Rayjsj Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 Whatever the intentions of this legislation the effect is to dissuade the purchasing of newer cleaner engined vehicles. Stall adoption of new technology ie electric and Hybrid cars, And leave FUD amongst Car and Mototorhome potential purchasers , Is that the intention ? Fear Uncertainty and Doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 This ukmotorhomes.net link summarises the history of motorhome ‘road tax’ https://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-faqs/motorhome-road-tax From 1 August 2013, for motorhomes having a maximum gross weight not exceeding 3500kg, if the motorhome’s final-stage Certificate of Conformity (CoC) carried a CO2 emissions figure, the vehicle should have been registered in the graduated VED classes. However, since the final-stage CoC of up-to-3500kg motorhomes did not carry a CO2 figure, those vehicles continued to be registered in the PLG taxation class. (The notable exception to this was VW’s “California” campervan where buyers have, since 1/8/2013, being paying graduated VED rates.) The link suggests that, from 1 April 2017, the 3500kg threshold still applied, but I’m wary that was so. It’s academic really as motorhome final-stage CoCs generally continued to omit a CO2 figure and, consequently, they continued to be registered in the PLG or PHGV taxation classes. (VW “California” buyers would have been hit by the new £40k price factor, though.) What has now happened is that the final-stage CoC of all motorhomes (irrespective of their maximum gross weight) in future must carry a CO2 figure, allowing the DVLA rules that came into force on 1 April 2017 to be applied to motorhomes much more widely. There’s nothing ’new’ about what is been complained bitterly about - in 2017 the potential for graduated VED to be applied to motorhomes generally was plain, and it is an event external to the UK (the implementaion of the WLTP/RDE regulations) that will permit the DVLA’s 1 April 2017 motorhome-related rules to be brought into play. As I’ve said earlier, rather than the DVLA’s 1 April 2017 rules applying universally to motor caravans in future, the intention (at least for now) appears to be to target only those motorhomes that have a engine compliant to a specific emissions standard (WLTP Euro 6d/2) rather than ignoring the engine and just using the CO2 figure. Motorhomes do not dovetail tidily with the present UK’s graduated VED classes (that were created with cars in mind) and evidently this will allow (at least) some new Mercedes and Iveco based motorhomes to still be registered in the PLG or PHGV VED classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted January 14, 2020 Author Share Posted January 14, 2020 I am pleased to see in this months MM there is a proper attempt to explain the idiosyncrasy of the taxation of different motorhomes. I now know why I was/ am confused by the regulations! I think it is best to delay any new purchase until the dust settles . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 In this article https://www.waltonsummit.co.uk/vehicles/ducato/ the following information is provided: To comply with the new emission standards Fiat launched the Ducato MY20 (Model Year 2020) series 7, Euro 6d-temp. The complete Euro 6d-temp Ducato engine range feature a variable geometry turbocharger, to improve the driving smoothness, making the engines more reactive even at low speed, saving fuel. It adapts its fluid-dynamic behavior to engine speed and driving style to ensure the right supercharging performance at any time. The 7 series comes with a Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) which is an advanced active emissions control technology system. SCR technology alone can achieve nitrogen oxide reductions up to 90%. The New Eco Pack available as standard on both the 160 HP and 180 HP Ducato Euro 6d-temp features enhanced technologies to reduce polluting emissions thanks to its Stop&Start system, Smart alternator, Electronically-controlled fuel pump and its Eco switch. And this website https://www.parkers.co.uk/what-is/what-is-euro6-emissions-standards/ says What about the RDE standard? Current Euro 6 emissions tests are undertaken in laboratory conditions, so Real Driving Emissions (RDE) tests have been introduced to try and ensure the emissions figures advertised by manufacturers are attained in a range of real-life driving conditions. Current Euro 6 emissions tests are undertaken in laboratory conditions, All newly registered cars will be subject to RDE1 tests from the start of September 2019, which will factor in a margin of 2.1 times the NOx limit imposed by Euro 6. Cars that pass an RDE1 will be certified as Euro 6d-temp. As of the beginning of 2021, the margin on NOx emissions will be tightened in the new RDE2 tests, and all complicit new cars will be certified as Euro 6d. It should be noted that any diesel cars that fail to meet the RDE standard will be listed one VED band higher for first year tax than was originally indicated by the Euro 6 test The MMM article (and all the NCC-produced material) uses the “Euro 6d/2” term, whereas everywhere else “Euro 6d-temp” or "Euro 6d” are employed to differentiate between the two ‘6d’ standards. As has been observed earlier in this thread (and stated in the MMM article) some motorcaravan converters will be marketing in the UK for MY2020 motorhomes that have an engine that is compliant with neither the Euro 6d-temp nor the Euro 6d standard. This could be important for people considering buying a motorhome that has a Mercedes-Benz or Iveco base, but otherwise it’s incidental so let’s put this to one side for now. Well over 50% of new motorhomes sold in the UK use a Fiat Ducato base, so let’s focus on Ducatos. For MY2020 (mid-2019 to mid-2020) all of those Ducatos’ diesel engines will have a motor compliant with the Euro 6d-temp standard. (Motorhome converters’ brochures confrm this is the case for their MY2020 Ducato-based models.) So does "Euro 6d/2” (the term used by the NCC and in the MMM article) indicate the Euro 6d-temp emissions standard or the follow-on Euro 6d standard? If Euro 6d/2 = Euro 6d-temp then new MY2020 Ducato-based motorhomes might be expected in the near future to be assigned by the DVLA to the graduated VED classes where the much higher registration charges will apply. But if Euro 6d/2 = Euro 6d then new MY2020 Ducato-based motorhomes will NOT be assigned by the DVLA to the graduated VED classes in the short term, and will continue to be registered in the PLG or PHGV VED classes until Ducato gets Euro-6d powerplants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 Derek Uzzell - 2020-01-15 8:39 AM If Euro 6d/2 = Euro 6d-temp then new MY2020 Ducato-based motorhomes might be expected in the near future to be assigned by the DVLA to the graduated VED classes where the much higher registration charges will apply. But if Euro 6d/2 = Euro 6d then new MY2020 Ducato-based motorhomes will NOT be assigned by the DVLA to the graduated VED classes in the short term, and will continue to be registered in the PLG or PHGV VED classes until Ducato gets Euro-6d powerplants. A poster on another forum confirmed a couple of days ago that he was charged graduated VED on a Wildax PVC based on a new 140PS Ducato with the 9-speed automatic gearbox, which was registered in December 2019. VED was £1815 based on a CO2 value of 218g/km (TC49 non RDE2 rate). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 Interesting... Could you provide a link to that forum posting please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 Derek Uzzell - 2020-01-15 10:40 AM Interesting... Could you provide a link to that forum posting please? https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/new-motor-home-tax.210906/page-3#post-3658622 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 Thanks I'm very doubtful that the DVLA strictly followed its own rules, but I'm not the Wildax owner so I don't care... (How many Valium tablets do you take before posting to the MHFun forum?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 Derek Uzzell - 2020-01-15 11:44 AM Thanks I'm very doubtful that the DVLA strictly followed its own rules, but I'm not the Wildax owner so I don't care... Me too, as the final stage CoC was apparently blank and the CO2 value was taken from the (also submitted) Fiat CoC, but I don't know if this is now a requirement for Euro 6d/temp vehicles? (How many Valium tablets do you take before posting to the MHFun forum?) :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 Derek Uzzell - 2020-01-15 11:44 AM (How many Valium tablets do you take before posting to the MHFun forum?) ...just a tad less than entering Chatterbox here..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapper520 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Close to buying a Sunlight Cliff 600, 2.3L 140bhp, 3300kgs Chasis. List price for basic vehicle just under £37,000. With all had on bits comes between £42,000 and £43,000. One dealer says it qualifies for the higher vehicle tax, the other says it doesn’t. Simple question........who’s right? *-) (Also agree about Chatterbox......only enter with head and body protection, and don’t stick your head up above the parapet!) ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapper520 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Derek Uzzell - 2020-01-20 8:30 AM Your dealer... Cara, Stoke-on-Trent says it doesn’t. South West Motorhomes, Ilminster says it does. I’m either going to get a good deal from one or a bad deal from the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Then if all else is equal, buy from the dealer that says it doesn't, and get a guarantee from them that they will pay the extra duty if they're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Sapper520 Factory-fitted extras count towards the £40,000 threshold. So, if add-on bits are fitted at the factory where a motorhome is built, the cost of the add-on bits will be added to the vehicle’s basic list-price. If the dealer sells you a basic motorhome and then adds the ‘bits’ later, the cost of the bits won’t count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapper520 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Deneb - 2020-01-20 8:38 AM Then if all else is equal, buy from the dealer that says it doesn't, and get a guarantee from them that they will pay the extra duty if they're wrong. Sorry, but I’d prefer to know the answer before I sign the dotted line. If anything was to happen (Dealer going bust / change of ownership) I don’t want to end up with a tax bill. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapper520 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Derek Uzzell - 2020-01-20 8:42 AM Sapper520 Factory-fitted extras count towards the £40,000 threshold. So, if add-on bits are fitted at the factory where a motorhome is built, the cost of the add-on bits will be added to the vehicle’s basic list-price. If the dealer sells you a basic motorhome and then adds the ‘bits’ later, the cost of the bits won’t count. A lot of the bits can only be put on at the factory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 What is a list price? ...The DVLA defines list price as “the list price of the vehicle published by the manufacturer, with any options added before the vehicle is first registered”. and Vehicles with a list price of more than £40,000 You have to pay an extra £320 a year if you have a car or motorhome with a ‘list price’ (the published price before any discounts) of more than £40,000 and What is list price? The DVLA will use the list price or notional price provided at first registration to calculate the rate of VED. The list price of the vehicle is the price published b the vehicle’s manufacturer plus any extras fitted by the manufacturer. It also includes VAT, delivery charges and pre-delivery inspection charges. It’s important to note that the list price may not be the price paid for the vehicle, as it’s the price quoted before any discounts or incentives. It’s also the price of the vehicle on the day before it’s first registered, not the price when the vehicle was ordered. When a vehicle does not have a list price the notional price must be provided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 The problem is that you pay the VED for the next five years, not the dealer. Whatever they say. The DVLA have now specifically mentioned motorhomes in their advice. https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Billggski - 2020-01-20 8:57 AM The problem is that you pay the VED for the next five years, not the dealer. Whatever they say. The DVLA have now specifically mentioned motorhomes in their advice. https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables So you'd need to factor that into negotiations with the dealer who says that the increased tax isn't payable, and whether he'd cough up an amount equal to the additional tax over that period if he's wrong. That web page has been unchanged since 2017. It's nothing new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapper520 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Billggski - 2020-01-20 8:57 AM The problem is that you pay the VED for the next five years, not the dealer. Whatever they say. The DVLA have now specifically mentioned motorhomes in their advice. https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables Thanks, still no clearer. Tried to find the van / engine......nothing listed for the new 6.2 engines. In relation to list pricing, it doesn’t mention add-on’s being included. Just list price before any discounts or offers. Sorry guys, Still no clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapper520 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Deneb - 2020-01-20 9:31 AM Billggski - 2020-01-20 8:57 AM The problem is that you pay the VED for the next five years, not the dealer. Whatever they say. The DVLA have now specifically mentioned motorhomes in their advice. https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables So you'd need to factor that into negotiations with the dealer who says that the increased tax isn't payable, and whether he'd cough up an amount equal to the additional tax over that period if he's wrong. That web page has been unchanged since 2017. It's nothing new. It means one dealer is giving me a good deal and the other a bad.......which one is which? :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Sapper520 The Sunlight price-list for their 2020 model-year campervans can be downloaded from here https://www.sunlight.de/en/downloads/ The price of a Cliff 600 model in basic form is quoted as £36,649 with the footnote that this includes "VAT and 2.500 GBP OTR Charges (to be confirmed)” Opting for the 140bhp motor adds £829, (price now rises to £37,478) and also opting for the 9-speed automatic transmission (£2739) would further increase the price to £40217 and, consequently, result in the £40k threshold being crossed. In fact, it’s clear from the Sunlight price-list that there would be little difficulty pushing a Cliff 600’s basic £36,649 to the "between £42,000 and £43,000” price you mentioned earlier by adding ‘Packages’ or options that many buyers might consider essential. It seems to me that your dealer-related ‘confusion’ does not revolve around the Cliff 600’s price as such, but whether or not the DVLA would assign the vehicle to a VED graduated emissions class when it was UK-registered. If the DVLA did do this, graduated emissions VED would be charged based on the campervan’s CO2 figure and, if its price exceeded £40k, an extra charge would be made. But if the DVLA did NOT assign the vehicle to a VED graduated emissions class when it was UK-registered, it would end up in the PLG class and its price would be irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapper520 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Just been on the phone to the DVLA. Although the guy tried to be as helpful as he could, he still couldn’t give me a firm answer. Basically, this is because I didn’t have a reg number for the vehicle and I didn’t know it’s emissions. He couldn’t help with the emission as I didn’t have the reg number! Best he could work out (educated guess)...........Base van plus any FACTORY fitted extras taking it above £40k is the list price. Even if you do a deal on the extras, it’s the list prices that are taken into consideration. Even if you keep it below £40k you’ll be hit with the higher emissions as WE think the van is too high. He had no access to information in relation to the new 2020 6/2 engines.........what nonsense. The way I see it, if a dealer registers the vehicle at basic list price, doesn’t inform the DVLA that it’s got any factory fitted extras, and the emissions are in a lower bracket (don’t know if this is the case as I don’t know them!), then they can get away with the lower tax. Do dealers have to tell DVLA how much someone pays for the van? I’ll be having Factory fitted extras and dealer ones. Do they go into such detail when telling the DVLA? I’m just going to take the deal with tax included, that way there’s no comeback on me, although I will be out of pocket if I’m wrong. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapper520 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Link doesn’t work Derek. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 I always check links before I submit a posting and the TinyURL link worked OK when I checked. However, when I edited my posting later (to correct typographical errors) I noticed that the link failed to work properly. I created a new TinyURL link and again checked that it worked OK before resubmitting the posting but, noticing your comment, I’ve rechecked and - sure enough - the replacement link failed too. I’m not sure where the problem lies, but I’ve now put a link in the posting that targets the Sunlight downloads webpage from which the Camper Van price-list can be downloaded. According to the DVLA, a critical requirement for a motorhome to be assigned to the VED graduated-emissions classes is that the motorhome’s FINAL-STAGE Certificate of Conformity (CoC) has a CO2 value on it - and, in your case, that should mean the CoC that Sunlight produces, not the CoC produced by Fiat for the Ducato-base. And, for the DVLA to know whether the Sunlight CoC has a CO2 value on it and, if so, what that value is, the DVLA will need to see that CoC. The DVLA aren’t daft you know, though I'm not in the least surprised that the person you spoke to could not give you a firm answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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