Birdbrain Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-06-12 6:25 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-12 6:17 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-12 6:11 PM We were certainly taught about slavery and that was in the 60’s. Were you taught to apologise for it daily though ... Taught to beg forgiveness from every black person you met ... I think thats what they want and not just the blacks I Dont think it is. I dunno why everyone and the media has latched onto this statue thing. Well I do as it causes division and headlines but the protests initially were about the here and now and the future. The inequality, safety, police and justice system, not being angry about statues from two hundred years ago. It makes no difference now though, its all going to end badly it seems. Do remember you support the statue removal ... The media Barry hasn't "latched onto this statue thing" , the public has ... They dont want criminals tearing down history without process , you seem OK with it which speaks volumes about you as a person ... What "inequality" by the way ??? , I did ask you elsewhere but you didn't answer , sorry that was "white privilege" wasn't it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-12 6:17 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-12 6:11 PM We were certainly taught about slavery and that was in the 60’s. Were you taught to apologise for it daily though ... Taught to beg forgiveness from every black person you met ... I think thats what they want and not just the blacks I don't agree. What I think they want is see and feel an even deal. Racism takes many forms, and racism is their underlying complaint. If you missed Monday's "Sitting in Limbo", at 20:30 on BBC 1, see if you can pick it up off i-player, and put yourself in Bryan's shoes, bearing in mind that Bryan is just one of many. Then ask yourself if you'd not feel somewhat aggrieved and resentful at your treatment. Add in that you are more likely to have had, and die from, Covid-19 than your white counterparts, and that the government seems reluctant to publish the results of their own investigation of that phenomenon. Then add in Floyd's death in the US at the hands of the local police, and wonder if you might not begin to imagine that there is a conspiracy against you because of the colour of your skin. If you were part of a group of people for whom all those things ring true, might you not begin think about how you got here, and how you got to be in the West Indies, and whether the time had come to right some wrongs? These things have been discussed for decades, but little has been done to address the grievances. It's the all too old, "too little, too late", story. So, we now have people demonstrating on the streets, and the hot-heads going stupid. Good grief, even the Grenfell Tower fire is now being cited as evidence of colour prejudice. Of course we all have to face up to what we did in the past, but trying to point the finger back and saying "you were as bad as us", as a way of trying to deflect the truth, is hardly going to calm things down, is it? Yes, they will have, very gently, to be told that their forbears were also implicated in the slave trade, and that even as little as 300 years ago the ownership of slaves was widely accepted in many societies, but we can't use that as a way to duck responsibility for our own involvement. The real point is that they are still suffering discrimination for much the same reasons as they were taken as slaves. That they don't look like us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-06-12 7:21 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-12 6:17 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-12 6:11 PM We were certainly taught about slavery and that was in the 60’s. Were you taught to apologise for it daily though ... Taught to beg forgiveness from every black person you met ... I think thats what they want and not just the blacks I don't agree. What I think they want is see and feel an even deal. Racism takes many forms, and racism is their underlying complaint. If you missed Monday's "Sitting in Limbo", at 20:30 on BBC 1, see if you can pick it up off i-player, and put yourself in Bryan's shoes, bearing in mind that Bryan is just one of many. Then ask yourself if you'd not feel somewhat aggrieved and resentful at your treatment. Add in that you are more likely to have had, and die from, Covid-19 than your white counterparts, and that the government seems reluctant to publish the results of their own investigation of that phenomenon. Then add in Floyd's death in the US at the hands of the local police, and wonder if you might not begin to imagine that there is a conspiracy against you because of the colour of your skin. If you were part of a group of people for whom all those things ring true, might you not begin think about how you got here, and how you got to be in the West Indies, and whether the time had come to right some wrongs? These things have been discussed for decades, but little has been done to address the grievances. It's the all too old, "too little, too late", story. So, we now have people demonstrating on the streets, and the hot-heads going stupid. Good grief, even the Grenfell Tower fire is now being cited as evidence of colour prejudice. Of course we all have to face up to what we did in the past, but trying to point the finger back and saying "you were as bad as us", as a way of trying to deflect the truth, is hardly going to calm things down, is it? Yes, they will have, very gently, to be told that their forbears were also implicated in the slave trade, and that even as little as 300 years ago the ownership of slaves was widely accepted in many societies, but we can't use that as a way to duck responsibility for our own involvement. The real point is that they are still suffering discrimination for much the same reasons as they were taken as slaves. That they don't look like us. Your making excuses ... Who's ducking responsibility exactly ??? ... "they dont look like us" ... Who the fig is "us" ??? , because in many parts of Britain Brian , maybe not sleepy East Sussex they look a lot like us and fit in well ... Me thinks pretty much like 'whites only village Barry' you have no idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-12 6:40 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-12 6:25 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-12 6:17 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-12 6:11 PM We were certainly taught about slavery and that was in the 60’s. Were you taught to apologise for it daily though ... Taught to beg forgiveness from every black person you met ... I think thats what they want and not just the blacks I Dont think it is. I dunno why everyone and the media has latched onto this statue thing. Well I do as it causes division and headlines but the protests initially were about the here and now and the future. The inequality, safety, police and justice system, not being angry about statues from two hundred years ago. It makes no difference now though, its all going to end badly it seems. Do remember you support the statue removal ... The media Barry hasn't "latched onto this statue thing" , the public has ... They dont want criminals tearing down history without process , you seem OK with it which speaks volumes about you as a person ... What "inequality" by the way ??? , I did ask you elsewhere but you didn't answer , sorry that was "white privilege" wasn't it WTF? I dont support the removal of statues or vandalism. I think I said I was pleased to see the one of Colston go but mainly because of the fact that it probably taught millions of people in one day more than the history books have in decades about our dodgy past in the Slave trade and I also thought it was quite funny. That should have been it though really. Point made. 99% of these protesters are not going around ripping up statues of anyone vaguely racist but that doesnt matter anymore. The nutters have latched onto it as have the media. The do gooder PC brigade have made matters worse by now starting to remove even TV programs from 40 years ago that might be deemed offensive (probably by nobody at all) which has played right into the hands of the Billy Britain club. You only have to go and look at Twitter and Facebook to see what a massive fail that has been. I said it was doomed from the start and I keep saying it. Its clear there is inequality if you are Black and chances are you will be subject to unequal treatment by the police, the law courts and in society in general than if you were white. Thats just how it is. That is what this should have focused on but that opportunity has gone now. What happens next could well be a blood bath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-06-12 9:39 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-12 6:40 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-12 6:25 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-12 6:17 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-12 6:11 PM We were certainly taught about slavery and that was in the 60’s. Were you taught to apologise for it daily though ... Taught to beg forgiveness from every black person you met ... I think thats what they want and not just the blacks I Dont think it is. I dunno why everyone and the media has latched onto this statue thing. Well I do as it causes division and headlines but the protests initially were about the here and now and the future. The inequality, safety, police and justice system, not being angry about statues from two hundred years ago. It makes no difference now though, its all going to end badly it seems. Do remember you support the statue removal ... The media Barry hasn't "latched onto this statue thing" , the public has ... They dont want criminals tearing down history without process , you seem OK with it which speaks volumes about you as a person ... What "inequality" by the way ??? , I did ask you elsewhere but you didn't answer , sorry that was "white privilege" wasn't it Its clear there is inequality if you are Black and chances are you will be subject to unequal treatment by the police, the law courts and in society in general than if you were white. Thats just how it is. That is what this should have focused on but that opportunity has gone now. What happens next could well be a blood bath. Back to where this issue actually began......there will certainly be a blood bath if Chauvin isn't sent down for a decent length of time. Whilst i agree he's entitled to his pension i was staggered to see its as much as $1 million. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/12/us/chauvin-minneapolis-police-pension-invs/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-06-12 9:39 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-12 6:40 PM Barryd999 - 2020-06-12 6:25 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-12 6:17 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-12 6:11 PM We were certainly taught about slavery and that was in the 60’s. Were you taught to apologise for it daily though ... Taught to beg forgiveness from every black person you met ... I think thats what they want and not just the blacks I Dont think it is. I dunno why everyone and the media has latched onto this statue thing. Well I do as it causes division and headlines but the protests initially were about the here and now and the future. The inequality, safety, police and justice system, not being angry about statues from two hundred years ago. It makes no difference now though, its all going to end badly it seems. Do remember you support the statue removal ... The media Barry hasn't "latched onto this statue thing" , the public has ... They dont want criminals tearing down history without process , you seem OK with it which speaks volumes about you as a person ... What "inequality" by the way ??? , I did ask you elsewhere but you didn't answer , sorry that was "white privilege" wasn't it WTF? I dont support the removal of statues or vandalism. I think I said I was pleased to see the one of Colston go but mainly because of the fact that it probably taught millions of people in one day more than the history books have in decades about our dodgy past in the Slave trade and I also thought it was quite funny. That should have been it though really. Point made. 99% of these protesters are not going around ripping up statues of anyone vaguely racist but that doesnt matter anymore. The nutters have latched onto it as have the media. The do gooder PC brigade have made matters worse by now starting to remove even TV programs from 40 years ago that might be deemed offensive (probably by nobody at all) which has played right into the hands of the Billy Britain club. You only have to go and look at Twitter and Facebook to see what a massive fail that has been. I said it was doomed from the start and I keep saying it. Its clear there is inequality if you are Black and chances are you will be subject to unequal treatment by the police, the law courts and in society in general than if you were white. Thats just how it is. That is what this should have focused on but that opportunity has gone now. What happens next could well be a blood bath. Of course you support the removal of statues and vandalism "I was pleased" and "thought it was quite funny" ??? ... Thats you condemning it I suppose ... As for black inequality you know nothing and just by saying "black inequality" you put down the majority who are hard working , decent folk just as you do with racist crap like 'white privilege" which you back up with nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-06-12 7:31 PM...............…. Can we take this one step at a time? :-D Your making excuses ... Excuses for what, or who? Who's ducking responsibility exactly ??? ... All of those who don't want to accept that the slave trade was an abomination. "they dont look like us" ... Who the fig is "us" ??? , "Us" is/was the predominantly Caucasian majority who traded slaves into the Americas. because in many parts of Britain Brian , maybe not sleepy East Sussex they look a lot like us and fit in well ... Who the fig is "us"? Me thinks pretty much like 'whites only village Barry' you have no idea If you think "sleepy East Sussex" has no ethnic minorities, as your comment seems to imply, you merely demonstrate that you "have no idea". But what on earth is your point? What is it that you are trying to say? Did you actually preview that post before submitting it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 I think you are making excuses for Blacks if they”imagine “ a conspiracy against them. Slavery has always been more than just Blacks being sold to the Americas, and Britain particularly has done more than most to stamp it out. We don’t have to face up to what previous generations did. We can acknowledge it and change the future but dismantling statues doesn’t change the past. Just because some people feel hard done by doesn’t mean we all have to tip toe around them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 I don't think racial prejudice is the product of imagination, as you seem to be implying. I have seen it at work, and heard it at first hand. I'd be surprised if anyone, of whatever colour, who has lived in the UK during the 50's and 60's (and later) has not encountered it during their working lifetimes. Regarding statues, of course getting rid of those that celebrate people involved with slaving, however indirectly, won't change today's racial prejudices. I have already made that point. I suspect that until the association with slavery of those to whom statues have been erected was pointed out, most people passed them by seeing only their names, or possibly a plaque celebrating the good causes they'd supported, and assumed them great heroes or benefactors. But that completely disregards the other side of the ledger: the price paid by the countless anonymous people they transported into servitude. Equally, of course slavery is more than selling blacks to the Americas. The point, surely, is that during the Atlantic "triangular trade" Britain is estimated to have shipped just over 3.25 million people (second only to Portugal) across to America and the Caribbean over the 300 years the trade operated. So yes, we should acknowledge that, and maybe some of the statues of those who played a major part in that trade should be removed to less prominent locations to that end, or, and I think better, have plaques attached to their plinths that deal with the sources of the wealth they so generously bestowed in the UK. I think this goes far, far, deeper than "a few people feeling hard done by". Racial discrimination is still with us and, I'm sorry to say, passages in your own post, such as that which I quoted above, flirt dangerously with it - whether intentionally or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-06-13 3:27 PM I don't think racial prejudice is the product of imagination, as you seem to be implying. I have seen it at work, and heard it at first hand. I'd be surprised if anyone, of whatever colour, who has lived in the UK during the 50's and 60's (and later) has not encountered it during their working lifetimes. Regarding statues, of course getting rid of those that celebrate people involved with slaving, however indirectly, won't change today's racial prejudices. I have already made that point. I suspect that until the association with slavery of those to whom statues have been erected was pointed out, most people passed them by seeing only their names, or possibly a plaque celebrating the good causes they'd supported, and assumed them great heroes or benefactors. But that completely disregards the other side of the ledger: the price paid by the countless anonymous people they transported into servitude. Equally, of course slavery is more than selling blacks to the Americas. The point, surely, is that during the Atlantic "triangular trade" Britain is estimated to have shipped just over 3.25 million people (second only to Portugal) across to America and the Caribbean over the 300 years the trade operated. So yes, we should acknowledge that, and maybe some of the statues of those who played a major part in that trade should be removed to less prominent locations to that end, or, and I think better, have plaques attached to their plinths that deal with the sources of the wealth they so generously bestowed in the UK. I think this goes far, far, deeper than "a few people feeling hard done by". Racial discrimination is still with us and, I'm sorry to say, passages in your own post, such as that which I quoted above, flirt dangerously with it - whether intentionally or not. You previously said one would imagine if there was a conspiracy because of the colour of their skin. I’m not implying that it is so. There are people who are motivated because of skin colour,but this has nothing to do with slavery. The brutality of American police in this particular event is outrageous but widespread in America no matter what colour you are. Even white guys are called “ boy” by American police. There seems to be a lack of proper training for American Police officers, it’s shoot first ask questions later. Slavery s not just about Black Africans , it’s been going on since Adam and Eve, so I don’t feel it’s helpful to look at past events and need to say sorry for the past. My ancestors had a Tailor shop in Paris which was closed down during the French Revolution, perhaps I should get an apology from the French Government. There will always be discrimination, Education is the best way to defeat it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-06-13 4:09 PM...………………..You previously said one would imagine if there was a conspiracy because of the colour of their skin. I’m not implying that it is so. Sorry, the context was not apparent, and you have have selected a phrase where I think the context is important. The full quote is: "If you missed Monday's "Sitting in Limbo", at 20:30 on BBC 1, see if you can pick it up off i-player, and put yourself in Bryan's shoes, bearing in mind that Bryan is just one of many. Then ask yourself if you'd not feel somewhat aggrieved and resentful at your treatment. Add in that you are more likely to have had, and die from, Covid-19 than your white counterparts, and that the government seems reluctant to publish the results of their own investigation of that phenomenon. Then add in Floyd's death in the US at the hands of the local police, and wonder if you might not begin to imagine that there is a conspiracy against you because of the colour of your skin." The three paragraphs together lead to my conjecture that someone to whom all three seem relevant might "begin to imagine that there is a conspiracy against you because of the colour of your skin." There are people who are motivated because of skin colour, but this has nothing to do with slavery. Yes, but, for those in the UK of Caribbean or possibly African, origin, I would imagine they might well see slavery as relevant to their present circumstances. Especially if they have also been subjected to the kind of treatment that Mr Bryan was shown being subjected to in the above programme. The brutality of American police in this particular event is outrageous but widespread in America no matter what colour you are. Even white guys are called “boy” by American police. There seems to be a lack of proper training for American Police officers, it’s shoot first ask questions later. Agreed, although it seems their behaviour varies widely because they are not trained to a uniform standard. Slavery is not just about Black Africans, it’s been going on since Adam and Eve, so I don’t feel it’s helpful to look at past events and need to say sorry for the past. Except that the past inevitably provides a persuasive context for the present. That context gives us "form", so I can understand that those who find themselves being discriminated against begin to perceive a link between our history and their present treatment by us. I don't think the excuse that "everyone did it" is likely to prove very persuasive. My ancestors had a Tailor shop in Paris which was closed down during the French Revolution, perhaps I should get an apology from the French Government. Very funny - but not quite in the same league as being enslaved and then shipped 3,000 miles across the Atlantic to be serially brutalised. :-) There will always be discrimination, Education is the best way to defeat it. Amen to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-06-13 3:27 PM I don't think racial prejudice is the product of imagination, as you seem to be implying. I have seen it at work, and heard it at first hand. I'd be surprised if anyone, of whatever colour, who has lived in the UK during the 50's and 60's (and later) has not encountered it during their working lifetimes. Regarding statues, of course getting rid of those that celebrate people involved with slaving, however indirectly, won't change today's racial prejudices. I have already made that point. I suspect that until the association with slavery of those to whom statues have been erected was pointed out, most people passed them by seeing only their names, or possibly a plaque celebrating the good causes they'd supported, and assumed them great heroes or benefactors. But that completely disregards the other side of the ledger: the price paid by the countless anonymous people they transported into servitude. Equally, of course slavery is more than selling blacks to the Americas. The point, surely, is that during the Atlantic "triangular trade" Britain is estimated to have shipped just over 3.25 million people (second only to Portugal) across to America and the Caribbean over the 300 years the trade operated. So yes, we should acknowledge that, and maybe some of the statues of those who played a major part in that trade should be removed to less prominent locations to that end, or, and I think better, have plaques attached to their plinths that deal with the sources of the wealth they so generously bestowed in the UK. I think this goes far, far, deeper than "a few people feeling hard done by". Racial discrimination is still with us and, I'm sorry to say, passages in your own post, such as that which I quoted above, flirt dangerously with it - whether intentionally or not. Do you ever give up ... Just exactly what has he said that flirts "dangerously" with racial discrimination ??? ... Nothing ... Hes said something you dont like and in a Brian attempt to shut that down you more or less scream 'Raciiiiiiiiist' to try to shut him up ... Lordy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-06-12 7:21 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-12 6:17 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-12 6:11 PM We were certainly taught about slavery and that was in the 60’s. Were you taught to apologise for it daily though ... Taught to beg forgiveness from every black person you met ... I think thats what they want and not just the blacks I don't agree. What I think they want is see and feel an even deal. Racism takes many forms, and racism is their underlying complaint. If you missed Monday's "Sitting in Limbo", at 20:30 on BBC 1, see if you can pick it up off i-player, and put yourself in Bryan's shoes, bearing in mind that Bryan is just one of many. Then ask yourself if you'd not feel somewhat aggrieved and resentful at your treatment. Just watched it. An excellent drama-doc which should be compulsory viewing. The actions of government ministers responsible for implementing such evil were utterly despicable and shameful, a stain this country can never erase. https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p08g29ff/sitting-in-limbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-06-13 10:00 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-12 7:21 PM Birdbrain - 2020-06-12 6:17 PM jumpstart - 2020-06-12 6:11 PM We were certainly taught about slavery and that was in the 60’s. Were you taught to apologise for it daily though ... Taught to beg forgiveness from every black person you met ... I think thats what they want and not just the blacks I don't agree. What I think they want is see and feel an even deal. Racism takes many forms, and racism is their underlying complaint. If you missed Monday's "Sitting in Limbo", at 20:30 on BBC 1, see if you can pick it up off i-player, and put yourself in Bryan's shoes, bearing in mind that Bryan is just one of many. Then ask yourself if you'd not feel somewhat aggrieved and resentful at your treatment. Just watched it. An excellent drama-doc which should be compulsory viewing. The actions of government ministers responsible for implementing such evil were utterly despicable and shameful, a stain this country can never erase. https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p08g29ff/sitting-in-limbo "a stain this country can never erase" ... Heres another ... https://theconversation.com/asian-grooming-gangs-how-ethnicity-made-authorities-wary-of-investigating-child-sexual-abuse-130099 and its still ongoing ... The actions of those responsible for ignoring "such evil were utterly despicable and shameful" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 Slavery has got absolutely nothing to do with racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-06-12 11:36 AM pelmetman - 2020-06-11 9:05 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-06-11 9:01 PM Yes, but I thought that was common knowledge, which is why I asked what your point was. It seems your point was simply to justify calling them hypocrites. So that's all solved then? :-S Not amongst BAME folk apprently *-) ....... Apparently so. But they are mostly young, and educated where? The UK doesn't exactly highlight our role in the slave trade in ordinary schools, and I'd guess that those educated in countries that were also involved don't find that top of their reading lists either. So their problem is liable to be that they are uninformed as to the extent to which their own forbears may also have had their fingers in the poo. To blame people for not knowing something that no-one has bothered to tell them about is unreasonable. The truth needs to be spoken, but that is going to be very difficult to do under present circumstances, because it will merely be seen as an attempt to whitewash our own past by deflecting the blame onto them. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, but it will be necessary to walk on eggshells if it doesn't have the effect of throwing petrol on a fire. So, after all that, what was your point? Just to point out the obvious truth about what others don't know? "The UK doesn't exactly highlight our role in the slave trade in ordinary schools" That's been our universities job ;-) ........... Along with trying to rewrite history by telling us slaves weren't used to build the pyramids *-) ......... Whilst more importantly ignoring the black African tribes part in facilitating the supply of slaves 8-) ........ https://www.quora.com/What-main-African-tribes-sold-other-Africans-into-the-slave-trade But hey blaming the Honky's is far easier than looking back into your own very nasty history :-| ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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