direct swap, you have to know many things: - What factory equipment/wiring is in place? Standard Split-Charging is neither suitable or safe to charge a LiFePO4, unless it has some sort of DC charger built in, - Are they using high output inverters? Some Lithium is limited to maximum output current, so if you have a heavy draw, you may find the battery cuts out, - if fitted with solar, what regulators are being used? Standard Solar regulators aren't suitable, so an MPPT regulator with the correct profile has to be used, - where is the current leisure battery location, bearing in mind of the temperature limitations of some Li?. These are facts that have to be explained to customers every time they are enquiring about an Li installation and all the above (and more pending on van use) needs to be discussed before Li is suggested. Lithium is a massive improvement in Battery technology and has been very beneficial to customers trying to increase battery capacity with a limited payload to the van and wanting the durability the Lithium can offer...……….. when installed correctly!! It is equally important to remember that having an Li installation is more about the timescale of you are motorcaravanning and not when it's fitted to a particular vehicle, as I would be suggesting transferring it from van-to-van. Another slight battery industry oversite in my opinion is also the products that have been fitted (which have an internal BMS) that have not undergone an E-Mark approval test for Automotive use. As the BMS in an electronic device, connected to a motor vehicle (either through a B2B/DC-DC Charger going to the chassis side of the motorcaravan), it should like so many other equipment that is fitted to a motorcaravan, carry the E-Mark for road use. Many good manufacturers of Lithium Batteries (Sterling-Power and Victron as an example) carry this mark. Thank you Nick I like lithium its just that my m/h was designed for 12v lead acid and as I've oft said I wouldn't touch lithium because of the cost and the problems that can be created. You're a long way from me if I want a proper install! I also dislike statements like this one .... "KS energy batteries have been designed to be a like for like no-nonsense drop in replacement for older AGM, GEL or lead-acid deep cycle leisure batteries. There is no requirement for you to change or modify your existing mains charger and our batteries can be charged directly from the vehicles existing standard fixed voltage 14.4V alternator" On another forum I challenged a DIY installer - his van is still under warranty - about his claimed lithium install cost 1. Battery £499 from Ebay: like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100-AH-LifePo4-Lithium-Battery-Ultra-edge-Leisure-battery-solar-motorhome/392461924572?hash=item5b608db8dc:g:KcAAAOSw-bBdlkI- 2. B2B £90 from Renogy (He also installed a mains charger with lithium setting 3.6A charge current max - that would take 25 hours to fully charge a flat 100Ah battery - and what strain is that putting on such a puny charger?) How can this be so cheap and is it reliable kit? Lol it can't be either (lol) . I couldn't agree more with your comments on KS energy's claim of a "drop in" installation of LiFePO4. I have had a dialog running with a well known European manufactuter making the same sort of claims, but when I pulled them up on the alternator charging subject, he said "of course it will need a DC-DC charger, to which my response was "It's not a direct replacement then is it?!". Every one of our customers go through a consultation, to find out so many things such as specs of the van and their 12v power demand/use of high output inverters etc. This year alone has seen a massive increase in rectification work of 3rd party installations with cheap Li going in and damage done to vans, or getting customers come to us after having it fitted and commenting on poor performance. LiFePO4 is wonderful, durable and reliable...………………………………………………………. when installed correctly!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Thank you Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 Perhaps this study will be of interest to anyone looking into lithium. It is an academic paper so not really light evening read but it does offer an interesting overview of current lithium chemistries, their challenges and opportunities https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/12/6/1074/pdf Specifically this table as it relates to cycle life of LFP batteries commonly used in MH. Cycle life* as a function of Depth of Discharge. Depth of Discharge Discharge Cycles (NMC/LiPO4) 100% 300–600 80% 400–900 60% 600–900 40% 1000–3000 20% 2000–9000 10% 6000–15,000 *Useful lifetime defined as 80% energy performance threshold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 Mmmhhh So even at 50% DOD lithium gives say max 1000 cycles. Not that impressive considering the cost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickVanBitz Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 I have a slight concern regarding the paper's findings. What they are missing is the rate of discharge measured in amps, that will effect the SOC of the battery and it's durability. With the paper based on EV's, their rate of amp discharge is significantly higher than that of a leisure battery being discharged by (worse case) an inverter. I.e both Victron and Sterling Power's BMS devices only allow certain max discharge current, whereas EV's are subject to much higher demand from their electric motors therefore the likelihood of reduced life is much higher as you are drawing a very large amount of current by comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 Here's what happens if the install isn't done in a manner to meet your needs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__5aCCZZqDU&feature=emb_logo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Another one of those stories where I was searching for one thing but found something else entirely more interesting: https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/ I will agree with the late Allan Evans that boats and MHs are not the same thing but IMHO this is quite possibly the best and realistic write up on LFP batteries and the many potential problems people can get into when buying into the story of "drop in replacement" lithium that is becoming increasingly popular. It covers many different aspects from battery design, system installations, monitoring, charging to storing etc. In other words, if Allan had substantial experience with LFP, he could have written it. This came just at the time that I've just read a question on a FB group if buying a cheap set on Alibaba would be a good idea to replace aging AGM. This from someone with absolutely no idea whatsoever on electrics. I've also recently heard from the makers of our own van that they've been installing more of them lately as people keep requesting. And that makes me cringe to be honest. As I know that it is very unlikely they've done any serious modifications that would absolutely be required for a good LFP install. And again, not against LFP in general. But it's rarely done right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickVanBitz Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 colin - 2019-12-14 10:44 AM Here's what happens if the install isn't done in a manner to meet your needs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__5aCCZZqDU&feature=emb_logo This video has been pulled apart on various other forums, which is has been identified as the customer given a mixed of miss-information, nor has he has a decent consultation or understood what had been said, as if you watch the video right to the end all the correct mods he carries out will fix all the problems, then reverts to conventional batteries when he carries the modification out!!! Also with the boat mods link, my concerns again refer to non E-Marked LiFEPO4 batteries that haven't been tested for road use application (this is not to be confused with the EC or UN transportation classification - The E Mark is a different testing procedure). The problem with a lot of Li being sold on the market at the moment, is it's really destined for things like Sheppard Huts and off-grid buildings and not to be bumbling down the road and having to deal with vibration and environmental changes. We have always had the attitude of anything electrical should be tested for application to be used on the road and we only fit products that conform to these standards. Secondly (and i'll use Sterling Power's Li as an example), the rating of the unit is the usable power, as typically there is a small amount of AH withheld for the BMS system that isn't taken from the rating on the unit I.e an AL100 truthfully is 127AH and 27AH is held for the BMS. This is down to either the manufacturers/dealers not being truthful about a certain product or it's a misunderstanding which I have witnessed on far too many occasions. As for the AMPS discharge and re-charge ratings, again this is down to receiving a proper consultation from the Manufacturer/Dealer, as one of the many questions WE ask all the time is the customer's expected use including the use of inverters and current specifications of their motorhome. There isn't any battery on the market that I know of that doesn't require any form of consultation, nor is as simple as a drop-in equivalent to a conventional battery...……………………. but if you get the correct advise and fit the correct product, the long term benefits are clearly seen and experienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 NickVanBitz - 2020-01-07 2:37 PM colin - 2019-12-14 10:44 AM Here's what happens if the install isn't done in a manner to meet your needs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__5aCCZZqDU&feature=emb_logo This video has been pulled apart on various other forums, which is has been identified as the customer given a mixed of miss-information, nor has he has a decent consultation or understood what had been said, as if you watch the video right to the end all the correct mods he carries out will fix all the problems, then reverts to conventional batteries when he carries the modification out!!! To be fair to the video producer he seems to be a good DIYer and not a lithium expert. He appears to have swallowed duff advice .... but got his money back. Which takes me back to my points all along: 1. lithium is not a straightforward drop in replacement for lead-acid 2. its not a DIY job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Watched the video now, and one made earlier and for the life of me can't figure out why he's calling a VSR (cyrix battery combiner) a charger. It simply connects two battery banks above a certain voltage. Not even remotely what you'd call a charger. For some reason he also believes this VSR actually regulates charge from a smart alternator among other things. The thing is, Victron has amazing technical documentation and extremely useful community forum, plus a demo mode on the phone app where you can test certain products you don't even have. So he could have learned all this before buying any of the expensive kit that never would have worked correctly. Who and why gave him bad advice I don't know but like I said, he had all the accurate info easily available. Now, if this guy who is sort of handy around the van, falls for such a trick, imagine all those who wouldn't know a mains charger from a fuse box? It will make a lot of battery makers very happy in a few years. They just need to convince people it's not the innapropriate charging system, it's the user who's doing everything wrong and destroying batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kniste Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 If Money is an issue, forget lithium! If weight is being considered then give it a thought! If off grid is being considered then you are in the second thought area. Money is not a big issue for me, I replaced my AGM (2-3 days off grid) with 2 lithiums (10 days to 3 months in Spain with the assistance of a 80watt solar panel in all weathers. Off grid in the UK is difficult a d most people use their motorhomes parked and plugged in. Kniste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickt Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 Not really true about most plug in, I for one never have hook up in the UK and the club I rally with never goes anywhere with hook ups.This is all year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickVanBitz Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 Mickt - 2020-03-01 10:45 PM Not really true about most plug in, I for one never have hook up in the UK and the club I rally with never goes anywhere with hook ups.This is all year. I'm sure though Mickt that your power consumption/use is completely different to that of others. Everyone is different with their power demands, from very low 12v/Gas users like yourself, to people who want the use of Hair Dryers/Microwaves/E-Bike charging. I think the point I am trying to make is that there is an ability to spec a vehicle to a customer's requirements, but it's that consultation stage that is important with installing any product, as it may not be suitable for purpose/end use. You have to look at fitting Lithium as a distance ownership point of view, rather than to look at a one off installation just for the motorhome you own now. I would never dream of leaving a Lithium set-up in the motorhome and would remove it and fit it to the next van you own as based on typical cycle life, the Lithium will be outpacing the cycle life of conventional batteries 10x more (your average standard batteries at 250 cycles vs Lithium at 2500 based on full discharge). Plus you have to understand that whist you can only typically use 50% of the SOC of a traditional battery, a good quality Li can use 80-100% of it's rated output (based on individual manufacturers). This is a big advantage when you need the capacity, but don't have the room or the payload to accommodate the amount of conventional batteries needed for your requirements (average weight of 2x 100ah batteries = 50KG, 100ah Lithium 15KG - based on 100ah of usable power). As most vans now are coming through at 3500kg and DVLA reducing licence category to C type, the difference in weight to available power needed can be very important indeed. These are just a couple of the many advantages with having Lithium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickt Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 My consumption maybe light, no TV, no microwave, no electric byke or hair dryers and heating is blown air. I try get away and just enjoy camping. I think the modern camper is not a real camper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.jpg.7f53342869b50f2b8f2190672182e2f3.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.