Could Remoaners Get Any Sicker ...

[Brian Kirby]

Birdbrain - 2020-03-24 6:18 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-03-24 12:39 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2020-03-24 10:59 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-03-20 7:10 PM...………………………

1 Nothing to explain sweet cheeks ...

2 You are a raving Remoaner like Barry who would stop at nothing no matter how low to stop Brexit ...

3 You applaud a fellow hater for saying halt or scrap Brexit or maybe put it on a 3 year extension delay... 4 We are told by Government if we pull together in 12 weeks well beat the China Virus but you and another hater want to stop Brexit full stop??? ….

5 Explains all princess ... Hate on

1 That is what I said, if you stop to think about it.

 

2 Raving? Do show my raving. Stop at nothing no matter how low? Where, please? Evidence?

 

3 Applaud? Where? Of all possible times to be involved in negotiating a future relationship, now is not the time. There is a three year window within the withdrawal agreement, and it would make far more sense to deal, as a first priority, with Covid-19, and then, when everyone is able to focus fully on the task in hand, get back to the final Brexit negotiations. That is logical, common, sense. If you can't see that, you must ask yourself why.

 

4 We will not "beat" Covid-19 in twelve weeks. Even Boris is now slowly beginning to grasp that little truth, which has been blindingly obvious since the first few cases arrived in Europe. It has a rate of spread that puts three months out of contention. The epidemiologists are advising much nearer 12 months, with the virus becoming endemic unless or until a vaccine is available. Stop Brexit? It seems to have escaped your attention that Brexit took place on 31 December 2019. If you messed that, what else have you missed?

 

5 As you can see, although your selective mix of half-understood fact and fake news may explain all to you, it explains nothing to others. Have another go, but try to use a few established facts, stay off twitter, and don't rely at all on what is randomly circulating in your poor, befuddled, noddle. :-D

 

Why must we stop just Brexit talks and nothing else Government does , thats what your saying isnt it as you havent asked for any other Government departments to be shut down in this thread just Brexit ??? ... We must have many departments that could be shut down during this crisis yet you are only asking for one to close so that kind of says it all Brian doesnt it ??? ... To make your point valid I'd like to know how you know just how many from Government are currently involved in Brexit negotiations and just what they could do if they walked away from that and focused on the China Virus , what exactly would they do ??? ... "established facts" will do princess not your opinion

 

Brian ???

To your question, no, it isn't what I'm saying, as a moments reflection could have told you. Due to that lack of reflection, the rest of your "reply" is your usual, time wasting, nonsense. Just think a bit.

 

You don't need numbers, just the application of a smidgen of practical thought.

 

Brexit invades almost every facet of our economy, and that is now under serious threat from the economic impact of the measures government is belatedly taking to try to ward off its health and social impact.

 

Given two such serious problems to confront, one, or other, is going to suffer from trying to keep too many balls in the air at once. Which do you think it is preferable to prioritise? It answers itself doesn't it, if you just think about it?

[Brian Kirby]

Brian Kirby - 2020-03-24 10:59 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-03-20 7:10 PM...………………………

1 Nothing to explain sweet cheeks ...

2 You are a raving Remoaner like Barry who would stop at nothing no matter how low to stop Brexit ...

3 You applaud a fellow hater for saying halt or scrap Brexit or maybe put it on a 3 year extension delay... 4 We are told by Government if we pull together in 12 weeks well beat the China Virus but you and another hater want to stop Brexit full stop??? ….

5 Explains all princess ... Hate on

1 That is what I said, if you stop to think about it.

 

2 Raving? Do show my raving. Stop at nothing no matter how low? Where, please? Evidence?

 

3 Applaud? Where? Of all possible times to be involved in negotiating a future relationship, now is not the time. There is a three year window within the withdrawal agreement, and it would make far more sense to deal, as a first priority, with Covid-19, and then, when everyone is able to focus fully on the task in hand, get back to the final Brexit negotiations. That is logical, common, sense. If you can't see that, you must ask yourself why.

 

4 We will not "beat" Covid-19 in twelve weeks. Even Boris is now slowly beginning to grasp that little truth, which has been blindingly obvious since the first few cases arrived in Europe. It has a rate of spread that puts three months out of contention. The epidemiologists are advising much nearer 12 months, with the virus becoming endemic unless or until a vaccine is available. Stop Brexit? It seems to have escaped your attention that Brexit took place on 31 December 2019. If you messed that, what else have you missed?

 

5 As you can see, although your selective mix of half-understood fact and fake news may explain all to you, it explains nothing to others. Have another go, but try to use a few established facts, stay off twitter, and don't rely at all on what is randomly circulating in your poor, befuddled, noddle. :-D

Antony ???

[Birdbrain]

Brian Kirby - 2020-03-24 6:54 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2020-03-24 10:59 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-03-20 7:10 PM...………………………

1 Nothing to explain sweet cheeks ...

2 You are a raving Remoaner like Barry who would stop at nothing no matter how low to stop Brexit ...

3 You applaud a fellow hater for saying halt or scrap Brexit or maybe put it on a 3 year extension delay... 4 We are told by Government if we pull together in 12 weeks well beat the China Virus but you and another hater want to stop Brexit full stop??? ….

5 Explains all princess ... Hate on

1 That is what I said, if you stop to think about it.

 

2 Raving? Do show my raving. Stop at nothing no matter how low? Where, please? Evidence?

 

3 Applaud? Where? Of all possible times to be involved in negotiating a future relationship, now is not the time. There is a three year window within the withdrawal agreement, and it would make far more sense to deal, as a first priority, with Covid-19, and then, when everyone is able to focus fully on the task in hand, get back to the final Brexit negotiations. That is logical, common, sense. If you can't see that, you must ask yourself why.

 

4 We will not "beat" Covid-19 in twelve weeks. Even Boris is now slowly beginning to grasp that little truth, which has been blindingly obvious since the first few cases arrived in Europe. It has a rate of spread that puts three months out of contention. The epidemiologists are advising much nearer 12 months, with the virus becoming endemic unless or until a vaccine is available. Stop Brexit? It seems to have escaped your attention that Brexit took place on 31 December 2019. If you messed that, what else have you missed?

 

5 As you can see, although your selective mix of half-understood fact and fake news may explain all to you, it explains nothing to others. Have another go, but try to use a few established facts, stay off twitter, and don't rely at all on what is randomly circulating in your poor, befuddled, noddle. :-D

Antony ???

 

Speaks volumes

[Brian Kirby]

Nicepix - 2020-03-24 3:01 PM

 

Brian,

 

1. The EU impose rules and regulations on member countries. Those countries did not ask the EU to abandon Schengen, they acted unilaterally.

 

2. Please provide proof of this exodus that you claim has already happened.

 

3. The UK is no longer a manufacturing country and so exports less then it imports. It is mostly service based. That is why the UK is possibly the only country in the EU that can walk away and prosper. I put Spain when I meant Italy. Mental block. All those three countries benefit greatly from the EU's protectionist policies. The UK, because of the trade deficit suffers the most, France is not far behind despite its agricultural protections. I am surprised that the 'quality press' that you read hasn't covered that.

 

4. The trump cards, as in fisheries and not remaining aligned to EU rules along with the UK's purchasing power should entail that the deal will be in its favour. The EU are scared that without the alignment the UK can and will be able to purchase items that have not been submitted to the EU for type approval or conformity of regulations including many Japanese and Korean electrical items & also Nth African fruit and veg'. The UK is a currently major market for EU goods and they would rather keep it that way.

 

A good deal means the UK will have the €6 billion it currently gives to the EU plus keeps all the import duties which it levies and because it will no longer be subject to the EU trade laws, it can negotiate deals to import products from outside the EU more cheaply and therefore reduce prices to the consumer. Its fisheries can be used to bring in more revenue by licensing catch quotas to foreign boats.

 

Brexit is the best thing for the UK's future and once they drop the ECHR obligation it will be better able to control its immigration policy and protect the public from terrorism.

1 Sorry, but no it doesn't. The EU is a confederation of independent states I which what rules and regulations are imposed, are first negotiated between, and then democratically voted force, by both the government ministers and the elected MEPs of all member states. If anything is imposed on states, it will be because at some previous point in the evolution of those rules and regulations they failed to carry an argument against those provisions. In just the same way that your constituency might object to measures that affect it, but might find itself obliged to observe if parliament so decrees.

 

2 Bit boring, but first, to avoid your distortion, here is your statement to which I responded: "I don't know where you get your ideas about losing industries and workers out of the country from, but I would like to see some evidence to support the views." In responding I have not claimed that these losses have already taken place, and neither did you statement imply that.

 

So, on the basis of your original statement, those firms contemplating transferring jobs, production capability, or head office functions, in whole or in part, from the UK, are (taken from the Independent):

 

Airbus The aerospace group employs 14,000 people in Britain, including 6,000 jobs at its main wings factory at Broughton in North Wales and 3,000 at Filton, near Bristol, where wings are designed.

Chief executive Tom Enders warned in January that the firm could be forced to start shutting down UK plants and attacked Theresa’s May’s government for the prevailing state of chaos, saying: “It is a disgrace that, more than two years after the result of the 2016 referendum, businesses are still unable to plan properly for the future.”

 

Aviva Britain’s second-largest insurer announced in February it will move £7.8bn worth of assets to Ireland as it prepares for Brexit.

 

Bank of America Merrill Lynch The US lender is spending $400m (£306m) to move staff out of London, with Paris its preferred new European headquarters.

The bank announced the merger of its UK and Irish subsidiaries in May last year, transferring 125 jobs to Dublin. Even if the UK decided not to leave the EU, Dublin will remain BAML's European headquarters, the bank's chairman said.

 

Barclays The British bank has moved £166bn of its clients' assets to the Irish capital, stating that it could not wait any longer to implement Brexit contingency plans.

The lender has said it expects around 150-200 of its 50,000 staff to move, mostly to Dublin.

 

Credit Suisse The giant Swiss bank is reported to have moved about 250 bankers from London to other European financial hubs.

 

Dyson Dyson is to relocate his company’s headquarters from Malmesbury in Wiltshire to Singapore.

 

Ford The US car maker warned in February that a no-deal Brexit would be “catastrophic” for its business and put jobs at risk at its Bridgend, Dagenham and Halewood manufacturing plants.

Ford said it would do “whatever is necessary” to safeguard its interests.

The company had already said a month earlier it would cut jobs in the UK as a result of rehousing two divisions, Ford UK and Ford Credit, under one roof in Dunton, Essex. Around 370 job cuts are planned for Ford's Bridgend engine factory as part of broader plans to boost profits in Europe.

 

Goldman Sachs Goldman said a year ago that it was reaching the point of its Brexit contingency planning where it would start making irreversible business decisions but an exact figure on how many people it has moved to the Continent remains elusive.

 

Honda The Japanese car giant confirmed in May it will close its manufacturing plant in Swindon in 2021, culling 3,500 jobs.

 

Jaguar Land Rover The UK’s biggest car manufacturer, owned by Indian conglomerate Tata, announced in January that it would be cutting 4,500 jobs, the majority falling in the UK, to make £2.5bn of cost savings. Plummeting demand for diesel cars and a slowdown in China are at the root of JLR's problems.

JLR currently employs 44,000 workers in the UK at plants in Halewood on Merseyside and Solihull, Castle Bromwich and Wolverhampton in the West Midlands and also said it planned to halt production for a week in April “due to potential Brexit disruption”.

 

Both BMW and Toyota have made similar pledges for the same reason.

 

JPMorgan Chase The American bank said in September its Brexit plans were “past the point of no return” and as many as 4,000 of its 16,000 UK staff could move in the event of no-deal being agreed between the UK and the EU.

 

Lloyds of London Lloyd’s is working on transferring all European Economic Area (EEA) business to its new Brussels subsidiary before the end of 2020.

 

Michelin The tyre manufacturer announced in November 2018 it would close its Dundee factory in Scotland, which employs 845, people by 2020, citing a decline in demand for its products and competition from Asia rather than Brexit.

 

MoneyGram US money transfer giant Moneygram has moved its European headquarters from London to Brussels.

 

Nissan The Japanese car company announced in early February it would no longer be making its new X-Trail SUV at its Sunderland factory, relocating manufacturing to Kyushu in Japan instead.

 

Panasonic The Japanese consumer electronics giant announced last August it would be moving its European headquarters from London to Amsterdam in the Netherlands to avoid potential tax issues linked to Brexit.

 

P&O All P&O ships operating in the English Channel will be under the Cypriot flag, instead of the British flag to keep tax arrangements in the EU and reduce the risk of extra inspections and delays.

 

Philips Philips is closing its only UK factory, at Glemsford in Suffolk. All operations and 430 jobs will transfer to the Netherlands.

 

Rolls-Royce The engine maker announced 4,600 job cuts at its Derby plant by 2020, a move it said would help save around £400m a year.

 

Schaeffler Automotive and industrial supplier Schaeffler is to close two sites in the UK, with “uncertainty” surrounding Brexit given as one factor behind the decision.

 

Sony Like Panasonic, the Japanese electronics giant announced in January it is moving its European headquarters from London to Amsterdam in the Netherlands

 

Toyota Toyota slashed its profit forecast for 2019 and warned that it will be impossible to avoid the harmful effects of a no-deal Brexit.

“We cannot avoid the negative impact no matter how much we prepare beforehand if Britain leaves the EU with no deal,” the firm’s senior managing officer Masayoshi Shirayanagi said in February.

 

UBS Switzerland's biggest bank chose Frankfurt as the base for its EU operations after Brexit.

 

These moves don't come with a "Because of Brexit" sticker on them (nor will they: all the firms will wish to maintain some trade with the UK, so slamming the door on the way out wouldn't be good for that), but they were all announced post the referendum, and most cite "uncertainties" as the reason they are under consideration. For the greater art, those uncertainties stem from Brexit, or have been exacerbated by Brexit.

 

3 True, but you were looking for manufacturing jobs. That was my point. The financial services sector may well benefit, but it is the other sectors that provide most folk with jobs. But, how does it make sense to turn away from a tariff free market of 450 million because we can't sell them enough? How will that help us sell the rest of the world more? Our problem (and it is our problem) is that we don't make what others want, at an attractive price, in sufficient quantity. That is the product of our poor productivity, which has naught to do with the EU, and everything to do with the UK.

 

4 So the benefit to leaving that the fishing industry are looking for, which is more UK fish caught by them to sell, will in fact be the UK treasury benefitting from selling off what they see as their quotas will be sold to foreign boats? Has anyone told them? The rest is to import goods made to lower standards elsewhere, and sell them to the EU? And you think they'll agree to that? I'm afraid I don't, and I expect to be proved right.

 

Schengen is not an EU treaty, it is wider, and the rules for its operation lie with its signatories. The ECHR is not an EU court, it pre-dates, if memory serves, the formation of the EEC.

[Barryd999]

The way I see it now is we have to forget most of the old arguments about Brexit and accept that our world has already changed for ever.

 

Nobody knows how we will all come out the other side of this and how each country will fair. One things for sure Covid 19 and the fallout from that will be far from over when our time comes to officially leave proper. Who really wants our PM and his team working on that then? A three year extension of transition would make more sense. Business as usual on trade and customs until we work out how the land lies in the aftermath of this. I just think its impossible otherwise now.

 

Think of this though, if we come out of all this much worse off than other countries in the EU because our tactics failed might not our feelings towards being in the bloc change? We might actually need them more than they need us then. Could go the other way of course. We could come out of it smelling of roses and decide Brexit is now the best answer but why storm ahead now? Does it not make more sense to find out what our best options are once this is over and allow our leaders to dedicate their time to saving lives, our economy and making sure people are paid, fed and watered.

[Birdbrain]

Barryd999 - 2020-03-25 5:27 AM

 

The way I see it now is we have to forget most of the old arguments about Brexit and accept that our world has already changed for ever.

 

Nobody knows how we will all come out the other side of this and how each country will fair. One things for sure Covid 19 and the fallout from that will be far from over when our time comes to officially leave proper. Who really wants our PM and his team working on that then? A three year extension of transition would make more sense. Business as usual on trade and customs until we work out how the land lies in the aftermath of this. I just think its impossible otherwise now.

 

Think of this though, if we come out of all this much worse off than other countries in the EU because our tactics failed might not our feelings towards being in the bloc change? We might actually need them more than they need us then. Could go the other way of course. We could come out of it smelling of roses and decide Brexit is now the best answer but why storm ahead now? Does it not make more sense to find out what our best options are once this is over and allow our leaders to dedicate their time to saving lives, our economy and making sure people are paid, fed and watered.

 

Do tell how further uncertainty for 3 years is going to help anyone in business ??? We've already blamed Brexit uncertainty on much havent we so how is continuing that helping now or when we beat the China Virus ??? I think what you really mean but prolly feel uncomfortable saying is that the China Virus should stop Brexit permanently , you have said it elsewhere havent ya ??? China Virus seems to serve a purpose for you with your ongoing Brexit obsession , not content with claims of drug shortage scares and chlorinated chicken and food shortages you now have China Virus ... By the way "our PM" who you normally mock for working on anything and call a liar etc etc probably isnt "working" on Brexit is he , his team will be thats dedicated to it but I think its safe to say the China Virus is prolly our PMs main focus , strange how your concerned about what Boris is working on when you have called him all those things though I have to say

[Nicepix]

Brian, obviously you have more time on your hands than I so I will keep my reply brief. The post I was replying to had links supposedly answering the point about firms leaving the UK because of Brexit. The link was actually a list of firms who were re-locating for a myriad of reasons, some of which were because of Brexit. Others weren't. Businesses move for a variety of reasons and at the moment Ireland is offering some very tasty tax incentives to new businesses or those existing businesses who re-locate there. I am sure that there will be companies who see a post Brexit UK as a good place to do business.

 

Let us stick to facts; Brexit hasn't been completed yet so the doom-mongering has yet to be proven. What is a known fact is that after 31st December as it stands the UK will no longer have to pay its annual fee to the EU nor will UK consumers have to contribute to the EU coffers 80% of any import duties and 0.3% of any VAT. That figure has been estimated at almost €40 billion. You sill find reference to it in the EU budget projections.

 

Another fact is that the UK will no longer have to obey laws and rules imposed by Brussels. I don't know if you are aware of how these laws come about but they are instigated by policy leaders within the EU and then put out to a vote by MEPs. There are records of how many of these proposals the UK voted against only to see them imposed. As in the UK Parliament there are ways to influence MPs to vote however the Government wants. Next year the UK will not have to adopt any of those EU laws but may choose to bring them into UK law if it suits. If you haven't already, read the EU publication; Three visions, one direction published a couple of years ago. It shows the direction the EU wishes to move; every member state adopting the € whether they want to or not, an EU army and centralised tax collections and an EU finance minister over riding member states own Chancellor's policiies. Frightening!

 

Similarly the UK will not be subservient to EU rules and laws so that it can decide its own immigration policy. That might come in useful when Turkey eventually run out of patience and release the 3.6 million refugees they are currently holding back.

 

 

[Barryd999]

Birdbrain - 2020-03-25 6:44 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-03-25 5:27 AM

 

The way I see it now is we have to forget most of the old arguments about Brexit and accept that our world has already changed for ever.

 

Nobody knows how we will all come out the other side of this and how each country will fair. One things for sure Covid 19 and the fallout from that will be far from over when our time comes to officially leave proper. Who really wants our PM and his team working on that then? A three year extension of transition would make more sense. Business as usual on trade and customs until we work out how the land lies in the aftermath of this. I just think its impossible otherwise now.

 

Think of this though, if we come out of all this much worse off than other countries in the EU because our tactics failed might not our feelings towards being in the bloc change? We might actually need them more than they need us then. Could go the other way of course. We could come out of it smelling of roses and decide Brexit is now the best answer but why storm ahead now? Does it not make more sense to find out what our best options are once this is over and allow our leaders to dedicate their time to saving lives, our economy and making sure people are paid, fed and watered.

 

Do tell how further uncertainty for 3 years is going to help anyone in business ??? We've already blamed Brexit uncertainty on much havent we so how is continuing that helping now or when we beat the China Virus ??? I think what you really mean but prolly feel uncomfortable saying is that the China Virus should stop Brexit permanently , you have said it elsewhere havent ya ??? China Virus seems to serve a purpose for you with your ongoing Brexit obsession , not content with claims of drug shortage scares and chlorinated chicken and food shortages you now have China Virus ... By the way "our PM" who you normally mock for working on anything and call a liar etc etc probably isnt "working" on Brexit is he , his team will be thats dedicated to it but I think its safe to say the China Virus is prolly our PMs main focus , strange how your concerned about what Boris is working on when you have called him all those things though I have to say

 

Now Mr Birdbrain you are being a silly billy aren't you? Three years further status quo will offer business certainty while we try and get through the biggest health and economic crisis the world has probably ever faced. If you had read my reasoned post properly you would realise that its not some devious plan to steal away your beloved Brexit but simply to put it to one side while we deal with much more important matters like protecting millions of lives and securing the economy as best we can. The short transition period most people thought was way too short anyway to agree a proper extensive trade deal but now its just pie in the sky and should we go ahead it will almost certainly be on a no deal basis. Business would not have thanked you for that before but they certainly wont now, imagine the effects it will have while we are in the middle of this sh1tstorm.

 

I have no obsession with Brexit anymore. It was a ridiculous notion and it seems even more farcical now under the current circumstances. It will indeed require massive resources from both sides of the channel and yes right up to Prime Ministerial and presidential level. Who the feck has time for that now? Its just not that important. Why would you fiddle while Rome burns?

[Birdbrain]

Barryd999 - 2020-03-25 1:54 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-03-25 6:44 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-03-25 5:27 AM

 

The way I see it now is we have to forget most of the old arguments about Brexit and accept that our world has already changed for ever.

 

Nobody knows how we will all come out the other side of this and how each country will fair. One things for sure Covid 19 and the fallout from that will be far from over when our time comes to officially leave proper. Who really wants our PM and his team working on that then? A three year extension of transition would make more sense. Business as usual on trade and customs until we work out how the land lies in the aftermath of this. I just think its impossible otherwise now.

 

Think of this though, if we come out of all this much worse off than other countries in the EU because our tactics failed might not our feelings towards being in the bloc change? We might actually need them more than they need us then. Could go the other way of course. We could come out of it smelling of roses and decide Brexit is now the best answer but why storm ahead now? Does it not make more sense to find out what our best options are once this is over and allow our leaders to dedicate their time to saving lives, our economy and making sure people are paid, fed and watered.

 

Do tell how further uncertainty for 3 years is going to help anyone in business ??? We've already blamed Brexit uncertainty on much havent we so how is continuing that helping now or when we beat the China Virus ??? I think what you really mean but prolly feel uncomfortable saying is that the China Virus should stop Brexit permanently , you have said it elsewhere havent ya ??? China Virus seems to serve a purpose for you with your ongoing Brexit obsession , not content with claims of drug shortage scares and chlorinated chicken and food shortages you now have China Virus ... By the way "our PM" who you normally mock for working on anything and call a liar etc etc probably isnt "working" on Brexit is he , his team will be thats dedicated to it but I think its safe to say the China Virus is prolly our PMs main focus , strange how your concerned about what Boris is working on when you have called him all those things though I have to say

 

Now Mr Birdbrain you are being a silly billy aren't you? Three years further status quo will offer business certainty while we try and get through the biggest health and economic crisis the world has probably ever faced. If you had read my reasoned post properly you would realise that its not some devious plan to steal away your beloved Brexit but simply to put it to one side while we deal with much more important matters like protecting millions of lives and securing the economy as best we can. The short transition period most people thought was way too short anyway to agree a proper extensive trade deal but now its just pie in the sky and should we go ahead it will almost certainly be on a no deal basis. Business would not have thanked you for that before but they certainly wont now, imagine the effects it will have while we are in the middle of this sh1tstorm.

 

I have no obsession with Brexit anymore. It was a ridiculous notion and it seems even more farcical now under the current circumstances. It will indeed require massive resources from both sides of the channel and yes right up to Prime Ministerial and presidential level. Who the feck has time for that now? Its just not that important. Why would you fiddle while Rome burns?

 

Apologies ... Your "reasoned post" is just that ... 3 more years of the uncertainty we've just been through with Brexit end game will attract many foreign investors im sure ... Im still slightly confused why you say Brexit delay on here yet call for Brexit to be stopped on another station ... You'll explain im sure

[Barryd999]

Birdbrain - 2020-03-25 6:09 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-03-25 1:54 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-03-25 6:44 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-03-25 5:27 AM

 

The way I see it now is we have to forget most of the old arguments about Brexit and accept that our world has already changed for ever.

 

Nobody knows how we will all come out the other side of this and how each country will fair. One things for sure Covid 19 and the fallout from that will be far from over when our time comes to officially leave proper. Who really wants our PM and his team working on that then? A three year extension of transition would make more sense. Business as usual on trade and customs until we work out how the land lies in the aftermath of this. I just think its impossible otherwise now.

 

Think of this though, if we come out of all this much worse off than other countries in the EU because our tactics failed might not our feelings towards being in the bloc change? We might actually need them more than they need us then. Could go the other way of course. We could come out of it smelling of roses and decide Brexit is now the best answer but why storm ahead now? Does it not make more sense to find out what our best options are once this is over and allow our leaders to dedicate their time to saving lives, our economy and making sure people are paid, fed and watered.

 

Do tell how further uncertainty for 3 years is going to help anyone in business ??? We've already blamed Brexit uncertainty on much havent we so how is continuing that helping now or when we beat the China Virus ??? I think what you really mean but prolly feel uncomfortable saying is that the China Virus should stop Brexit permanently , you have said it elsewhere havent ya ??? China Virus seems to serve a purpose for you with your ongoing Brexit obsession , not content with claims of drug shortage scares and chlorinated chicken and food shortages you now have China Virus ... By the way "our PM" who you normally mock for working on anything and call a liar etc etc probably isnt "working" on Brexit is he , his team will be thats dedicated to it but I think its safe to say the China Virus is prolly our PMs main focus , strange how your concerned about what Boris is working on when you have called him all those things though I have to say

 

Now Mr Birdbrain you are being a silly billy aren't you? Three years further status quo will offer business certainty while we try and get through the biggest health and economic crisis the world has probably ever faced. If you had read my reasoned post properly you would realise that its not some devious plan to steal away your beloved Brexit but simply to put it to one side while we deal with much more important matters like protecting millions of lives and securing the economy as best we can. The short transition period most people thought was way too short anyway to agree a proper extensive trade deal but now its just pie in the sky and should we go ahead it will almost certainly be on a no deal basis. Business would not have thanked you for that before but they certainly wont now, imagine the effects it will have while we are in the middle of this sh1tstorm.

 

I have no obsession with Brexit anymore. It was a ridiculous notion and it seems even more farcical now under the current circumstances. It will indeed require massive resources from both sides of the channel and yes right up to Prime Ministerial and presidential level. Who the feck has time for that now? Its just not that important. Why would you fiddle while Rome burns?

 

Apologies ... Your "reasoned post" is just that ... 3 more years of the uncertainty we've just been through with Brexit end game will attract many foreign investors im sure ... Im still slightly confused why you say Brexit delay on here yet call for Brexit to be stopped on another station ... You'll explain im sure

 

I think you are mistaken. My view above is the same where ever I may have posted it. I think I have also stated that when we come out of the other side of all this that it could be that Brexit may make sense but it could equally make even less sense. The thing is we just do not know how each country will fair and which trading blocs etc, will be in better fettle than others a year down the line. We should keep our options open which means extending our transition.

 

 

[Birdbrain]

Barryd999 - 2020-03-26 11:24 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-03-25 6:09 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-03-25 1:54 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-03-25 6:44 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-03-25 5:27 AM

 

The way I see it now is we have to forget most of the old arguments about Brexit and accept that our world has already changed for ever.

 

Nobody knows how we will all come out the other side of this and how each country will fair. One things for sure Covid 19 and the fallout from that will be far from over when our time comes to officially leave proper. Who really wants our PM and his team working on that then? A three year extension of transition would make more sense. Business as usual on trade and customs until we work out how the land lies in the aftermath of this. I just think its impossible otherwise now.

 

Think of this though, if we come out of all this much worse off than other countries in the EU because our tactics failed might not our feelings towards being in the bloc change? We might actually need them more than they need us then. Could go the other way of course. We could come out of it smelling of roses and decide Brexit is now the best answer but why storm ahead now? Does it not make more sense to find out what our best options are once this is over and allow our leaders to dedicate their time to saving lives, our economy and making sure people are paid, fed and watered.

 

Do tell how further uncertainty for 3 years is going to help anyone in business ??? We've already blamed Brexit uncertainty on much havent we so how is continuing that helping now or when we beat the China Virus ??? I think what you really mean but prolly feel uncomfortable saying is that the China Virus should stop Brexit permanently , you have said it elsewhere havent ya ??? China Virus seems to serve a purpose for you with your ongoing Brexit obsession , not content with claims of drug shortage scares and chlorinated chicken and food shortages you now have China Virus ... By the way "our PM" who you normally mock for working on anything and call a liar etc etc probably isnt "working" on Brexit is he , his team will be thats dedicated to it but I think its safe to say the China Virus is prolly our PMs main focus , strange how your concerned about what Boris is working on when you have called him all those things though I have to say

 

Now Mr Birdbrain you are being a silly billy aren't you? Three years further status quo will offer business certainty while we try and get through the biggest health and economic crisis the world has probably ever faced. If you had read my reasoned post properly you would realise that its not some devious plan to steal away your beloved Brexit but simply to put it to one side while we deal with much more important matters like protecting millions of lives and securing the economy as best we can. The short transition period most people thought was way too short anyway to agree a proper extensive trade deal but now its just pie in the sky and should we go ahead it will almost certainly be on a no deal basis. Business would not have thanked you for that before but they certainly wont now, imagine the effects it will have while we are in the middle of this sh1tstorm.

 

I have no obsession with Brexit anymore. It was a ridiculous notion and it seems even more farcical now under the current circumstances. It will indeed require massive resources from both sides of the channel and yes right up to Prime Ministerial and presidential level. Who the feck has time for that now? Its just not that important. Why would you fiddle while Rome burns?

 

Apologies ... Your "reasoned post" is just that ... 3 more years of the uncertainty we've just been through with Brexit end game will attract many foreign investors im sure ... Im still slightly confused why you say Brexit delay on here yet call for Brexit to be stopped on another station ... You'll explain im sure

 

I think you are mistaken. My view above is the same where ever I may have posted it. I think I have also stated that when we come out of the other side of all this that it could be that Brexit may make sense but it could equally make even less sense. The thing is we just do not know how each country will fair and which trading blocs etc, will be in better fettle than others a year down the line. We should keep our options open which means extending our transition.

 

 

You know full well I aren't mistaken either with what you have said elsewhere or your motives for calling a delay

[Brian Kirby]

Nicepix - 2020-03-25 10:10 AM...………………....

The post I was replying to had links supposedly answering the point about firms leaving the UK because of Brexit. The link was actually a list of firms who were re-locating for a myriad of reasons, some of which were because of Brexit. Others weren't. Businesses move for a variety of reasons and at the moment Ireland is offering some very tasty tax incentives to new businesses or those existing businesses who re-locate there. I am sure that there will be companies who see a post Brexit UK as a good place to do business.

Agreed. But, in much the same vein, it cannot be claimed that Brexit was not part of the mix when firms were considering how best, from their own business viewpoint, to respond to the ill-defined inevitability of Brexit. That is my point.

 

Brexit pastes into the UK economy a large number of still, even three and a half years later, unresolved issues. Its proponents have always been clear as to its advantages, but have never produced economic models or forecasts to demonstrate where those advantages lie, or how or when they might materialise.

 

OTOH, numerous economists and institutions have modelled Brexit forecasts that show economic disadvantage. Maybe I'm an optimist, but I see the EU as an institution that is constantly (just as are its individual member states) in flux, both economically and politically, and I see that perpetual flux as the ground on which the EU can be persuaded to abandon some of its shibboleths and modify some of its policies, in response to events. What I see is Simple Simon who, when asked by the pieman for his penny, answered, "indeed, I have not any". He got no pie. I fear that we shall all find ourselves in the same boat, and I still see no evidence to the contrary - just assertions that it will be "alright on the night". Considering what is at stake, it's not good enough, really, is it?

 

Let us stick to facts; Brexit hasn't been completed yet so the doom-mongering has yet to be proven. What is a known fact is that after 31st December as it stands the UK will no longer have to pay its annual fee to the EU nor will UK consumers have to contribute to the EU coffers 80% of any import duties and 0.3% of any VAT. That figure has been estimated at almost €40 billion. You sill find reference to it in the EU budget projections.

But in pursuit of fact, Brexit has been completed. We have left. It is the process of agreeing our future relationship with the EU that is not completed, for which the withdrawal agreement provides a three year window. Do we need three years? Possibly not. But I am as clear as I can be that trying to force those negotiations into the next nine months, in the face of the enormous, unquantifiable, political, social, and economic, upheavals that the Coronavirus pandemic is currently imposing on all the negotiating parties, is a complete fools errand. IMO, to coin a phrase, we should be stark, staring, bonkers to attempt to do so.

 

On costs, you don't cite your sources, so I can not know their validity. However, as I'm sure you know, there are various ways to calculate the net cost of our membership, giving slightly different answers. The best I can find gives a figure that, for 2019, is £8.9 billion - including the rebate and the public sector receipts, but excluding private sector receipts such as research grants (£2.3 billion in 2016). These are based on Treasury/ONS figures. The EC calculates differently and arrives at a somewhat lower figure. Link to Full Fact here: https://tinyurl.com/hmszzyl But, it is not a zero sum game, and we are likely to have to pay for Single Market access post Brexit, as well as in cash or in kind for access to other markets as we negotiate trade deals elsewhere. So until all the "i"s are dotted and the "t"s crossed (and we have a few years experience of trading under the new relationships), the numbers seem to me too flaky to rely on in either direction. We each have to decide whether that is a sound basis to proceed. To me, it is emphatically not - to the point of being foolhardy.

 

Another fact is that the UK will no longer have to obey laws and rules imposed by Brussels. I don't know if you are aware of how these laws come about but they are instigated by policy leaders within the EU and then put out to a vote by MEPs. There are records of how many of these proposals the UK voted against only to see them imposed. As in the UK Parliament there are ways to influence MPs to vote however the Government wants.

As a fact, the notion of "imposed by Brussels" is hyperbole. Some, but not all, regulations and directives are adopted as you describe. Some are proposed by the parliament, others by the Council. All have to be adopted by two of the institutions, meaning that democratically elected representatives of the member states are involved in the decision, either the MEPs, or the relevant ministers of the member states in Council. All are drafted by the Commission, which comprises members from all member states, nominated by the states. Again, you do not source your records, so I can have no idea where they actually come from. However, it would be something greater than miraculous if, out of a group of 28 member states, each trying to reconcile its national interest with that of the collective, one member state always emerged victorious. Give and take? You seem to have unrealistic expectations of what the UK alone should achieve. What is more to the point is not the number count, but whether, and if so which, such regulations and directives have actually proved counter to the UK's national interest.

 

Next year the UK will not have to adopt any of those EU laws but may choose to bring them into UK law if it suits. If you haven't already, read the EU publication; Three visions, one direction published a couple of years ago. It shows the direction the EU wishes to move; every member state adopting the € whether they want to or not, an EU army and centralised tax collections and an EU finance minister over riding member states own Chancellor's policiies. Frightening!

What happens in practice next year will be determined largely by the outcome of the withdrawal negotiations. The agreement presently says, in principle, that if we do not reciprocate on such new regulations and directives, or break away from those already in existence, we stand to lose our Single market access rights. I hope this would be subject to negotiation, probably involving adjustment to market access payments. But, that is where the agreement negotiated by the UK government leaves us.

 

I hadn't previously seen the Three Visions One direction document, but now have. Thank you. Having read it, I do not see the threats you do. An undertaking on the part of the more recent accession states to adopt the € was written into the agreements they all signed on accession. Britain has a permanent opt out on the €, so it would not have affected us were we to have stayed. I see no coercion as you imply, just a desire to bring them to € membership as soon as possible. There is no "army" proposed, just an agreement to pool national forces to create what amounts to an "EU-NATO" for the collective defence of the EU member states, that can also contribute to NATO actions collectively rather than individually as at present. I don't see that as a source of fear. The tax proposals seem to me designed to avert individual states playing with their tax regimes to gain unfair competitive advantage. I don't see why that would be bad, even assuming it could be agreed - which I somehow doubt, except possibly in small areas of taxation. There is a need for an EU finance minister to be able to over-rule the irresponsible actions of some of the member states. It is politically difficult, as you acknowledge, but since all member states value their ability to manage their own affairs at least as much as the UK values its ability to do so, how likely is the appointment of some fire breathing super minister? His powers could only be what the member states granted, and I don't see that being any greater than to impose levies for gross breaches of collectively agreed disciplines. The document dates from 2017, the year after the UK's Brexit vote (when the EU was seeking to deal with the impact of Brexit), the year of Macron's election as President of France (before his tiff with the Gilets Jaunes), and the year before Angela Merkel lost her grip on the Bundestag. Juncker retired as EU Commission President in 2019 and was replaced by Ursula von der Leyen. Times, and circumstances, change. It is a discussion piece. It is those with influence laying out their individual visions to generate debate. It is interesting, but it is not a statement of EU policy.

 

Similarly the UK will not be subservient to EU rules and laws so that it can decide its own immigration policy. That might come in useful when Turkey eventually run out of patience and release the 3.6 million refugees they are currently holding back.

True, but as non-signatories to Schengen, we have always had the power to set our own immigration policy insofar as the non-EU world is concerned, and could legitimately have considerably tightened the application of the EU freedom of movement directive, had we so chosen. That we did neither reflects the will of UK governments and our parliament, and nothing of the will of the EU.

 

I do not see any direct threat to the UK from the refugees currently in Turkey. Even under our present status in transition, so still working within the EU freedom of movement directive, we are entitled to accept or reject applicants for refugee status, and to deport any who enter illegally. Because they may enter Schengen does not make them EU citizens, and, not being EU citizens, they do not have rights of entry to the UK.

[Barryd999]

Birdbrain - 2020-03-26 12:09 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-03-26 11:24 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-03-25 6:09 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-03-25 1:54 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-03-25 6:44 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-03-25 5:27 AM

 

The way I see it now is we have to forget most of the old arguments about Brexit and accept that our world has already changed for ever.

 

Nobody knows how we will all come out the other side of this and how each country will fair. One things for sure Covid 19 and the fallout from that will be far from over when our time comes to officially leave proper. Who really wants our PM and his team working on that then? A three year extension of transition would make more sense. Business as usual on trade and customs until we work out how the land lies in the aftermath of this. I just think its impossible otherwise now.

 

Think of this though, if we come out of all this much worse off than other countries in the EU because our tactics failed might not our feelings towards being in the bloc change? We might actually need them more than they need us then. Could go the other way of course. We could come out of it smelling of roses and decide Brexit is now the best answer but why storm ahead now? Does it not make more sense to find out what our best options are once this is over and allow our leaders to dedicate their time to saving lives, our economy and making sure people are paid, fed and watered.

 

Do tell how further uncertainty for 3 years is going to help anyone in business ??? We've already blamed Brexit uncertainty on much havent we so how is continuing that helping now or when we beat the China Virus ??? I think what you really mean but prolly feel uncomfortable saying is that the China Virus should stop Brexit permanently , you have said it elsewhere havent ya ??? China Virus seems to serve a purpose for you with your ongoing Brexit obsession , not content with claims of drug shortage scares and chlorinated chicken and food shortages you now have China Virus ... By the way "our PM" who you normally mock for working on anything and call a liar etc etc probably isnt "working" on Brexit is he , his team will be thats dedicated to it but I think its safe to say the China Virus is prolly our PMs main focus , strange how your concerned about what Boris is working on when you have called him all those things though I have to say

 

Now Mr Birdbrain you are being a silly billy aren't you? Three years further status quo will offer business certainty while we try and get through the biggest health and economic crisis the world has probably ever faced. If you had read my reasoned post properly you would realise that its not some devious plan to steal away your beloved Brexit but simply to put it to one side while we deal with much more important matters like protecting millions of lives and securing the economy as best we can. The short transition period most people thought was way too short anyway to agree a proper extensive trade deal but now its just pie in the sky and should we go ahead it will almost certainly be on a no deal basis. Business would not have thanked you for that before but they certainly wont now, imagine the effects it will have while we are in the middle of this sh1tstorm.

 

I have no obsession with Brexit anymore. It was a ridiculous notion and it seems even more farcical now under the current circumstances. It will indeed require massive resources from both sides of the channel and yes right up to Prime Ministerial and presidential level. Who the feck has time for that now? Its just not that important. Why would you fiddle while Rome burns?

 

Apologies ... Your "reasoned post" is just that ... 3 more years of the uncertainty we've just been through with Brexit end game will attract many foreign investors im sure ... Im still slightly confused why you say Brexit delay on here yet call for Brexit to be stopped on another station ... You'll explain im sure

 

I think you are mistaken. My view above is the same where ever I may have posted it. I think I have also stated that when we come out of the other side of all this that it could be that Brexit may make sense but it could equally make even less sense. The thing is we just do not know how each country will fair and which trading blocs etc, will be in better fettle than others a year down the line. We should keep our options open which means extending our transition.

 

 

You know full well I aren't mistaken either with what you have said elsewhere or your motives for calling a delay

 

I Dont. I just dont!! Motives? You think this is some dastardly remoaner plan to somehow stop Brexit? Dont be daft. Its just common sense. For the fiftieth time though. I dont care about Brexit. Its just not important now which is why it shouldnt be something our government has to deal with until this crisis is over. I dunno what you think you have read elsewhere but I bet without looking Ive just said the same.