Wilmoths Motorhomes Southampton.

[FatFunFan]

Hello,

I'm new to the site and after some advice, please..

I bought a 3 year old Roller Team Zefiro 685, with less than 12,000 miles on the clock from Wilmoths.

I requested an MOT and a Warranty, expecting 6 months or maybe a year. I was given 2 years, which should have rung bells. I didn't ask for it to be Serviced, as I knew it wasn't due one.

I drove it away and two problems materialised. A hole in the roof, which had let so much was through, it had ruined the seat covers below and should have been very evident if a Habitation check had been carried out. The other was that the engine was sluggish and a Warning Message, 'Service Required' showed on the dashboard. We'd camped locally, so we took it straight back.

They fixed the hole in the roof, which was coming through the TV aerial. They told me that the engine problem was probably because the engine hadn't warmed up and as I'd only driven a few miles. I naively believed that this was possible.

I drove home but even after warming up the problem persisted and got far worse when I hit the major roads. The sluggishness at low speed turned into the engine going into 'Safe Mode', which became very dangerous on the Motorway. My new purchase was off the road for 3 weeks while I waited for it to be repaired. It turned out that the problem was Three 3 faulty fuel injectors.

I'm in no doubt that they were fully aware of the problem when they sold me the vehicle for the following reasons. Firstly, I can't believe that three went overnight at the same time. Secondly, in the words of someone very high up in Wilmoths, " We normally only give one year's Warranty" and I was initially given a certificate with one year on it, because 2 years was so unusual. Thirdly and most importantly, the staff member who had driven it from Guildford to Southampton had imediately booked it in for a service, even though it had only had one 100 miles previously. The Service intervals should be 36,000 miles not 100 miles.

When I went to use the Warranty, they informed me that the Warranty had been used earlier that day. So, without asking me, they'd used money from my Warranty to fix the roof, a problem that they should have mended during the Habitation check, they SAY they completed. I'm not even sure they did that, because there were a number of other problems I had to fix myself.

I've had an ongoing complaint with Wilmoths, but they won't issue me a Deadlock letter so that I can take it up with the Motor Ombudsman. I have to wait 8 weeks, which is now 8 days away.

I'm sure I have enough evidence to prove they knew they were selling me a vehicle with a major problem.

 

Anyway, my questions are;

Has anyone else had problems with this garage?

If the problem can't be resolved by the Ombudsman, what other legal remedies may I have?

Is 2 years Warranty normal?

Are they allowed to use my Warranty, which has a limited monetary value, to fix a problem that they should have already dealt with before giving it to me?

 

I've had one hell of a bad start to my Motorhome experience, so I'd be glad of any advice anyone can give me.

Thanks,

Paul.

 

[rayc]

FatFunFan - 2020-10-14 12:28 PM

 

Hello,

 

Anyway, my questions are;

Has anyone else had problems with this garage?

 

I'd be glad of any advice anyone can give me.

Thanks,

Paul.

 

To answer the first question above: I bought a new motorhome from them in 2017 and would not go anywhere near them in the future.

To answer the second question see my answer to the first one.

 

Have all the problems been resolved and is the vehicle performing as any reasonable person would expect taking into account its age, mileage and cost?

 

[FatFunFan]

Thank you for your reply.

Well yes the engine is now performing OK now.

 

But, my issues are;

I had 3 weeks when I couldn't use the vehicle.

With them using up a chunk of my Warranty to fix the roof and then another big chunk taken out to fix the engine. Both were problems that existed before I took possession of it. My Warranty has lost half its value already.

The vehicle was in such a bad condition, when I limped it to the Ford garage. It wouldn't start, when they asked me to move it, I was concerned so much with getting it starting, I didn't see a bit of metal sticking out and I took a gouge out of the side.

I don't think I should have to spend a morning mending bits they should have done during the Habitation check (if they actually did one) and my wife spend a similar time cleaning it.

And the biggest thing is that they think they can get away with selling a faulty vehicle and give an extra years Warranty to compensate for it.

 

If I sound angry, sorry, it's only because I am.

 

[rayc]

FatFunFan - 2020-10-14 1:56 PM

If I sound angry, sorry, it's only because I am.

 

I can quite understand how you feel. Looking on the positive side of things the vehicle is going ok now and I guess the second year of the warranty will have the full annual allowance? The advise I would give you is to end your reliance on Wilmoth's as soon as you can, of course any action with the Ombudsman is likely to sour any future interaction with them. If you need anything doing on your Roller Team speak to the people at Solent Motorhomes Poole https://www.solentmotorhomes.com

[FatFunFan]

I'm grateful for your advice.

[vindiboy]

FatFunFan - 2020-10-14 3:01 PM

 

I'm grateful for your advice.

Response from the owner a week ago

Hi Mr Steed, we are so sorry to hear about this. Please bare with me whilst I look into this and gather more information about this matter. I have just read this reply to the complaint on their Webb site, must say they are getting some bad revues ?

[Brian Kirby]

There won't be a straightforward answer to your question here, because it touches on too many different issues.

 

First, in the light of what you say regarding Wilmoths' performance, and the fact that you relied on their "warranty" in preference to your rights under consumer legislation, you will need advice on the extent to which you can now use consumer legislation.

 

Second, without knowledge of the "warranty" terms, no-one can offer advice on whether or not it has been used reasonably. "Warranties" of the type you got are more usually insurance contracts, and the right to claim should lie with you and not with whoever sells the "warranty". But, as it is a contract its limitations and benefits will be those stated in its terms and conditions: no more, no less.

 

Third, the diagnosis that three injectors had "failed" apparently came from a Ford dealer and not Wilmoths, and it is not clear how Wilmoths then came to use credit in your "warranty" to pay the Ford dealer.

 

Fourth, ditto the roof leak. Why should your "warranty" should have been used for that?

 

Fifth, I don't know what written documents you have, whether you bought the van "as seen", or on a normal SMMT contract of sale, or whether Wilmoths has explained, in writing, why they used the "warranty" to pay for repairs that, under consumer legislation, they were liable to carry out at their own cost - whether in whole or in part.

 

Sixth, whether a habitation service (this would not cover the chassis or Ford mechanicals servicing) was actually offered/requested and carried out whether free or at your cost, or whether you relied on the dealer's pre-delivery checks to identify and rectify any pre-existing faults.

 

Only three things seem to me reasonably clear.

 

First, that Wilmoths were legally liable to you, under consumer legislation, for any defects in the vehicle they delivered to you.

 

Second, that it is reasonable, from your description, to assume that the faults you have listed were present in the vehicle when it was delivered to you.

 

Third, that you really should contact Trading Standards over your experience and briefly explain what you have set out on here. I would expect this to result in a meeting with a solicitor, to which you should take copies of your contract of sale for the vehicle, the "warranty", any advertising material describing the vehicle that you may have relied on pre-sale, any subsequent correspondence you have since had with Wilmoths, ditto any notes of telephone conversations (dates, with whom, what was said, etc.), all of which you should have read carefully first - to be able to guide the solicitor to the salient points as you see them. TS won't take the case on your behalf, but should be able to advise whether, under present circumstances, you have a case against Wilmoths (which I think you should have) and how good they think that case might be.

 

My own reaction is that Wilmoths should, at least, reimburse the "warranty" credit they are now saying they expended putting right the faults that were, properly, their liability to put right, so as to put you back into the position you should have been in had they acted properly.

 

Finally, I would advise you to look through your home, contents, and vehicle insurances to see if any include legal expenses cover, as many now do. I would also suggest you cease any further contact with Wilmoths until you have at least spoken to Citizen;s Advice.

 

A further issue, that will presumably lie between Wilmoths and whoever issued the "warranty" (I assume an insurance company), would be whether, in selling the vehicle with pre-existing defects, they were within their rights to rely on the "warranty" at all for rectification. If I were that insurer, unless it is in the form of a blanket defects insurance that applies to all their stock at the point of sale, I'd be more than a mite miffed at what they appear to have done. I think I'd also be curious as to whether an insurance of that kind, where the insured party was Wilmoths, could fairly be represented to you as somehow "your" insurance. But, I definitely wouldn't go poking sticks down those particular hornet's nests until I had spoken to Trading Standards!

[Brian Kirby]

vindiboy - 2020-10-14 3:37 PM

 

FatFunFan - 2020-10-14 3:01 PM

 

I'm grateful for your advice.

Response from the owner a week ago

Hi Mr Steed, we are so sorry to hear about this. Please bare with me whilst I look into this and gather more information about this matter. I have just read this reply to the complaint on their Webb site, must say they are getting some bad revues ?

Just to say I'd stay well clear of anyone who invited me the "bare" with them. Whatever next? :-D

[FatFunFan]

Thank you very much Brian. I'm very grateful to you.

There's a lot there and I've read it through once and I'll go over it again in the morning.

I'm particularly keen on your Trading Standards suggestion, which is something I hadn't thought of.

Thanks again,

Paul.

[Derek Uzzell]

There’s a history of injector-related problems with Ford Transit Mk 8 Euro 6 powerplants, as this 2017 Ford Transit forum entry shows

 

https://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=178478&c=1

 

I notice that Paul has posted similar comments to the Trustpilot webpage

 

https://au.trustpilot.com/review/www.wilmothsmotorhomes.co.uk

[rayc]

I wondered how trustpilot came up with a trust score of three stars and 3.3 for Wilmoths from only one BAD review .

They clarify that:

"Bayesian Average. We use Bayesian average in the calculation to ensure that a business with few reviews starts off with a balanced TrustScore. This means that we automatically include the value of 7 reviews worth 3.5 stars each in all TrustScore calculations. As a business collects more reviews this becomes a smaller factor in the calculation."

 

 

 

 

[domf]

We also recently purchased a used 2016 Swift Bolero 744 motorhome from them and also had an issue that should have been avoided. GIven the van had been sitting since March I specifically asked for the leisure and vehicle battery to be checked and was assured that they 1) Would probably be OK as the solar would maintain them and 2) they would check them and replace if necessary.

 

We collected the van and I felt the leisure batteries were not performing. I invested in a tested and one scored 1% health, the other around 50%. I was unimpressed.

 

I returned the van and both batteries were swapped with no issues.

 

While away in Germany the 12V to the cigar lighter sockets in the living area failed. I traced this back to no output on that terminal from the PSU. On returning to Wilmoths the Sargent PSU was checked, a new one ordered (Sargent were showing repair time as 5 weeks) and the van returned in 3 days.

 

In summary, the post-sale support has been excellent. If the batteries had been tested and replaced, as requested, before we collected I would rate the entire experience as excellent. Andy the service manager is very helpful and while the work carried out has been minor the van has been left tidy on each occasion.

[vindiboy]

rayc - 2020-10-15 8:33 AM

I wondered how trustpilot came up with a trust score of three stars and 3.3 for Wilmoths from only one BAD review.

They clarify that:

"Bayesian Average. We use Bayesian average in the calculation to ensure that a business with few reviews starts off with a balanced TrustScore. This means that we automatically include the value of 7 reviews worth 3.5 stars each in all TrustScore calculations. As a business collects more reviews this becomes a smaller factor in the calculation."

Just like check a trade TV programme and local news showed a Member with logos of Check a Trade on his vehicle Fly Tipping in a local location, luckily the owner of the field caught him red handed and filmed it made him and his mate reload all the rubbish, and it was shown on TV , I contacted Check a Trade for their reaction and got a stock answer not very convincing either, I would not trust them or their reviews either.

[FatFunFan]

Brian Kirby - 2020-10-14 4:39 PM

vindiboy - 2020-10-14 3:37 PM

FatFunFan - 2020-10-14 3:01 PM

I'm grateful for your advice.

Response from the owner a week ago

Hi Mr Steed, we are so sorry to hear about this. Please bare with me whilst I look into this and gather more information about this matter. I have just read this reply to the complaint on their Webb site, must say they are getting some bad revues ?

Just to say I'd stay well clear of anyone who invited me the "bare" with them. Whatever next? :-D

Update.

Thanks again Brian for pointing me in this direction.

I just want to update you regarding my progress so far.

I contacted Trading Standards, whose first line of contact is 'Citizens Advice', who couldn't have been more helpful.

Their advice was as follows.

Firstly I have a very good case and even if Wilmoths successfully argue that their liability to have the damage repaired, all be it, under MY Warranty, they have to also compensate for 'Consequential Issues', which are covered under the Consumer Rights Act. i.e. As a consequence of the hole in the roof, the seat covers below it were badly damaged . The retailer is also liable for making good that damage.

I don't think I mentioned it in my first post, for risk of boring people, that when I limped my MH to Fords to get it repaired, it wouldn't start. I was in such a state trying to move it in a very packed car park, that I didn't notice a bit of metal sticking out and took a chunk out of the side. As I see it, that's also a 'Consequential issue'. If they hadn't sold me a faulty vehicle, I wouldn't have been in that Ford Garage, nursing a vehicle that didn't run.

I've still got to look into the Warranty issue, i.e. Does it cover problems that were there at the time of sale and does the Garage who sold the vehicle to me, have the right to claim of it.

So, on the advice of TS/CAB I've sent Wilmoths a Special Delivery letter stating my case, giving Wilmoths a number of options to resolve the issue, ranging across Compensation, Full repair or Return the vehicle for a full refund.

I'll update when/if I get a reply from Wilmoths.

I'd just like to repeat how impressed I was with the Citizen's Advice - Trading Standards. Unbelievably helpful and they deal with it as an ongoing case.

 

[FatFunFan]

Derek Uzzell - 2020-10-15 8:18 AM

 

There’s a history of injector-related problems with Ford Transit Mk 8 Euro 6 powerplants, as this 2017 Ford Transit forum entry shows

 

https://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=178478&c=1

Thank you for that Derek. It does seem to be a well publicised issue.

The way I see it, if the problem was that well known, Wilmoths would have been aware of it and I will be using that as part of my case if this matter does end up going to Court.

 

And yes, I did post the Reviews, which are all the truth, when Wilmoths wouldn't talk to me. 20 minutes after posting, I had someone high up in Wilmoths on the phone. I feel it's such a shame that I have to go to those lengths to prompt some action.

[FatFunFan]

domf - 2020-10-15 9:19 AM

 

We also recently purchased a used 2016 Swift Bolero 744 motorhome from them and also had an issue that should have been avoided. GIven the van had been sitting since March I specifically asked for the leisure and vehicle battery to be checked and was assured that they 1) Would probably be OK as the solar would maintain them and 2) they would check them and replace if necessary.

 

We collected the van and I felt the leisure batteries were not performing. I invested in a tested and one scored 1% health, the other around 50%. I was unimpressed.

 

I returned the van and both batteries were swapped with no issues.

 

While away in Germany the 12V to the cigar lighter sockets in the living area failed. I traced this back to no output on that terminal from the PSU. On returning to Wilmoths the Sargent PSU was checked, a new one ordered (Sargent were showing repair time as 5 weeks) and the van returned in 3 days.

 

In summary, the post-sale support has been excellent. If the batteries had been tested and replaced, as requested, before we collected I would rate the entire experience as excellent. Andy the service manager is very helpful and while the work carried out has been minor the van has been left tidy on each occasion.

Wow, domf. I admire your forgiving nature and positivity there.

All I read in that is that, like me, they failed you at the first hurdle. You then had to go to the bother and expense of buying an instrument to prove it and then you lost your vehicle while it was being rectified. For me, to do that, that's a day round trip to even drop it off.

The only positive I saw there was, Andy was helpful and they left the van tidy.

For me, domf's post just highlights how Wilmoths are happy to sell vehicles in a faulty condition to see if they can get away with it.

Or, perhaps I ought to start going to Church and being a bit more forgiving.

[FatFunFan]

I just wanted to post an update, just in case anyone else runs into problems with Wilmoths.

As previously stated, Trading Standards (CAB) have been very helpful, but their advice was to pursue all other avenues of resolution prior to taking legal action.

To that end I've contacted the Motor Ombudsman, who they tell me don't cover Motorhomes.

They advised me to contact the National Caravan Council, but Wilmoths have chosen not to affiliate themselves to ths organisation.

The Warranty that Wilmoths provide is underwritten by Fortegra, who are a Maltese Company. I contacted their arbitrator in Malta, but because Wilmoths are a UK company, they have no jurisdiction over them.

So I contacted the Financial Ombudsman in the UK, who as far as the financial side of it, cannot deal with it, as the actually victim is Fortegra, who are a Maltese Company.

So, Wilmoths have done their utmost to keep under everyone's radar and avoid detection.

At least I can say I've exhausted all other Avenues and can go back to Trading Standards.

Regards,

Paul.

[Brian Kirby]

FatFunFan - 2020-11-06 1:29 PM.................

So I contacted the Financial Ombudsman in the UK, who as far as the financial side of it, cannot deal with it, as the actually victim is Fortegra, who are a Maltese Company...........................

At least I can say I've exhausted all other Avenues and can go back to Trading Standards.

Regards,

Paul.

Actually, it seems Fortegra is an American company, based in Jacksonville, Florida, which has chosen to base its European business in Malta. Couldn't comment on why!! :-D

 

But, essentially, your quarrel is with the vendor, for their extraordinary decision to use the benefits of "your" "warranty" (in fact just an insurance policy) to make good defects in a vehicle they had sold you, which were (as I understand the legalities), their responsibility to rectify. I would expect the vendor to either have their own insurances to cover such eventualities, or to absorb such costs as an unavoidable overhead of the nature of the business they are in.

 

Unless the "warranty" you were presented with contains a clause to the effect that "should a vehicle sold by the vendor develop a defect, the vendor retains the right to use the benefit of the warranty to have the defect rectified" (or similar), they have, in effect stolen benefit from what appears to have been portrayed to you as your warranty - which I assume you are entitled to assume you paid for within the price paid for the vehicle.

 

On that assumption I think any financial benefit within that "warranty" was yours, and yours alone, offered as a beneficial inducement to buy - in addition to your normal consumer rights. If that is right, what the vendor did was outrageous.

 

I don't read this as an issue over consumer rights, but as something that falls between fraud and theft. Have you searched your house, contents, and vehicle insurances, to see if any provide a legal advisory service. If so, I'd turn to them for what they can do, or consult a lawyer privately. Under present financial uncertainties, I think I'd get that particular ball rolling PDQ!

[domf]

 

I'm finding it difficult to reconcile the service I've had from Wilmoths, post-sale, with that you have clearly received.

 

I have to say I admire your patience. At this stage, I would have written them a clear letter stating what needed fixing by when, together with the statement that if it was not done I would get it fixed and recover my costs. The online small claims court is remarkably straightforward to deal with and it is my experience that companies are likely to sort issues before it gets to that stage.

 

 

I should point out that I have no affiliation with Wilmoths (beyond being a satisfied customer) and have been pleasantly surprised with the speed with which issues have been resolved. I have made it clear that I have no interest in whether this is done through the insured warranty or not, as it is their responsibility to get the issues sorted. This they have done in an effective and friendly manner. I'm at a loss to explain our different experiences - maybe I was just lucky?

 

I wish you luck in getting this sorted.